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What's wrong with separatism?

  
  

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Rage
06:11 / 11.05.03
Seems like nobody likes those separatists these days.

Not to bring Webster into this or anything, but "one who advocates disjunction of a group from a larger group or political unit" and "a seceder from an established church; a dissenter; a nonconformist; a schismatic; a sectar" sound quite appealing.

As does "having separated or advocating separation from another entity or policy or attitude; a breakaway faction."

So why is there all this nasty separatism relating to the separatists?
 
 
Shrug
10:40 / 11.05.03
Umm I'll probably sound really stupid saying this but... you know most of my posts are so... I think that people are seperate enough without coagulating into large opposing groups in the vain hope of belonging.
 
 
Ganesh
11:22 / 11.05.03
I guess separatism carries negative overtones because one often defines one's group by Othering those who aren't in the group - and this frequently predisposes to stigmatisation (norms, mundanes, "sheeple", etc.). Stigmatisation tends to dehumanisation, and dehumanising someone permits one to treat them in 'cruel and unusual' ways.

That's why we wishy-washy liberals frown on those bastard separatists. Hanging's too good for 'em, I say.
 
 
Bill Posters
11:31 / 11.05.03
Wasn't there some discussion of feminist separatism here, a while back? (Yeah, what 'Nesh said, all this separatism can be rather divisive and runs against the 'we're all huggly hippies and can all live and love together in peace and harmony' meme which seems to be fairly basic to alternative politix. I guess separatism would require a fairly firm sense of self-identity also, not a fluid, playful 'i can be whatever i want' type id.)
 
 
Leap
08:08 / 12.05.03
Separatism has increasingly become a label thrown at anyone who does not go along with the multicultural, Hypermobility-transport-centred, post-modern, life’s-a-market-and-everything’s-a-product , world-of-strangers, dislocated homogenisation of Big Business centred contemporary Globalised ‘culture’ but who would instead like to retain some sense of specific identity and slow change to a trickle (rather than have the tap on full). It is used as something to point at someone and say “You are not playing with the team. You are bad!”; as an attack on community, in a quick-throughput society that serves the greed of multinational corporations.

We are given two stark choices by TPTB. Either you are for the open-borders, ‘free’-trade, constantly shifting de-communitised modern world or you are parochial and a “separatist”.

Eg: If you are anti the EU and the Euro you are a “separatist”.
 
 
Ganesh
08:13 / 12.05.03
That'd be one form of separatism, certainly.
 
 
Leap
10:10 / 12.05.03
Sorry. That turned into a bit of a rant :embarrassed:
 
 
Shrug
10:20 / 12.05.03
Surely there is a difference between sharing a common culture/ cultural heritage or having a coinciding idea with a group of people than being a seperatist though?
 
 
Shrug
10:36 / 12.05.03
Wait did that make any sense, what did I just post? Separatism engenders feelings of elitism in general, though doesn't it? Once again large opposing factions never lead anywhere particularily er... fluffy.
 
 
Leap
10:47 / 12.05.03
Matter Arising –

Surely there is a difference between sharing a common culture/ cultural heritage or having a coinciding idea with a group of people than being a separatist though?

“Separatist” is a buzzword, kind of like “terrorist”, that in its case is thrown at all those who disagree with the current boundary weakening lifestyle. It all comes down to boundaries. Having boundaries today is seen as “bad”; borders and boundaries are anti the homogenising, centralised, imperialism of global commercial politics. They get in the way of the neo-barons and their drive for global domination through mass production. Thus, if you have or value strong borders / boundaries, you are a “separatist”, just like if you fight back you are a “terrorist”.

Separatism engenders feelings of elitism in general, though doesn't it?

Not if it takes “better for us” rather than a “better than you” attitude. Sometimes, what is called separatism is simply about maintaining stronger boundaries than is “acceptable” to others (who in turn hold themselves to be better than the separatists…)………..

It’s a mixed up world
 
 
Ganesh
10:57 / 12.05.03
Sure - but I think a lot of the 'bad press' around boundaries hinges less on the concept itself than from the ways in which, historically, humans have chosen to treat those on the other side of any given boundary. The 'slippery slope' model of stigma is one of the reasons we fluffy types get anxious around the idea of separatism.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:01 / 12.05.03
That, and the fact that some separatists, like the BNP, present more of a vertical drop than a slippery slope.
 
 
Leap
11:29 / 12.05.03
Slipery slopes are part of the whole "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance" deal - they are only really dangerous when we do not pay attention to them and give them their due respect in order that we slip no further down them. Of course today vigilance is the province of the state, who we require to police us rather than taking responsibility for such ourselves, which makes us all the more vulnerable to fruit loops like the BNP (or indeed New Labour with their pro-europe centrism and their authoritarian home secretary (truly the blind leading the blind!)).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:31 / 12.05.03
Yeah, those fruit loops....they're just whacky.
 
 
Ganesh
11:42 / 12.05.03
Yes, slippery slopes are only dangerous when you slip down them.
 
 
Leap
11:43 / 12.05.03
Hello Troll.

Can you manage a positive contribution today or will it best just more of your usual facetiousness?
 
 
Leap
11:50 / 12.05.03
Whoa Ganesh.

Netlag?
 
 
Ganesh
11:53 / 12.05.03
Slippery work PC.
 
 
Leap
12:00 / 12.05.03
You should have kept those gloves on
 
 
Ganesh
12:02 / 12.05.03
What makes you think I'm using my fingers...?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:02 / 12.05.03
i) Generally not wise to call one or two of the administrators of a board trolls; it's unlikely to help your credibility.

ii) I would say that once again springboarding off from an entirely different topic into exactly the same rant about how the existence of government has taken away our autonomy to LIVE as FREE MEN is hardly "positive" in itself.

iii) Leap writes the BNP off as "fruit loops", and appears rather to miss the point of the "w-h-acky" comment, that the point about the BNP is that their rhetoric must be appearing credible to someone, or we would not be worrying about this. However, it must be said that Leap and the BNP already have a fondness for the traditional English way of life, opposition to European Union and the championing of organic farming techniques. This is before we even get onto their sympathies on dole scroungers. I imagine that Leaptopia, given its need for low populations and cohesive social units, would have little time or space for asylum seekers, or indeed foreigners in general, although of course all prejudices would be obliterated by EDUCATION. Meanwhile:

Power should be devolved to the lowest level possible so that local communities can make decisions which affect them.

The liberal fixation with the ‘rights’ of criminals must be replaced by concern for the rights of victims, and the right of innocent people not to become victims.

We will end the practice of politically correct indoctrination in all its guises.

Priority will be switched from quantity to quality, as we move from competing in a global economy to maximum self-sufficiency for Britain. We will ensure a major shift to healthier and more sustainable organic farming.

More emphasis must be placed on healthy living with greater understanding of sickness prevention through physical exercise, a healthier environment and improved diets.

There are significant differences on Transport (they want better public transport, Leaptopians would not travel at all) and Healthcare (they want a national health service), and their commitment to the devolution of power to local administration is not sufficiently intense, but it all sounds drearily familiar. Point being, there is sometimes less of a credibility gap between the fruitloops and the counsels of purest wisdom than might be expected. People aren't voting for the BNP just because they are being difficult or downright w-h-acky, after all. They are expressing, it seems, a species of the same frustration with the modern world as the Leapster, in a manner not quite so alien as might first have been imagined.
 
 
Jub
12:06 / 12.05.03
Now, I'd like to take issue with that, as clearly, you didn't understand my original point as put at the time. You're wrong (meaning that you are either fool-hardy or you are a fool), Furthermore, I'm right - as I pointed out in the first place. Could it be any more straight forward?

Another thing that comes to mind... I'm off for a wank

....Sorry leap
 
 
Leap
12:30 / 12.05.03
Haus –

Generally not wise to call one or two of the administrators of a board trolls; it's unlikely to help your credibility.

Manage something a little more positive than Yeah, those fruit loops....they're just whacky as a return post and I might consider it.

I would say that once again springboarding off from an entirely different topic into exactly the same rant about how the existence of government has taken away our autonomy to LIVE as FREE MEN is hardly "positive" in itself.

The subject of slippery slopes was raised and I addressed it.

A Barbeloid who shall remain unnamed commented to me, of Leap "He is right to say that he takes elements of both the left and right wings. From the right wing he takes Nationalism, from the right wing he takes Socialism. He puts them together to make..."

That actually counts as both hear-say and slander, I hope you realise.

I believe this to be somewhat unfair, albeit rather funny. However, it must be said that Leap and the BNP already have a fondness for the traditional English way of life, opposition to European Union and the championing of organic farming techniques.

And of course NOW who is beginning thread-rot with yet more facetiousness?

Leaptopians would not travel at all

Because of course you cannot recognise that a reduction in transport would be anything but an utter loss of transport. Such logic astounds. Do you pass all data through a simple binary gate, or can you understand analogue?

As a matter of purely personal interest, Leap, how do you stand on homosexuals

With both feet.

Sorry, but your REALLY asked for that after the “Leap’s a Nazi” quote.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:44 / 12.05.03
I never said you were a Nazi, just not very bright and with far more in common politically with the extreme right than you appear to have noticed. Also failing utterly to take into account any of the issues raised in my post, instead choosing to wank on about how transport will be managed in Leaptopia. Quelle surprise. Dude, nobody cares. Seriously. Not even dogs care anymore. You are one-note Barbelith nutter. We had it with the Greenland Posse and the International Solomonic Conspiracy, we had it with Wai and the perversion-inducing properties of processed food, and now we have you. It's cool.

Of course, the vast majority of the population support me. Because the truth is self-evident.

(Incidentally, the joke above is neither hearsay nor slander, legally. However, if it upsets you that much, I will delete it. How's that for reasonable?)
 
 
Char Aina
12:55 / 12.05.03
and as was said in the chris rock inspired thread, being really funny immunises the 'speaker' somewhat.

and that was really funny...
 
 
Leap
13:16 / 12.05.03
Ganesh –

What makes you think I'm using my fingers...?

?!!!!

Haus –

I never said you were a Nazi,

and I never said that YOU said I was a Nazi………..but your “quote’s source” implied that I am a National Socialist and I take it you do realise what that means in terms of “Nazi”.

far more in common politically with the extreme right than you appear to have noticed.

I am well aware of what I have in common (except for the “organic” bit – I never knew the BNP were pro-organic (which, of course, by your logic must also damn all other who believe in such……..)

Also failing utterly to take into account any of the issues raised in my post, instead choosing to wank on about how transport will be managed in Leaptopia.

What ARE you one about? What issues ? Or are you referring to the attempt to tell me what I believe (in which case I was simply avoiding yet more thread rot resulting from your facile attempts to twist what I have said to fulfil your own “inflated bladder” swinging agenda)?

Incidentally, this is not hearsay, because it was a joke rather than a statement, and not slander for the same reason. You are not being slandered by the original speaker because they were delivering simple abuse, which is not covered by slander law; since nobody would ever believe that you were a member of that group, especially as it no longer exists, your reputation would not be damaged by the statement.

A Barbeloid who shall remain unnamed commented to me, of Leap "He is right to say that he takes elements of both the left and right wings. From the right wing he takes Nationalism, from the left wing he takes Socialism. He puts them together to make..."

i. This is not presented as a joke, it is presented as a character judgement

ii. If you think National Socialism is in anyway gone from this world, you are guilty of a great (if well meant) delusion.

iii. from the right wing I take economic freedom and from the left wind I take social freedom, as a libertarian, rather than taking the economic control of the left wing and the social control of the right wing, becoming an authoritarian.

You are not being slandered by me i) because I am not *saying* anything,

Again, I did not say YOU were doing the slandering.

Also, of course, since I have no access to any connection between the name "Leap" and the person operating the suit, I cannot by definition be defaming *you*.

What on earth are you on about here. You were presenting an inaccurate AND inflammatory “quote” about me, in a public place, which could prejudicially colour the perceptions of others towards me (with you holding a position of “authority” as a mod – at least, someone may believe you before they learned of your habitual facetiousness and misrepresentative twisting of other peoples words). That quote would then reference to me in this public place. That is slander.

You should possibly learn a little more about the law before you start to whine about it in the manner of an affronted schoolchild. However, if it will save you wetting your pants and wailing, I will delete it. There there, baby.)

Ah, more facetiousness.

Leap writes the BNP off as "fruit loops", and appears rather to miss the point of the "w-h-acky" comment, that the point about the BNP is that their rhetoric must be appearing credible to someone, or we would not be worrying about this.

I was, as I previously stated, addressing a side issue of “slippery slopes” and did not wish to stray into excessive detail.
 
 
Jub
13:26 / 12.05.03
You were presenting an inaccurate AND inflammatory “quote” about me, in a public place, which could prejudicially colour the perceptions of others towards me

it's more likely to be your own posts which might negatively affect people's opinion towards you. I don't really think Haus quoting someone else will make someone think badly of you. Be fair.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:27 / 12.05.03
Dude, I very strongly suggest that you edit or delete your previous post. since this is going to get us nowhere. I shall also edit out this explanation once you have. Something was said about "Leap". At this point there is no connection between the pseudonym "Leap" and any other person with a legal existence in Britain. Simply put, nobody knows how you are. "Leap"
 
 
Leap
13:38 / 12.05.03
Haus -

At this point there is no connection between the pseudonym "Leap" and any other person with a legal existence in Britain. Simply put, nobody knows who you are. "Leap"

So you are saying that, because we use nick names rather than our regular ones, we are somehow not “legal entities” in Barbelith despite it being a public forum?

Are you also saying that someone cannot be accused of slander here because it cannot be easily linked back to our regular lives? So I could discuss, in theory (!), the locations and details of child porn and such could not be used in evidence against me (should I be so interested – which I hope I have no need to say that I am not!!)?

If this is the case, let all the posts remain so that others may learn of this (or at least, if it proves to be otherwise, that this is what you are putting forward as the legal situation here).

How would you handle the idea that i. Barbelith members occasionally have been known to arrange meets (and so “leap” would indeed be referencable back to the “real world”) and ii. that at least one member here DOES know who I am in the real world and could in theory be mislead by your post (not that I think he would be remotely daft enough to be!!)?
 
 
Leap
13:46 / 12.05.03
My sincere apologies for the thread rot here - I am sick to the back teeth of constantly having to correct Haus’ misrepresentations and his repeated facetious attacks on whatever I post. If he would actually learn to just shut the **** up as far as his prancing goes, and instead concentrate on the matter at hand, we could avoid this endless and tiresome rigmarole.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
14:01 / 12.05.03
Um, topic?

I was forgetting. Conversation. Flame away, kids.
 
 
Quantum
14:03 / 12.05.03
You never told me you were a Nazi!
As an example of seperatism this thread shows the natural tendency of people to perceive those seperated as an enemy, and then fight them.
Leap, Haus- the Arena?

The problem is 'seperatist' is often a synonym for 'Nationalist', which for me conjures all sorts of bad associations- like England fans abroad.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:08 / 12.05.03
(Sorry, the complete post was)

Leap, dude, I very strongly suggest that you edit or delete your previous post, since this is going to get us nowhere except cause bad feeling. I shall also edit out this explanation once you have.

Something was said about "Leap". At this point there is no connection between the pseudonym "Leap" and any other person with a legal existence in Britain. Simply put, nobody knows who you are. "Leap" has no legal existence, and therefore cannot be financially or personally damaged by this statement about him, which is besides defensible, in legal fact, as simple abuse. Put simply, the defendant would not know who the legal entity whose typing appears as "Leap" is. It would be therefore rather like slandering the Easter Bunny, especially as you have gone on record as unwilling to release your personal details and thus tie the character of Leap into its user(front end of one of the Leaptopia threads).

Now, if you are conversely attempting to argue that the fiction suit "Leap" will be materially affected by what people think of it *on Barbelith*, that's a slightly different matter, and might make for some interesting legal implications.

There is also the question of the political angle. Goldsmith and another vs Bhoyrul and others, 1997, stated that no political party might sue for defamation, as it would be contrary to the proceeding of democracy. There are interesting possible implications on whether Leap can be seen as a primarily personal or political entity, since there is a reasonable shout to the effect that the entity of Leap exists only to propound a political agenda. This would be an interesting byway to explore. However, one might also want to look at Charleston (and another) vs News Group Newspapers, 1995 which would suggest that the entirety of the rest of Barbelith would have to be taken into consideration, both in its general tone and specifically the speech and action fo the entity "Leap", its predisposition to violent comment and its frequent attempts to misrepresent through the same definition of libel its detractors. Problem here being that, if the entity known as "Leap" has no credibility, then the impact of those libels would be minimal anyway. So that would be a judgement call.

Of course, these are suppositions. If you are planning to bring legal proceedings on the strength of the idea that one person might associate the entity "Leap" with its user, although you believe he would not be in any way affected by the comment (suggesting again that it is abuse, and thus not legally slanderous), then that would be a species of malicious prosecution, and would therefore, even if you were successful, land you with costs, assuming you could find a solicitor to represent you after Tolstoy-Miloslavsky v Aldington, where it was set as precedent that solicitors unreasonably commencing proceedings may be liable for wasted costs. Legally, it's very interesting.

However, this also suggests that you are threatening to attempt legal procedings against people who disagree with you if they do so in a way you feel not to be addressing the matter in hand (in this case..well, I thought we were talking about the fruitloopiness of separatism). This is a new and novel idea on Barbelith...might I ask how sincere you are in it?
 
 
Leap
14:10 / 12.05.03
Jub –

it's more likely to be your own posts which might negatively affect people's opinion towards you. I don't really think Haus quoting someone else will make someone think badly of you. Be fair.

I AM being fair. By all means criticise me for what I DO say, but not what Haus (or anyone else for that matter) spins that into. I am no Nazi (you seem surprised that I would be offended at being called one!). I am also no BNPer. My politics are libertarian, not authoritarian (nor far right, nor socialist, nor centrist), which is of course highly unusual for the “left heavy” barbelith board (my god do I have to explain this again) and often gets this same shite from Haus claiming (through his usual binary logic gate) that I am something else (which invariably leads to thread-rot as I actually to point out the BS he is churning out – especially when he is being offensive enough to attempt to connect me with Nazis….most of his stuff is just meaningless nonsense but I take exception to some things (strange as it may seem, being called a Nazi is one of them)).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:13 / 12.05.03
Rothkoid's quite right, by the way. Obviously, even in the conversation some topics are valuable and good and should perhaps by avoided by threadrotting. However egarage has, as is her custom, not put in a topic abstract, so we don't even really have a topic to deviate from.
 
  

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