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What's wrong with separatism?

  
  

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Bill Posters
11:00 / 18.05.03
It appears to be a useful vent for you to get some of the venom that for whatever reason has built up in your system out, and as long as it is helping you in everyday life then all is well.

Haus, I cannot believe that you have accused me of spleen-venting. I'm not saying i've never done it, but i have certainly not made a career out of it in the way you have.

shown the appropriate level of care and attention, Rage will one day turn out okay.

I have just realised that is the most patronising thing I have ever said to or about another human being. Sorry Rage. I also have just realised that the thought of Barbeloids being responsible for nurturing someone to a state just about resembling normality is a ludicrous contradiction in terms and also rather frightening in a blind leading the blind sort of way. And i appologise to the visually-impared for offence caused by my metaphor.

What a remarkably odd thing to do - just to see what, exactly?

presumably to see whether social exclusion would result. I take the point that there may have been other reasons for what happened, though.

Is Barbelith trying?

You are exceedingly trying. 'Twas ever thus and i have no reason to believe things will change.
 
 
rakehell
02:11 / 19.05.03
Now Jack Fear needs to say something apropos and cutting.

Ganesh, quick, do that thing where you pretend you're Haus accidentaly posting as Ganesh.

"There is the theory of the Moebius: a twist in the fabric of space where time becomes a loop."
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
05:59 / 19.05.03
Are we here?

What does God say?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
06:40 / 19.05.03
 
 
6opow
07:41 / 19.05.03
Why have we forsaken him?

Maybe because he’s a bullshit confidence hack who has the nerve to whine about other people “ripping him off” when he himself has certainly and so obviously begged, borrowed, and baptized various works of others into his own little synthesis—proceeding to market this unholy creation to a target audience while passing this off to the dim as world changing hyper-magick.

Who among us was the first to drive the nails into his hands?

I’m Judas.

Shit into gold.

Why do we always end up with my voice like this?

Maybe you’re sickening for a little roister-doister. Who knows?

Piss. Ass.
 
 
Ganesh
07:44 / 19.05.03
Oooh, you scary iconoclast, you!
 
 
Leap
08:09 / 19.05.03
Harking back to the dim and distant past, when this topic was still about separatism, perhaps separatism is simply a response to a world that is so out of sync with the “separatist” group’s own values that separation is needed. There appears to be an assumption today that if you do not hold to the multiculturalist / one-world-ist / Coke-n-Disney mindset you are somehow “bad” ; a hypocritical stance that says both that you can be different (“lets respect other cultures”) but also says that difference is bad (“separatists are evil loons”). Or perhaps some of the separatists ‘see the Coke-n-Disney “culture” for what it is’[tm]; as a giant con that is trying to get barriers taken down (making out that diversity is valued when all that is valued is a potential product) in order to allow some kind Globalist-Capitalist-Imperialist takeover?
 
 
Ganesh
08:16 / 19.05.03
I'm not sure about that. For starters, there are so many separations and individual viewpoints within the "multiculturalist / one-world-ist / Coke-n-Disney mindset" that, although it's a familiar corporate agenda, I'm not sure those ingredients automatically blend into a single unified "mindset" in other arenas. It's quite possible to espouse multiculturalism while eschewing "Coke-n-Disney", for example - which would, I suppose, make one a separatist.
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:31 / 19.05.03
From dictionary.com

Separatist

1. One who secedes or advocates separation, especially from an established church; a sectarian or separationist.

2. One who advocates disjunction of a group from a larger group or political unit: Basque separatists.

3. One who advocates cultural, ethnic, or racial separation.

I think we are in danger of using the word "separatist" to include anyone who wants to make any change to the structure of society. Is eschewing "Coke-n-Disney" separatist? Perhaps, depending on what one means by "eschewing". I think that deciding not to buy from certain companies and to advocate a change in the practice of global trade and corporations can't really be said to be separatist. Nor is that kind of rejection at odds with multiculturalism, except in the most naive definition of the word.
 
 
Ganesh
08:36 / 19.05.03
I think it also stretches the concept of 'separation'. What constitutes separation from a larger group? Holding different ideas? Physical/geographical separation (monasteries, gated communities, etc.)? Active protest against that larger group?
 
 
Leap
08:49 / 19.05.03
Lurid –

From dictionary.com

Ah, the .net addicts friend

I think we are in danger of using the word "separatist" to include anyone who wants to make any change to the structure of society. Is eschewing "Coke-n-Disney" separatist? Perhaps, depending on what one means by "eschewing". I think that deciding not to buy from certain companies and to advocate a change in the practice of global trade and corporations can't really be said to be separatist. Nor is that kind of rejection at odds with multiculturalism, except in the most naive definition of the word.

I agree, but modern society puts itself forwards as both valuing different and distinct culture whilst being anti the preservation of that culture through a separatist agenda – an approach that I think is little more than a cover for global capitalist imperialism on the look out for new products…. In the modern world, separatism can be a counter move to the increased centralisation / homogenisation we find today. A response to the loss of power / identity to the Globalist agenda.

Ganesh –

I think it also stretches the concept of 'separation'. What constitutes separation from a larger group? Holding different ideas? Physical/geographical separation (monasteries, gated communities, etc.)? Active protest against that larger group?

Well, there is a middle ground between out-and-out separatism (Aryan Nation, Memmonites, Amish, Dongers, Branch Davidians (Koresh et al at Waco) (wow! That IS an odd bunch to label together) and protest culture (which tends to remain closely affiliated with the day to day culture it is protesting against – a la “anti-globalism”). Given time, a protest culture could easily become a separatist one, probably from an idea that the main culture will not really change through protest but instead needs either open revolt or a waiting for it to collapse under its own weight.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:27 / 19.05.03
Leap, you are still conflating "global capitalist imperialism" with multiculturalism. Given the homogenising effect of the former, I don't find that particularly convincing. It is possible to be a supporter of unrestricted free trade while being against multiculturalism - there are Tories like this - or vice versa. They are different issues, in my mind.
 
 
Leap
09:54 / 19.05.03
Lurid –

Leap, you are still conflating "global capitalist imperialism" with multiculturalism. Given the homogenising effect of the former, I don't find that particularly convincing. It is possible to be a supporter of unrestricted free trade while being against multiculturalism - there are Tories like this - or vice versa. They are different issues, in my mind.

Ah, I see your point. The point I was trying to make was the way our predominant culture in the west is the above said GCI under a cover of multiculturalism (GCI is using multiculturalism as a cover for its activities; turning cultures into products to sell, under the cover of claims of “respecting” said culture by drawing upon it). In response to the centralisation behind this, separatism can be seen as a right response to something wrong rather than as “a bunch of extremist nutters living in a walled compound”!

My own preference is for Multicultural separatism; where boundaries are largely maintained between cultures but trade and travel still exists between them - As opposed to Monoculture separatism (Supremacism) or ‘Multicultural’ homogenisation (GCI), which are both essentially the same thing, the difference being that Supremacism is merely an empire-in-waiting. GCI as “Capitalism Supremacism”.
 
 
Quantum
09:55 / 19.05.03
3. One who advocates cultural, ethnic, or racial separation.
A bad thing IMO

1. One who secedes or advocates separation, especially from an established church; a sectarian or separationist.

2. One who advocates disjunction of a group from a larger group or political unit: Basque separatists.
the freedom fighter/terrorist issue, not necessarily bad. Rage's seperatism seems ideological like this, rather than keeping people with their own kind.
Responding to the initial post, seperatists get such a hard time because they often have associated terrorists, who blow people up and murder them to achieve their seperation. Now I'm not averse to fucking shit up, but killing innocent people is, um, wrong. It's bad and wrong, so much so there should be a new word for it- badong. Killing is Badong (hoping somebody else has seen 'kung pow')
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:57 / 19.05.03
I think Leap may be thinking of the co-option of more tolerant or inclusive attitudes towards different cultures by advertising - for example, the slew of offensive adverts in which British Airways et al make little children smile in Beijing, Mumbai, Dar-es-Salaam and Lima... however, it's important (I think) to recognise that this sort of attitude towards 'multiculturalism' (that makes it sound like an ideology, and I don't think it is) is tied in with corporations and as such has very little to do with any real communication between anyone except the advertiser and the audience. Moreover I doubt it has any relationship to how people really think about other cultures.

I can't see any reason why acceptance and toleration of cultural/ethnic/religious/political difference should be automatically assumed to be a process stemming from 'modern society' (which is what exactly? We could use a definition here - it does sound rather as if you are assuming that 'modern society' shares and promotes the agendas of global corporatism, and I don't think such a thing as a society can be said to have such a monolithic set of values - if a society can be viewed as an entity which has values at all, which I think is doubtful).

Also surely the extent of engagement which any other culture is and must be the choice of the individual - i.e. if someone wants to move away from their cultural heritage, it would be wrong to prevent them from doing so. And if separatism or inclusion is an individual choice, then it can only be seen as good or bad (or appropriate/inappropriate, etc.) on an individual basis.
 
 
6opow
10:08 / 19.05.03
“Iconoclast”?!--surely u jest, Sir, or intend to flatter: i consider miself not much more than a mere dilettante but obviously to u wise and enlightened elite of this Invisibles website i was merely using a linguistically constructed vehicle to propel miself fueled with the throes of irony’s demise in order that i may generate a reality tunnel truncation into mental/psychic separatist-(head)space thus invoking the nu mi-end of kultur triggering a terrible transformation of mi meager meat into transcended topologies thus severely shattering mi simple cyborg conditioning complex of manufactured memes that have run dry of steam and initiating the desperate deconstruction of the pure structuralized parody of mi owned square block textual ideas fanning further flames for mi alleged linguistic vehicle’s fire with sarcasm’s periodic but unpredictable decay proliferating the revolutionized revolution of mi owned subversive standards staving off this crummy carpet collective of Disney Channel’s crunk-cum-true which forcefully and diminutively dilutes the real mi into so utterly boring and hypocritical a hishasing however in my owned carrying out this gooterpalaftrix subquerlation and ferocious as a tyger burning in fearful symmetry raucously rising to the challenge claws crimson stained with the blood that bursts from mi owned collapsed conceptions i readily recognize that the quick and quiet consecration of mi owned buzzing words do nothing other than completely and consequently sever mi from any communication, relation, or contamination what so ever thus i have tritely transcended the totality of herd humanity but only to deliberately destroy the pretentious possibility of relating, replicating, or regurgitating any such supra-human unhypnonuaeon kultur to anyone but mi owned perpetually puzzling inanity of insanity thus effectively and efficiently cutting off miself in conceit from in any way consciously contributing to kultur or dutifully and drolly taking mi rightful, righteous, and ritualized proper place amongst the nu breed the better breed therefore i have successfully illustrated in concise, clear, and unique understanding mi owned superb and superiour superintelligentsia thus demonstratively denying everything i have craftily created and patiently placing miself right to left abreast amongst the rest of u superdulla humano-libero-post-objectivists politicalios with all ur old and worn out pro-human rhetoric thus re-becoming or better never unbecoming united with the brotherhood and camaraderie of all us anti-separatists who insist we all cheerfully conform to the said and sold separatism like we were some kind of disgruntled bodhisattvas who for whatever reasons didn’t want to step into the beyondo--like, DUH.
 
 
Leap
10:22 / 19.05.03
Kit Kat –

I think Leap may be thinking of the co-option of more tolerant or inclusive attitudes towards different cultures by advertising

Also the appropriation of cultural artefacts and practices in a pick-n-mix style that is degrading cultural definition into a single market-place; often replacing the trials needed by all these different cultures that would once have been required to obtain these artefacts with one standard trial – making enough money to buy it.

Moreover I doubt it has any relationship to how people really think about other cultures.

The presence of such a market would seem to suggest otherwise.

it does sound rather as if you are assuming that 'modern society' shares and promotes the agendas of global corporatism, and I don't think such a thing as a society can be said to have such a monolithic set of values

Not a monolithic set of values, but a primacy of a set of values within a society.

Also surely the extent of engagement which any other culture is and must be the choice of the individual - i.e. if someone wants to move away from their cultural heritage, it would be wrong to prevent them from doing so.

Personally, I would rather have a life that is based on the drawing on tradition and which changes at a trickle pace (and there are quite a few folk like me). We cannot do this however given the dominant paradigm of rapid-change imperialism. THAT, in my book, is oppressive and I oppose it.
 
 
Ganesh
10:33 / 19.05.03
6opo6: Yes, I jest.

Generally, I'd have thought the global corporate agenda (in so much as there can be considered a single global corporate agenda) signalled by "Coke-n-Disney" would be more akin to monoculturalism - gradual homogenisation of the world...
 
 
Leap
11:01 / 19.05.03
Ganesh –

Generally, I'd have thought the global corporate agenda (in so much as there can be considered a single global corporate agenda) signalled by "Coke-n-Disney" would be more akin to monoculturalism - gradual homogenisation of the world...

Generally I would agree that it is monoculturalism, but it has stolen multiculturalism’s clothes by promoting massive cultural interchange. Just like introducing a new predator into an ecosystem, GCI has proceeded to ravage its cultural environment for every resource, every product, it can gets its paws on (because there is no checking force set against it). Separatism is where some this super-predators prey have sought to escape to an island they hope the GCI super-predator will not reach before its “over predation” leads to its own downfall……
 
 
Ganesh
11:05 / 19.05.03
Well, yes, that would indeed constitute a form of separatism, perhaps even shading into survivalism...
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:14 / 19.05.03
Generally I would agree that it is monoculturalism, but it has stolen multiculturalism’s clothes by promoting massive cultural interchange. Just like introducing a new predator into an ecosystem - leap

I realise that this comparison makes sense to you (and the BNP), but it only makes sense to me if one views other cultures with a trepidation that borders on fear. I don't see differing cultures like that so the comparison seems decidedly odd to me.
 
 
Leap
11:19 / 19.05.03
It is not other cultures that I fear Lurid, it is the chaos that comes from largescale and rapid change. I welcome travel and cultural exchange, I just think it is happening so fast today (at the beck and call of GCI) that it is leaving many folks increasingly lacking a sound sense of identity.

By all means have commerce and exchange, but not the wholesale high-speed version we have today.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:21 / 19.05.03
Also the appropriation of cultural artefacts and practices in a pick-n-mix style that is degrading cultural definition into a single market-place; often replacing the trials needed by all these different cultures that would once have been required to obtain these artefacts with one standard trial – making enough money to buy it.

I do have some sympathy with what you are saying, but on the other hand I think it's good to try and understand other people's cultures. Not by buying fake tribal artefacts for the wall - that's consumption, and often I think a process by which the buyer shows his desire to acquire the attributes which he perceives that other culture to possess - or simply to display his status as travelled. But not everyone operates like that, and it is possible to engage with different cultures on other levels - to attempt to respect and understand them without trying to assimilate them.

The presence of such a market would seem to suggest otherwise.

As I said above, not everyone relates to other people through the market. Perhaps I should have added a 'necessarily' to my original post though, as yes, you have a point.

Not a monolithic set of values, but a primacy of a set of values within a society.

A better question might be, who holds these values within a society? That might be a more satisfactory way of discerning where the problem, if it is a problem, lies in such matters. So one way of looking at it might run:

It is a sign of wealth and power within a society to be able to travel, and one of the ways in which this is displayed is through the accumulation of exotic rarities which are exhibited, on the traveller's return, to his or her social peers; emulative consumption would then open a market for such exotic artefacts in the traveller's home society, and increasing availability would reduce their power as signifiers of social status. One possible outcome of this is that the culture from which the exotic artefacts originated can become 'devalued'; or viewed as a set of compartmentalised artefacts and attributes available to the traveller's culture.

The problem here might well be seen to lie, in fact, with the lack of contact with the 'other' culture...

... I'm still thinking this through, apologies if I'm less than coherent or wandering off topic.

Personally, I would rather have a life that is based on the drawing on tradition and which changes at a trickle pace (and there are quite a few folk like me). We cannot do this however given the dominant paradigm of rapid-change imperialism. THAT, in my book, is oppressive and I oppose it.

I am sure you could find a way to do it if you were really determined. Work on an organic farm. Move to the Highlands and start a croft. Learn to be a blacksmith. Change the system from within...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:29 / 19.05.03
I welcome travel and cultural exchange, I just think it is happening so fast today (at the beck and call of GCI) that it is leaving many folks increasingly lacking a sound sense of identity.

Which people are you talking about here, by the way? Just want to clarify...
 
 
Leap
11:45 / 19.05.03
Kit Kat –

by buying fake tribal artefacts for the wall - that's consumption, and often I think a process by which the buyer shows his desire to acquire the attributes which he perceives that other culture to possess - or simply to display his status as travelled.

I agree. “Dreamcatchers” are a good ‘standard’ example.

But not everyone operates like that, and it is possible to engage with different cultures on other levels - to attempt to respect and understand them without trying to assimilate them.

Again, I agree. But the corps do it en masse, more than making up for individual acts of respect!

As I said above, not everyone relates to other people through the market. Perhaps I should have added a 'necessarily' to my original post though, as yes, you have a point.

Again I agree – but many still do participate in such a market (check the wolf-n-warrior Nativeamericanesque t-shirts on many of the, for example, new age / neo-pagan communities)…..

The problem here might well be seen to lie, in fact, with the lack of contact with the 'other' culture...

A fair point……that I agree with to a certain extent.

I am sure you could find a way to do it if you were really determined. Work on an organic farm. Move to the Highlands and start a croft. Learn to be a blacksmith. Change the system from within...

It takes community to last in such a situation (apart from the fact I am more suited to a warmer clime (skin/hair colour, personal preference, tendency to tan rather than burn)) or more properly communitIES between whom trade can take place. As is, I am moving in this direction (we have two allotments, we all have bows [Mongolian – hmmm is that appropriation? ] (for which I fletch arrows), my work is primarily rural based, we support local (organic / freerange) producers through farmers markets) but have family commitments that tie me where I am (step kids).

Life is never quite as simple as idealists think

Which people are you talking about here, by the way? Just want to clarify...

The one’s who increasingly suffer from stress / depression related illness, or who want to “get out of the rat race”, or who are sick of their kids being unable to play in the street because we now tend to prioritise more to transport (car, bus, hgv) than community (leading to rat-running etc), or who protest against attacks on “liberty and liverlyhood”, or protest against “capitalism” stealing culture to become a product, or protest against yet more expansions to airports that are built because “air travel is a right not a privilege”.etc……etc.

Off the top of my head
 
 
Ganesh
11:53 / 19.05.03
Leap, it's something of a logical stretch to cluster all those disparate social stereotypes under the banner "lacking a sound sense of identity", much less attempt to quantify their number...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:28 / 19.05.03
Dreamcatchers, among other things, are discussed in this rather interesting thread.

There was an interesting one about the appropriation of tribal symbols in tattoos, or the basic dishonesty of white-man tattoos, but I think it was lost in the last boardquake.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
12:55 / 19.05.03
Again, I agree. But the corps do it en masse, more than making up for individual acts of respect!
Which seems dangerously close to the "sheep-like masses" argument that ends up being such a winner 'round here.
 
 
Leap
13:12 / 19.05.03
Rothkoid –

Again, I agree. But the corps do it en masse, more than making up for individual acts of respect!

Which seems dangerously close to the "sheep-like masses" argument that ends up being such a winner 'round here.

More a point on the mass market (and economies of scale) situation and the need to purchase identity items in a society increasingly stripped of community by its need for rapid movement (and thus requires that identity is increasingly product oriented rather than a factor of more subtle matters of ongoing shared experience, geography, dialect, etc.).

A good example of this is found in T-Shirts (wolves-n-warriors, “frankie says…”, Greenpeace, or whatever) and general product branding (from designer brands to “kappa slappers” – I remember seeing a shop selling its designer brands under the logo of “get a brand – get a life. Get a life – get a brand” (No I seriously genuinely came across this (“*South” in Chester, UK))).

You also see it on car badges (from wwf to “Christy fishes” to “sod the whale” stickers). Today, identities are increasingly built around brands and products (as a form of “gang colours”) – corps take advantage of this (especially the alleged link between Native-Americans and environmentalism)…..
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:20 / 19.05.03
and thus requires that identity is increasingly product oriented rather than a factor of more subtle matters of ongoing shared experience, geography, dialect, etc.

A false dichotomy. My identity falls into neither of those two categories in any simple way and nor do I want it to. (Shared experience is a red herring, however, since even buying Nike may constitute a shared experience).
 
 
Leap
13:35 / 19.05.03
Lurid –

A false dichotomy. My identity falls into neither of those two categories in any simple way and nor do I want it to.

My mistake. I intended to indicate a primacy of one or the other in our lives. You may not be a good example of most folks but given the economy of scale, mass production, high turnover, through away basis to society I would suggest such IS an accurate picture of the main.

(Shared experience is a red herring, however, since even buying Nike may constitute a shared experience).

Which is why I said “ongoing shared experience”. Identity used to be built gradually. Now it is increasingly purchased, instantly (and on credit card too!). Yet more of the “pedal to the metal” society….. We appear to be moving from geographically based community to product based community, as the prime factor in identity formation.
 
 
Quantum
14:05 / 19.05.03
My brand like many others is 'unbranded' but it's becoming increasingly difficult to get. Reminds me of a Calvin & Hobbes where he buys pajamas, simple red ones, and they cost twice as much as any others in the shop. He protests, the shopkeeper says 'But look, it doesn't have any cute little bunnies or cartoon cats on' and he buys them and leaves... no-brand as a superior brand.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
14:06 / 19.05.03
Identity used to be built gradually. Now it is increasingly purchased, instantly (and on credit card too!)
And how is selectivity of purchase not influential on one's identity, or at the very least a part of it? I purchase a lot of things, but they don't, like many people here, define who I am or what I have experienced. But my personality/identity does influence what I choose to purchase.

Again, your slew of generalisations (which will be watered down no less by the insertion of smileys) continue unabated.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:10 / 19.05.03
My mistake. I intended to indicate a primacy of one or the other in our lives. You may not be a good example of most folks but given the economy of scale, mass production, high turnover, through away basis to society I would suggest such IS an accurate picture of the main

Seriously, I still think you are clinging to your dichotomy. TBH, from my point of view, the consumer obsessed identity and your slightly nostalgic notion of identity seem equally unattractive to me. And I don't think I am so unusal in thinking so. Now, I wouldn't want to stop you finding a community where you feel comfortable. Unless, of course, this community conflicts with other peoples freedoms. Thats multiculturalism, IMO.

We appear to be moving from geographically based community to product based community, as the prime factor in identity formation.

I can't help feeling that you are turning a personal preference into something bigger. Some people will have an “ongoing shared experience” that is based around an image to do with the association of certain products and music, say. That seems to me a perfectly valid expression of culture - not that it is really my business.

I see problems with global capitalism and the insidious nature of corporate power, sure. But it seems patronising to judge someone else's culture as lacking, just because it isn't to my liking. Even if it has a basis in certain flawed structures.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:25 / 19.05.03
I agree with Lurid. In fact, one might say that moving away from geographical communities has made it easier for some people to find other people who have shared interests and experiences and to form communities based on that - a liberating experience in many cases, I imagine.

I'd hazard a guess that geographical communities (or at least communities which are primarily geographically based) have been undergoing change for a long time - probably two hundred years if not longer in some cases. There are many other ways of finding an identity, which are surely just as valid.
 
  

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