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What's wrong with separatism?

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14:15 / 13.05.03

Rothkoid –

Yes, and still the point would be what? I'm pretty good mates with the most staunch vegan I know, and still she's been out for me with big, hearty dinners wherein she didn't have meat and I did. She has ethical problems with my carnivorous lifestyle, but we still get on, and are, as I say, good friends. How is the belief system here a problem, exactly, given that in close quarters, people tend to react on a person-to-berson basis?

The day a fur wearer / vegan has a long and happy marriage with a anti-fur campaigner / ardent carnivore you will have proved me wrong.

Quantum –

People are naturally separatist though- for example the UK's entrance into the EU is vehemently opposed.

And a good thing to! But is that a) separatism, b) conservatism, or c) opposed to centralisation ?

Personally I wish it would go one way or another, global government or local government. But global government will never work (if you think making a Kosher dinner is hard try mediating between China and America, or Palestine and Israel, or etc etc.) and local government (at least in the form of Leapworld) has been ripped to shreds in these very pages.

So you suggest?

Jack –

You would expect that, yes. But in practice, that's not what actually happens here, in the vast majority of cases.

Then let the child porn commence! (not!!)

So perhaps homogeneity of thought is not as valid, natural, and self-evidently right a postion as you think it is.

Strong similarity is NOT homogeneity of thought. Avoidance of SERIOUS disagreement is NOT homogeneity of thought. Why do people on here take things to extremes so often?

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:24 / 13.05.03

The day a fur wearer / vegan has a long and happy marriage with a anti-fur campaigner / ardent carnivore you will have proved me wrong.

How about a Jew and a Gentile? I'm sure we could scare up one of tho- oh! Hello, H.I.R. How are you doing over there?

The Return Of Rothkoid

14:29 / 13.05.03

The day a fur wearer / vegan has a long and happy marriage with a anti-fur campaigner / ardent carnivore you will have proved me wrong.

How about Catholics and Protestants? Different religion marriages work all the time. My parents being one of them.

Christ.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:36 / 13.05.03

Well, yeah, Rothkoid, but they eat the same stuff, so there is no problem. It's all about the din-dins, man. It's all about the din-dins.

If one of them were lactose intolerant, that would be impressive.

14:38 / 13.05.03

I'm sure several vegans and carnivores have had long marriages at some point. As to how happy they were, I know not.

How 'happy' are most marriages?

14:40 / 13.05.03

Also, housing is vastly cheaper in Scotland married with plenty available landspace. I await your asylum seekers link.

14:41 / 13.05.03

I can see discussion is beyond you Haus, as you approach anything with an attitude of superiority that leaves you with little desire to understand but instead only criticise (usually by twisting what is said into some extreme that only superficially resembles what what previously posted). I forget which greek philosopher chose this method but you are welcome to his company in your sad world.

14:52 / 13.05.03

Democritus?

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:55 / 13.05.03

Dude, I am *quoting* you. Quoting. You said that Jews and Gentiles should not cohabit in communities. When asked why, you said that the food issue was too problematic. There is no twisting here.

The technique you describe is the reductio ad absurdum. The thing is, there is no reductio here. There is at best a brief and half-hearted game of hide and seek. The absurdum is right there. It's playing pool with your brother. It's ruffling the hair of your children. It's smoking fags out of the window and exchanging recipes with your lovely wife. The absurdum had better not be Jewish, because it's moved in with you.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:00 / 13.05.03

Democritus was an atomic philosopher, neatly enough, but I think Leap may be thinking of the aporia that the early Platonic dialogues, so perhaps Socrates. But I may be overcrediting there. Of course, the character of Socrates in the Clouds claims to be able to make the worse defeat the better argument. A common plaint of Barbeloids whose Big Sexy Idea is not respected is that others are using magic of this kind.

15:02 / 13.05.03

You keep believing your "fire and ice can be friends" doctrine Haus if it makes you happy, just do not expect it to give you are particularly sound idea about people with major differences of opinion actually getting on well enough to form a community (assuming you know what a community actually is).

15:08 / 13.05.03

Dude.

It's not just Haus who believes this, you know. To try to minimize his position thus is disingenuous at best.

In fact I'd say you're in disagreement with a majority of folk on this board, and perahps even a majority of folk in Europe and the Anglosphere, who have organized their societies along the principles of a multi-ethnicity, open borders, free trade, and intercultural engagement.

Now, disagreement is fine: disagreement is the engine that powers intellectual advancement.

But if you insist on beliveing that one position is Right and te other is Wrong, then the question arises as to exactly who is out of step, and who's marching on the beat.

15:13 / 13.05.03

On the other hand, Haus, inflammatory extrapolations like the one above do little to keep the debate on track, either.

Play nice.

15:15 / 13.05.03

a majority of folk in Europe and the Anglosphere, who have organized their societies along the principles of a multi-ethnicity, open borders, free trade, and intercultural engagement.

Foolishly, IMO. Not because these foreigners are in any way bad, but because diluting our indentity at TOO RAPID A PACE has left us with i) a society largely disarmed in the face of globalism, and ii) a society searching for identity and increasingly finding only "products" to buy.

But if you insist on beliveing that one position is Right and te other is Wrong, then the question arises as to exactly who is out of step, and who's marching on the beat.

But then if you had read what I said earlier about the pace of change you would know that I do not hold such an absolutist stance, nor such a welded-in-position one as regards what a culture should be made up of. But then hey, I am getting used to people ignoring what I put and criticising me for what they THINK I put.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:17 / 13.05.03

Fair enough, Jack. Has been deleted. I shouldn't let his astonishing rudeness faze me - he doesn't know any better, after all.

However, given the turn the discussion ahs taken, another comment from the BNP manifesto seems appropriate:

We want generations that spring from us to be the same as us, look like us, and be moved by the same things as us.

No star here laces

15:22 / 13.05.03

As a non-participant in this argument I could point out that different groups of people clearly do have trouble getting along. And that a clear and obvious consequence of this is that neither lumping them all together and expecting them to just get along nor artificially separating them is a sensible solution to an enduring problem.

Leap is clearly justified in seeking a solution to these problems as people are doing horrible things to each other, but as has been pointed out very strongly in this thread, it is generally not a good idea to encourage people's xenophobia by legislating to prevent ethnic mixing, hence the means he chooses to get to his end are ill-advised. This is not the same as saying he is an idiot who ought to go away and wash his brain out with soap to get rid of all those silly little ideas.

However as Yugoslavia so graphically demonstrated, neither is it sufficient to ignore ethnic/cultural differences and hope they go away, hence Leap's irritation at his critics' failure to propose an alternative.

How would the anti-separatists suggest that humanity deal with discrete groups with long-standing differences who occupy the same territory? e.g. Ulster protestants and catholics, Serbs and Croats, Palestinians and Israelis.

(glossing over the ill-advised discussion about kosher food et al)

15:36 / 13.05.03

MCB -

Leap is clearly justified in seeking a solution to these problems as people are doing horrible things to each other, but as has been pointed out very strongly in this thread, it is generally not a good idea to encourage people's xenophobia by legislating to prevent ethnic mixing, hence the means he chooses to get to his end are ill-advised.

My own preference would be a blend of

i. for folks to actually be shown the facts and then let them understand that some degree of self-imposed division is required, but everytime I mention the word education on here I have been jumped upon by loonies who seem to assume I mean brainwashing.

ii. a recognition that a great part of the problem is the ease of transport in the modern era (something that has a whole load of other problems associated with it that I do not think I could begin to do justice on on here).

15:42 / 13.05.03

leap;

i think there is a point to be made here, and if you have been a longtime lurker, you will know why i feel a certain connection to your 'battle'.

my suit and the 'haus of ill repute' suit have been shouty before, and i ended up giving up on a battle i felt i was in no way going to win, right or wrong, relevant or irrelevant.

yes, he is irritating.

not because he is being exceptionally unfair, but instead because he is not into giving you any benfit of the doubt, and will not let you off with stupid and ill advised positions or comments.

you are being made to look silly, but not by a propaganda campaign or a slanderous attack; by an extremely efficient mirror.

no one said you were a nazi in any terms that were convincing.

it was a joke, and you reacted badly.
(quite a witty one i thought)

reacting badly is EXACTLY what someone taking the piss will love. it makes it much more fun to watch.

the comparisons with the BNP were drawn not to suggest that you were a member, or participated in any racially motivated violence, but in response to your claims taht they were 'fruit loops', and not worthy of any note.

they are, as has been demonstrated, notthat different from you.

no, that does not make you a nazi.

yes, that does mean you are wrong about their extremist attitudes, unless you see yourself as similaly 'fruit loopy' and 'extreme'.

you are running circles around yourself, albeit with a little help, and it WILL NOT END WELL with your current tactics.
you will end up either feeling silly that this is how you turned up on this site, and wondering who still thinks you are an idiot, or you will become tired of us and leave.

i speak, as i said, partly from experience. (it is exceptionally annoying when haus tells me i have got better, for example, but i recognise that as i said, it is myself that i find annoying as much as him)

and for gods sake, a community where we can all amicably disagree?

HELLO!
over here, in grey, white and a sort of orangey brown?

umm...

BAR-BE-LITH?

15:54 / 13.05.03

also, buddy,

but everytime I mention the word education on here I have been jumped upon by loonies who seem to assume I mean brainwashing.

i think what people were intrigued by, myself included, was that you seem to think, and inform if i go wrong on this, with the right education, people will become sensible.

your idea of sensible, mind.

all the facts can however be interpreted differently by different people.

its a common fault, one that seems to stem from arrogance, to think that one is right because one is aware of the facts, and that if only we all saw those facts we would fall into line with one's opinions.

16:22 / 13.05.03

Toksik -

yes, he is irritating.

You have a masterful ability with understatment

not because he is being exceptionally unfair, but instead because he is not into giving you any benfit of the doubt, and will not let you off with stupid and ill advised positions or comments.

I am beginning to think it is not as simple as that - he insists on not simply counter-arguing in a generally polite manner and regular guy kinda way, but instead assumes the worst, takes things to extremes that were not in what we his responding to, twists what is said, and then proceeds to make a show of his (alleged) brilliance. He also seems to wilfully misunderstand anything that is not spelled out in a way that a lawyer would be proud of. In short his behaviour is bordering on a blend of Aspergers (sp?) and Drama-queen.

I do not want his posturing lectures on what he finds to be an appropriate way of posting; it is (IMHO) content that is important here, not an anal-retentive reliance upon, and critique of, form

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:26 / 13.05.03

OK. Your content is badly-thought out, badly defended, relies on the assumption that if only everyone knew what you knew the correct course of action would be "self-evident" while failing utterly to convince *anyone*, and is tied to a masturbatory fantasy of an increasingly terrifying Ruritanian wonderland.

Your content has been questioned, and your responses have been almost entirely either circular - dependent on precepts stated earlier in your chain of argument that have not been adequately demonstrated - abusive, specious or simply non-existent. You are unwillign or unable to answer difficult questions about your increasingly eccentric statements, preferring instead a barrage of abuse and a frankly childish insistence that you are somehow the injured party. This is a failing of your delivery, but *also* demonstrates a startling weakness in the foundation of your content.

Any better?

16:29 / 13.05.03

You have a masterful ability with understatment

oh, no. not at all.

i meant that at exactly the level i said it.
he is not that bad, once you get to know him.

i say this as much to make clear my position as to correct you, leap.

16:32 / 13.05.03

and also, try to answer the main thrust of my post, rather than my words to the wise about the futility of attempting to out-wordmonger the wordsmith.

18:27 / 13.05.03

Leap:

for folks to actually be shown the facts

One of the reasons we "loonies" fail to take this sort of thing seriously is your absolute inability to demonstrate any factual evidence-base (as opposed to unfounded personal belief) to support your statements - and furthermore, despite my best attempts in the 'EDUCATION' thread to explain subjective/objective, you still seem confused as to what exactly differentiates a fact from an opinion.

Given this particular deficit, I'd be cautious about tossing around terms like "loonies" or "fruitloops". If you can't actually substantiate your own idiosyncratic philosophy with reference to any sort of documented objective reality, you're essentially no more authoritative than the mumbling Pub Bloke in the tinfoil beanie, the old lady cowering from the mechanised imposter Sun-substitute or the herpetophobic, turquoise-clad ex-sports presenter warning of the Ides of May...

18:44 / 13.05.03

Jack -- I'm not sure the Amish are separatist as much as isolationist, and I think there's a difference there.

Jim Crow was separatist, right? Apartheid was too, at least on paper -- the homelands and that. That's along racial lines. The problem with both those separatist systems was that they left one segment of the population with better access to the goods (good water, good schools, good hospitals). Both segments are part of society, though - they're not in a vacuum, they're just... separated.

I suppose the Amish are also different in that they chose (and choose) to withdraw from society, rather than being barred from the goods. Amish don't ride the bus, so they don't care if they have to get in the back seat.

03:19 / 14.05.03

Leap, in case you're not understanding:

This:

Not because these foreigners are in any way bad, but because diluting our indentity at TOO RAPID A PACE has left us with i) a society largely disarmed in the face of globalism, and ii) a society searching for identity and increasingly finding only "products" to buy.
, for example, will lead to

[Incidentally, my own reaction was 'really?']

this:

One of the reasons we "loonies" fail to take this sort of thing seriously is your absolute inability to demonstrate any factual evidence-base (as opposed to unfounded personal belief) to support your statements - and furthermore, despite my best attempts in the 'EDUCATION' thread to explain subjective/objective, you still seem confused as to what exactly differentiates a fact from an opinion.

If you can be bothered, do some research. If you find it, present it. It's worthiness may be questioned, but at least you'll have armed yourself with some pertinent information.

I confess, I'm not terribly one for arming myself with information, but my 'commonsense' appears rather more capable than your own, frankly bizarre (but fun in a Heinleinesque sci-fi kind-of way,) extrapolations.

I am not trolling you, nor is anyone else. Yet, I still await my link.

The Return Of Rothkoid

04:20 / 14.05.03

a society largely disarmed in the face of globalism, and ii) a society searching for identity and increasingly finding only "products" to buy.

Because opened borders are really ensuring government complicity with big business, thus allowing the rise of globalism?

Um... how's that work, exactly? Surely the rise of the corporation (cf: Captive State and loads of other stuff that some here are far better-equipped to unpack than I) is a separate thing to immigration? I can't see much of a link, mself...

As for fire and ice: you get given examples of people doing exactly that and dismiss them out of hand. Not particularly encouraging.

08:40 / 14.05.03

And also: 'our identity' is not a simple concept either; another one of those tricky, mutable things which do not pre-exist but which are a product of human social and cultural discourses. Who are 'we', exactly? Not every group will conceive of their group identity in the same manner, let alone use the same things to construct it.

08:49 / 14.05.03

Rothkoid –

a society largely disarmed in the face of globalism, and ii) a society searching for identity and increasingly finding only "products" to buy.

Because opened borders are really ensuring government complicity with big business, thus allowing the rise of globalism?

Um... how's that work, exactly? Surely the rise of the corporation (cf: Captive State and loads of other stuff that some here are far better-equipped to unpack than I) is a separate thing to immigration? I can't see much of a link, mself...

Open borders allow international big-business to sweep in and over take small local business (through the ability to buy/ship en masse (and thus cheaper) and to support weaker branches with the stronger ones elsewhere (at least until the local shops have gone under).

THE DATA ON POPULATION LEVELS, AS REQUESTED.

England’s land area in million square km: 130 and population in millions: 49 …that’s one person per 3 kmsq.
France’s land area in million square km: 545 and population in millions: 59 ….that’s one person per 9 kmsq.
Germany’s land area in million square km: 349 and population in millions: 82 ….that’s one person per 4 kmsq.
Italy’s land area in million square km: 294 and population in millions: 58 …that’s one person per 5 kmsq.
Spain’s land area in million square km: 500 kmsq and population in millions: 40 …that’s one person per 13 kmsq.

The only ones we seriously compare with are Germany and Italy and our population density of 1 person per 2.6 Kmsq is still far less than Germany’s 1 person per 4.3 Kmsq. or indeed Italy’s 1 person per 5 kmsq.

The annual asylum claims per 1000 population is, according to the BBC:

Germany: 1.94
Britain: 0.97
Spain: 0.21

Data for France and Italy was not given.

European Union Online

http://geography.about.com/library/cia/blcindex.htmThe CIA Worldbook

Note: All numbers rounded to nearest.

The Return Of Rothkoid

10:13 / 14.05.03

Open borders allow international big-business to sweep in and over take small local business (through the ability to buy/ship en masse (and thus cheaper) and to support weaker branches with the stronger ones elsewhere (at least until the local shops have gone under).

But that's international/national trading or business law, not immigration. You're referring to the process of business entities being allowed to trade within one's nation, not about having someone who ain't you move in next door. Are business entities locked in detention camps? Most likely not. And what about big-business that's based in one's own country: ie: Starbucks has cruelled it for just as many American coffee-houses of small stature as it has internationally.

11:03 / 14.05.03

The weaker trade barriers (Common Market) become weaker national barriers (EU).

The Return Of Rothkoid

11:12 / 14.05.03

Proof? I didn't think Starbucks was an easy in because of the EU. Or because of the swarms of Americans flooding the UK to live next door to you.

11:17 / 14.05.03

Easy international movement incourages trade to focus in the most efficient areas, creating zones that have a high draw for "economic migrants" and a ease of access to it.

15:01 / 14.05.03

Can we work with those numbers a bit?

I notice you've given England's population and landmass, and Britain's asylum figures.

Has German culture become horribly 'eroded'? Into a mishmash?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:14 / 14.05.03

I'm confused.

Are Brits still allowed to emigrate?

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