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What's wrong with separatism?

  
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:23 / 14.05.03
I too am confused. I was under the impression that immigration to the UK has, in recent years, been offset by emigration from the UK. I also seem to recall some persuasive statistics which suggested that the UK actually needs immigrants since the relative youth of the incomers will help sort out the problems arising from our greying demographic.

Will try and scare up some figures.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
01:46 / 15.05.03
Easy international movement incourages trade to focus in the most efficient areas, creating zones that have a high draw for "economic migrants" and a ease of access to it.

Except that doesn't work in the case of big businesses like Starbucks and Borders, who MUST be who you're referring to in terms of their undermining smaller, local providers. I also note that the immigration question remains unanswered, except for scare quotes.
 
 
The Falcon
02:46 / 15.05.03
Not to defend Leap's untenable position, but immigrants can be differentiated from asylum seekers, no? The latter tend to be poorer and darker, methinks.

Remember when Haider got in in Austria what a fuss there was? But now his views are considered 'commonsensical', and not only by Leap here. How appalling.
 
 
Rage
04:31 / 15.05.03
I still say that separatism is happily subversive in places like Barbelith and Portland. While racial separatism isn't gonna go anywhere near progressive county, mental/psychic separatism can be quite a blast. You've heard it before, so this is the last time I'm saying it. Stop thinking that people who experiment with separatist perspectives are immature children, k? As a momentary separatist, I personally think that things could use a nice little speeding up. Unlike Leap, I don't think that things are going too fast. And unlike the majority of the posters on this board, I don't think that humanity should unite as one big family. I think that individuals willing to transcend humanity should get together. End of story.
 
 
Ganesh
07:24 / 15.05.03
Or beginning of story, if you're willing to explain mental/psychic separatism and transcend humanity in any more depth...
 
 
Rage
07:31 / 15.05.03
You can always ask lingustics. I don't need to prove myself to anyone. I know what I'm talking about, and so do you. I prefer to think that you're challenging as opposed to patronizing me here.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:32 / 15.05.03
And, my, how you have risen to the challenge!
 
 
No star here laces
08:45 / 15.05.03
Now don't get nasty just because you've been left on the non-enlightened side of the allotment, runce.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:46 / 15.05.03
There is, of course, always the possibility that it isn't the experimentation with separatist perspectives that makes people seem immature little children, of course....
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:11 / 15.05.03
I thought that what Leap was trying to say about business wasn't so much 'pesky economic migrants taking over our corner shops' as much as 'intervention by the West, both in the form of colonialism and as economic intervention by big business under the auspices of the WTO, IMF and the GATS treaty have undermined the economic basis of life in poorer countries to the extent that large numbers of the people are forced to flee as economic refugees' - or something like that at any rate - which is far more palatable and which quite a lot of us would agree with, I suspect.

Of course big business is also a major influence on the west, but it hasn't destroyed the existing infrastructure to that extent (tempted to add 'yet', but I think that is probably a dystopian vision too far).

However, I do not think economic refugees coming into Britain are a problem (indeed, if we are seeking a practical view of their presence, Mordant is likely to be correct when she says that immigrants are necessary if we are to maintain the current population (or even a slightly smaller population, I imagine) because of declining birth and mortality rates which create a substantial ageing population) and in fact I think the treatment of them by the government is shoddy and shameful - not to mention the abhorrent spectacle of the media using them as a scapegoat for, well, everything...

Leap will not care about declining or ageing populations, of course, but that's what we have.
 
 
Ganesh
09:13 / 15.05.03
Rage, I'm challenging you to explain those terms because I don't know exactly what you're talking about. A little less defensiveness, perhaps?
 
 
Rage
09:15 / 15.05.03
"And, my, how you have risen to the challenge!"

Prove to me that I need to prove myself on this. Am I asking you to explain what you mean by "risen to the challenge?" You can ask anyone to explain what they mean by anything, though it's simply a way to avoid the issue at hand. By asking you to explain what you mean by "risen to the challenge" I am avoiding the issue of explaining what I mean by mental/psychic separatism and transcending humanity. Why? Because I shouldn't have to explain myself. You guys know what I'm talking about. You just want to avoid it by asking me to devise footnotes. It's amazing how taboo this is at an Invisibles website. Baffling, even. You must be working on the zen thing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:24 / 15.05.03
Yes, I bet that if Grant Morrison were reading this he would be very disappointed. He probably is. He probably weeps tears of saltwater that, after all these years, those who live in a world touched by his testament remain unsure of exactly what is meant in any context by "transcending humanity".

Why have we forsaken him? Who among us was the first to drive the nails into his hands? Why do we always end up with my voice like this?

So, are we talking about turning into giant green timeworms and shit? Groovy...
 
 
Quantum
10:19 / 15.05.03
The UK's welfare system is a big draw for economic migrants, and is sometimes called 'The land of free money' by said migrants. (This is from personal experience working with asylum seekers in the jobcentre, so unfortunately no links to back myself up)
Political asylum seekers, fair enough- economic asylum isn't taken as a sufficient reason for asylum is it? AFAIK coming to the west because your country is poor, earning loads and going home to your (now less poor) family is frowned upon by the authorities. And rightly so.

Why is a separatist perspective taboo? Why is it any less respectable or tenable a position than liberalism for example? Because it's less popular?

Haus- the timeworms aren't green, haven't you seen Donnie Darko? They're kind of mirrored, and deny free will unless you're on God's path. Or something.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:30 / 15.05.03
Quantum: There are people who would disagree with you on the rights of economic migrants, but that is yet another discussion.

Part of what I get wound up at is the assumption that the UK is a soft spot, when reading the figures presents a different picture. Worldwide, it is poorer nations which take the majority of refugees and even within the EU, the UK is not particularly easy.

It is scapegoating and scaremongering, carried out by the major political parties and the press. People then believe it and we have a huge asylum "problem".
 
 
Leap
10:39 / 15.05.03
quantum -

The UK's welfare system is a big draw for economic migrants, and is sometimes called 'The land of free money' by said migrants. (This is from personal experience working with asylum seekers in the jobcentre, so unfortunately no links to back myself up)

Often it is the unminuted comments that are the most telling.....

Political asylum seekers, fair enough

And how many of them are created by the west's arms market (now that IS a statistic I would like to see!)?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:51 / 15.05.03
the timeworms aren't green, haven't you seen Donnie Darko?

Before I answer that, can I specify whether or not a negative will have me drummed out of Barbelith? I know all the lyrics to "Bone Machine", if it helps...
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
10:56 / 15.05.03
"Why do we always end up with my voice like this?"

I don't know. Because your fiction suit's default position is bully maybe?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:13 / 15.05.03
The arms trade is a big thing here- I mentioned above that another way to reduce economic migrancy, as well as political asylum seekers, might be more extensive foreign aid programs - basically to level off the standard of living a bit and encourage stability. Which is, as Leap says, potentially patronising, but then I'm a pragmatist - if I have to feel a bit bad about ploughing money made in part from exploiting the third world back into the third world to help create an environment people are less likely to want enough to get away from to leave their family, their culture and so forth, then there we go. Leap's suggestion that this be a temporary measure aimed at restitution is a very good one, though how you would quantify how much to give would be awkward...
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
11:23 / 15.05.03
I was just sayin' - and seem to have been proved right. Wrong on all counts by the way. Are those all the same person or have you aquired some kind of crazy legion of trolls over the years?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:28 / 15.05.03
It's always flattering when people believe that the most interesting thing they have to talk about is you...
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
11:30 / 15.05.03
That's not what I asked you.
 
 
Leap
11:43 / 15.05.03
Leap's suggestion that this be a temporary measure aimed at restitution is a very good one, though how you would quantify how much to give would be awkward...

And would it break our economy to do so (not a reason to avoid it, just a result to think on….)?

Off the top of my head it would probably be a 10 year programme to educate the disenfranchised population, of which ever country(s) we had shagged over, in the means of self support (agricultural college, animal husbandry, first aid, basic “DIY” skills, basic food cleanliness, basic sanitation knowledge, family planning) combined with a parallel support programme to construct water access and an efficient sewage treatment system that are all sustainable by the country in question without recourse to external ‘aid’. I remember hearing of a “rent-a-goat” scheme (buy a goat, lend it to one family, when it has had a kid that family keep the kid (and all of that kids offspring, to breed with neighbours in the scheme, and so increase their herds) and the older goat goes on to another family, and so on) which I would happily support but cannot find (gotta avoid charity scams to).

Combine that with moves like

i. not ripping them off through "international debt repayments"

ii not dumping out-of-date medicine there (under cover of "aid") in order to avoid paying "decommissioning fees" over here

iii. not selling them weapons beyond basic hunting rifles / shotguns

iv. not insisting they become part of the Globalist Empire of western trade Monopolies

v. not buying 'carbon rights' off them so that we can continue our own pollution levels

vi. not using them as a source of sweat shop labour that keeps their populations in a state of eternal servitude, but actually encourage self-sufficiency and local trade

and we might get somewhere....................just a thought
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:43 / 15.05.03
Kiss me Hecate: Haus kinda has attracted a legion of trolls, through arguably little fault of his own other than an inability to suffer fools gladly, and you just posted just like you were one of 'em. (Why not start a new thread entitled 'Haus is a baddie and makes children cry', or use the PM function?) So I can see why he made the mistake of assuming you were one, plus you are one of those who changes their name every month or so to something that doesn't resemble the last one in any sense - it's hard to keep up.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:59 / 15.05.03
Yeah - Rage is PMing me at the moment. It's not terribly productive, probably, but it's quieter at least.

Leap - those all sound like very interesting ideas, and certainly it would take a lot of effort and probably higher taxes/lower standard of living in the 1st world. Not being an economist, I don't know if it would break the 1st world - it would certainly have some curious effects - like the gap between the worth of a dollar in the first and third worlds would presumably close as higher capital growth in the third world fuelled living costs...would that mean labour markets went local again, or would companies simply not be able to produce anymore? As a crusty old git, I probably wouldn't weep if Nike, say, had to scale down it production of trainers and people became acculturated to buying a new pair only when the first was wearing out, but that's my prejudice - I imagine, conversely, that if the OUP couldn't sustain the costs of bookbinding materials I would get all crotchety...

In fact, leap, would you mind if I cut and pasted your six-point plan into a new thread in the Head Shop? I'm interested in the philosophical underpinning of foreign aid (is it workable, but also is it patronizing? Is it a sop to guilty westerners? Is it encouraging of dependency? Stuff like that) and how one might go about it...
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
12:03 / 15.05.03
That's unfair. It's been about three months. And they do resemble each other - you've just not been paying attention.
 
 
Leap
12:07 / 15.05.03
Haus –

In fact, leap, would you mind if I cut and pasted your six-point plan into a new thread in the Head Shop? I'm interested in the philosophical underpinning of foreign aid (is it workable, but also is it patronizing? Is it a sop to guilty westerners? Is it encouraging of dependency? Stuff like that) and how one might go about it...

Cut-n-post away.
 
 
Leap
13:06 / 15.05.03
Haus -

Leap - those all sound like very interesting ideas, and certainly it would take a lot of effort and probably higher taxes/lower standard of living in the 1st world.

You mean children might have to horror or horrors WALK to school instead of getting lifts (in what is increasingly a 4x4 school run)?! Or perhaps we might even have to not have “out of season fruit and veg” or cheap coffee / cocoa?!!

Although I oppose a general reliance upon taxation, I would wholeheartedly support a temporary taxation move to rebuild the countries that we shagged into the ground to get to be as wealthy as we are (it still surprises me that people who are paid 15K a year, have a TV, fridge, cooker, home, video, phone, internet access, frequent leisure activities and a car do NOT understand that compared to what the majority of the world have (or indeed COULD HAVE) they are phenomenally wealthy!).

Not being an economist, I don't know if it would break the 1st world

Any economists care to comment? Where has capitalist piglet gone?

- it would certainly have some curious effects - like the gap between the worth of a dollar in the first and third worlds would presumably close as higher capital growth in the third world fuelled living costs...would that mean labour markets went local again, or would companies simply not be able to produce anymore?

I think, as a layman, that production would reduce, and thus prices would rise, generating less wealth (lowering “standards of living”) but closing the gap between the super rich and the super poor. But Hey, I still find it vomit worthy that we idolise the beckhams and di-capiros of this world whilst they live lifestyles that are godlike compared to 80% of the world.

As a crusty old git, I probably wouldn't weep if Nike, say, had to scale down it production of trainers and people became acculturated to buying a new pair only when the first was wearing out, but that's my prejudice -

Hey, I would open a bottle [ocally produced real ale, natch ]!

I imagine, conversely, that if the OUP couldn't sustain the costs of bookbinding materials I would get all crotchety...

The alternative to “mass production” is NOT “no production”; it is reduced production (replace industrialised production with craftsman levels of production).
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:19 / 15.05.03
Mph, I was going to say that if the OUP couldn't afford to produce full cloth bindings they could produce sewn copies which people could have bound or not as they wished... (and though I might not drop everything and retrain as a bookbinder, I would be sorely tempted)

it still surprises me that people who are paid 15K a year, have a TV, fridge, cooker, home, video, phone, internet access, frequent leisure activities and a car do NOT understand that compared to what the majority of the world have (or indeed COULD HAVE) they are phenomenally wealthy!).

I think people do understand this, but that other factors can create dissatisfaction - there was a thread over in the Switchboard a while back which had a link to an article about some research which showed that the problem is not so much lack of wealth (once you earn more than say £15000 p.a. or perhaps a bit less/more depending on the cost of living) but the gap between what you earn and person x earns, and that this is why people who earn say £40000 are not substantially happier with their lot than those who earn £20000. I think that's what it said at any rate... the drive for consumption and competition, and perceptions of worth, I suppose, would be the key factors.
 
 
Ganesh
13:57 / 15.05.03
Rage: I have very little idea of the nuts & bolts reality of psychic/mental separatism and transcending humanity other than groovy, vaguely Morrisonesque buzz-words. Like I said in my PM, you really are that opaque.
 
 
Leap
14:02 / 15.05.03
Kit Kat –

I think people do understand this, but that other factors can create dissatisfaction

I do not doubt that KK, and I suppose my comment was a little facetious, but the point remains that many folks in the west think they are deprived because they have a TV and no vid as opposed to a wide-screen and dvd……….

the problem is not so much lack of wealth (once you earn more than say £15000 p.a. or perhaps a bit less/more depending on the cost of living) but the gap between what you earn and person x earns,

I understand that, but we need to address the problem by giving it its real context (that of wealth in a global trade infrastructure – which makes US the wealthy!). There is too little awareness of the cost of our wealth, which is probably contributing GREATLY to the whole focusing on “I earn 20K you earn 25K, so I am poor” crap that we encourage today.
 
 
Rage
16:04 / 15.05.03
What's the point of a PM function if people are going to mention it publicly? Real cool, right. You're worse than the invisible government that doesn't even exist! Now I'm starting to remember why I kept leaving this place. I put way too much effort into this thread: should have known it would turn out this way. Silly me for even trying.

Haus has got to be one of the most manipulative individuals I've ever crossed cyberpaths with. Does he want a cookie or something? It's like he's looking for a perpetual cookie. Ganesh is like some Mr. Scholar Hiller Holler Gimme Explanation Dollar, and here everyone is having a bashing session with Little Leap until they decide to prove that they really are open minded to all humans by sucking on his tentacles. Want another cookie?

Sometimes I really can't deal with this bullshit. You guys think you're so much better than everyone else because you can tear apart every little issue of every little everything: well you know what you're doing? Shitting on everything.

Separatism is fun, as is actually going out and doing stuff, as opposed to deconstructing the textual ideas of others like so flickity flock board game used to keep tally charts of who's more wide perspective broadening good for you and your little friends, politicalio. What is the point of this constant hishasing? Why is this liberal humanist cake so utterly boring and hypocritical?

I choose to play. I refuse to unify myself with humanity as a whole, because it's more fun to play with perspectives where I'm ~~~~~~......!!!!! and I get to find other people who are ~~~~~~......!!!!! cause it's like this whole psychic game and it's just cool man, so I don't give a fuck about proving anything to anyone. I'm a kid, and I'm having fun with it. Let me enjoy my kultur and you can enjoy yours, and if you think you're so "been there done that" move to Seattle, yo.

Why try to be superintelligentsia here, what's the point? You'll just get mitafied. This is pure structuralized parody reflecting the actual intents of the conversation. It always turns out that way here. So why even bother to come off as anything but an immature kid who's chanting "time traveling faery heroin!" backwards.

You want to know what you've become? Look at your carpet. You've stepped all over yourselves as a collective, and the only thing that's left is your fluff. I, Ragel Hinewater, herby separate myself from the barbelith underground and its pro-human rhetoric.
 
 
Ganesh
16:18 / 15.05.03
I was striking a subversive blow against those anti-separatists who insist we all conform to the separatism of Private Messages.

See you when you come back, Rage. Again.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:36 / 15.05.03
Bye, Rage. See you soon. Enjoy seeing a real live tiger.

(Mod hat, sort of: How people choose to treat private messages is their own affair. I would not normally quote somebody else's private message to me unless it was abusive, or I had permission, but I wouldn't not mention that a PM had been sent. That seems strange. Others treat private messages as the same as posts, but assumed to be of interest to only one person. Certainly if you definitely don't want your PM broadcast, it would be best to mention so, and even then there's no actual *obligation* on the other person to respect that - no mechanism exists to condemn it - so in general best to assume that at some point what you are saying *may* enter the public domain)

You mean children might have to horror or horrors WALK to school instead of getting lifts (in what is increasingly a 4x4 school run)?! Or perhaps we might even have to not have “out of season fruit and veg” or cheap coffee / cocoa?!!

I agree completely - the school run in particular, and lack of car pooling in general, is one of those places where greater community action (in this case, the PTA) woudl be darned useful, and not really hurt anyone. And, as you say, many of us walked to school back in the day without a cavalcade of noncery or death ensuing. Likewise seasonal fruits and cheap coffee - at least, if you want to eat apples in Spring, you could accept that they will cost more, to take into account the added cost of portage.

Expensive coffee, on the other hand, would ruin me, but we all have to make sacrifices, eh?
 
 
Ganesh
16:43 / 15.05.03
(Re: Private Messages, this - Like I said in my PM, you really are that opaque - is the sum total of my separatism from the unwritten code of PM confidentiality. I do feel, however, in some vague-but-sexy way, that I am nonetheless STICKING IT TO THE MAN.)
 
  

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