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'Pikey' 'Council' 'townie' - derogatory class rhetoric

 
  

Page: 1234(5)6

 
 
Quantum
18:25 / 15.05.06
changes to the UK political and economic landscape

Just to support Illmatic on that, rising poverty and debt and falling political & union involvement are factors IMO. As ever, Britain is doing exactly what America does but ten years later.
 
 
Bumbles
10:48 / 16.05.06

Hello, first post

I've been tossing this issue around in my head, and in conversation with friends for ages. I'm 'from' a council estate, but the rural version which is a whole lot nicer than a tower block. I also enjoy some of the trappings of middle-class life, like a reasonably well-paid techy job, shopping at Waitrose, disposable income, dinner parties, aspirations etc. etc. So, I don't really identify with the people I grew up with any more, and certainly not with rough-as-fuck types who are the typical 'chav'. In fact, I despise them, and fantasise about throwing them through the upstairs windows of a bus. Ahem.

But, I also think that they came from somewhere, and I definitely think it's to do with the policies mentioned by Illmatic, along with the wider move to a more commercial society, where advertising, aspirations, lack of education, cheap goods, brutal financial institutions, societal alienation, and God knows what else have combined to create this situation. Common to all people you might call 'chav' (and some mates have really pissed me off, calling Mums or little kids 'chavs', really nasty dehumanisation) is a lack of power, which has to be linked to their financial status. I was going to write social status but that has now been replaced by financial status, how good your credit report is etc. Unless you understand the rules of the game it's easy to get lost in it. So, I probably think that classism is more prevalent now, but then it normally hides behind ideas of fashion, money, odour...

I think you could turn this problem around by giving people a proper education in life. That is, teach them how life really works, how money really works, how health works, empower them to create, basically a dose of reality and a bit of trust. Won't work for everyone but it would be better than the National Curriculum. Sounds a bit blue-sky but I know so many people at home that are really sound and clever, but just don't have the confidence. And that could have been sorted in school.
 
 
Spaniel
12:21 / 16.05.06
Just in way of clarification, I'm not sure that when John referred to tribal conflicts he meant, exclusively, gang wars or gang fights, but rather the attendant dangers of being a member of any social group (as a teenager).
Correct me if I'm wrong, John.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:55 / 16.05.06
Bumbles:

[S]ome mates have really pissed me off, calling Mums or little kids 'chavs', really nasty dehumanisation... I probably think that classism is more prevalent now...

I think this is very true, and your annoyance with your friends is well-founded. But surely this:

I don't really identify with the people I grew up with any more, and certainly not with rough-as-fuck types who are the typical 'chav'. In fact, I despise them, and fantasise about throwing them through the upstairs windows of a bus.

...Could also be interpreted as nasty dehumanisation and classism. Couldn't it?
 
 
Bumbles
18:55 / 16.05.06
Yes, I agree - I've tried to both rise above the debate and at the same time tried to make a 'know what i mean?' appeal - a bit loose and not really on.

Being a bit more precise, I simply hate anti-social behaviour, whether it's from City suits or teenagers on the bus. The current vernacular seems to put more venom in comments about the latter.

There's more to say on this, I just need to think a bit more...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
01:27 / 17.05.06
Sounds a bit blue-sky but I know so many people at home that are really sound and clever, but just don't have the confidence. And that could have been sorted in school.

Good point here, B. I think a lot of it is about confidence, and confidence is decided by how much help your background gives you in dealing with the national curriculum. I know intelligent, funny lads who at 19/20 are now making a living out of nicking cars, simply because they didn't fit into what the school saw as the model for a good student- this model being essentially childlike and receptive, even at 14/15. They were closed out of the system, while other kids who were just as unpleasant/agressive but crucially knew how to play the system got through to university and good jobs.

This is another problem with a school system based increasingly on tests and exams at the expense of actually learning about the wider world- schools become a hub of the mundane meritocracy: a place where you go and get shit for not knowing enough, instead of a place where you can go to learn new and exciting stuff, and thus an immense turn-off to anyone who doesn't know the rewards.

The middle class kids who got out of my high school and to university didn't enjoy their time there anymore than the kids who didn't- they got through because they saw proof in their family that at the end of all the boring shit there was a good life (of some kind).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:45 / 17.05.06
Being a bit more precise, I simply hate anti-social behaviour, whether it's from City suits or teenagers on the bus. The current vernacular seems to put more venom in comments about the latter.

But it goes further than that - I think the whole concept of "anti-social behaviour" as recently enshrined in media and political rhetoric and ASBOs etc. is inherently screwed-up and class conscious. (Disclaimer: it could be that you've always used the term and weren't even thinking of the wider context of how it is most often currently used - that's the trouble with language.)

"Anti-social behaviour" is a moveable feast that encompasses everything from actual physical aggression through listening to your music too loud to, at its extreme, wearing the wrong item of clothing. For that reason I don't think it's a very useful term, and it's better to avoid it altogether and deal in specifics.
 
 
Bumbles
12:58 / 18.05.06

But it goes further than that - I think the whole concept of "anti-social behaviour" as recently enshrined in media and political rhetoric and ASBOs etc. is inherently screwed-up and class conscious. (Disclaimer: it could be that you've always used the term and weren't even thinking of the wider context of how it is most often currently used - that's the trouble with language.)


Yes, I see what you mean but the behaviour is real, and it does happen, very regularly in my experience. And no, for your information I happen to use that term off my own bat, shock horror! Anti-social kind of meaning 'I don't give a fuck how you feel, I'll act as though you don't matter'.

Fantasising about getting your own back against perceived bullies is probably very natural, and has nowt to do with class. I sincerely empathise with people who are made to feel isolated and threatened by no-good idiots. At the same time, I refuse to accept this situation came out of nowhere, and that locking people up is the solution.


"Anti-social behaviour" is a moveable feast that encompasses everything from actual physical aggression through listening to your music too loud to, at its extreme, wearing the wrong item of clothing. For that reason I don't think it's a very useful term, and it's better to avoid it altogether and deal in specifics.


I've never heard anyone being accused of anti-social behaviour for just wearing hoodies! Perhaps I've been reading the wrong papers.
 
 
Bumbles
13:03 / 18.05.06

The middle class kids who got out of my high school and to university didn't enjoy their time there anymore than the kids who didn't- they got through because they saw proof in their family that at the end of all the boring shit there was a good life (of some kind).


Yes, it's telling that most of my friends were middle-class. On top of being a bit different anyway (I liked books ) I was able to see that there was a way of life out there where you could slack about^H^H study and end up with a decent job!

I do think that school has changed in the last 10 years though, and because I'm well out of it I haven't got a clue how. Perhaps this is another factor in the 'chav' phenomenon.
 
 
T Blixius
18:17 / 20.05.06
I grew up in England, and I've been living in the States for more than 20 years now. I can definately attest that there is a much more defined class structure in UK society than there is in US society, where how you talk and where you grew up has much less to do than how much money you have. In the US, it appears more economically based. You could have lower-class dress and speech patterns but if you had money you'd get the respect due your monetary prowess. I'm not so sure that's as true in the UK, but I could be wrong, because the UK has changed to become alot more US-like in the years since I left, as I noticed on my visits there.
 
 
Ganesh
19:15 / 20.05.06
Yes, I see what you mean but the behaviour is real, and it does happen, very regularly in my experience. And no, for your information I happen to use that term off my own bat, shock horror! Anti-social kind of meaning 'I don't give a fuck how you feel, I'll act as though you don't matter'.

But it was Flyboy's point that, whether or not the behaviour is "real", it's subjectively (and, arguably, very poorly) defined. Could you give concrete examples of what you understand by "anti-social behaviour" in this context?
 
 
Ganesh
19:19 / 20.05.06
n the US, it appears more economically based. You could have lower-class dress and speech patterns but if you had money you'd get the respect due your monetary prowess.

I've noticed that American - and, interestingly, Indian - people have, relatively speaking, been quickest to bring conversation around to what one does for a living, sometimes embarrassingly bluntly. I guess that's about trying to place one in a financial hierarchy asap.
 
 
Cat Chant
11:07 / 22.05.06
I've never heard anyone being accused of anti-social behaviour for just wearing hoodies! Perhaps I've been reading the wrong papers.

Perhaps you have, Bumbles.
 
 
jamesPD
08:41 / 10.06.08
Ofcom assessing ITV 'pikey' jibe

Media regulator Ofcom is to consider if broadcasting rules were broken when the word "pikey" - a slang term for gypsy - was used in ITV1's sports coverage

Commentator Martin Brundle was interviewing Formula One chief Bernie Ecclestone before the Canadian Grand Prix, where part of the track crumbled.

"There are some pikeys there at turn 10 putting tarmac down - what do you think of that," he asked Ecclestone.

Ofcom said it had received seven complaints. ITV said sorry to viewers.


I'd be interested to see the final outcome of this.
 
 
one point, oh
15:27 / 12.06.08
The BBC website has an article on the same ITV 'pikey' bungle. I mention this not because the article is especially brilliant, but because I wish to quote the 'slang expert' they interview towards the end:

"The language of snobbishness and class distinction has come right back, with words like 'posh' or 'pleb' or 'prol', words I thought had disappeared in the late 60s. This is the language of social discrimination and it's quite shocking that this language is now being bandied about. It started with 'chav' and then the 'posh' stuff about David Cameron and Boris Johnson."

So, what's everyones' take? Are terms like 'posh' or, perhaps more so, 'toff' equally as prevelant and dismissive as terms like 'chav' and 'pikey'? I question this because whilst I do agree with the commentator that they are often used as derogatory class-ist terms I am not certain that they can really be so easily equated to 'chav'/'pikey'.

Aside from the obvious 'it's easier to take class-ism sympathy with those at the bottom of the socio-economic pile' argument, I also feel that the term 'chav' as had a much more profound effect on modern british society than 'toff' or 'posh' ever could. This is primarily because 'chav' is such a dismissive term that those addressed by it are either
1) Forced to distance themselves from it in such a way that stratifies the lowest rungs of society even further.
or, 2) Forced to accept it, a position which puts social mobility even further out of reach, and which can lead to the type of resignation where anti-social behaviour seems reasonable.
Meanwhile, at the other end of the spectrum, 'toff' and 'posh' aren't so clearly dangerous to me.
 
 
oryx
09:01 / 11.07.08
I recently re-read the Communist Manifesto. In that, Marx refers to "scum" - those elements of the working class that are its very worst elements. I think its perfectly possible to acknowledge that people can be "scum" (in Marx's words) and that this "scumminess" manifests itself along class lines, and it is not prejudicial to say so. The same argument applies to gender, for instance - some men manifest the worst excesses of aggressive sexist machismo, some women manifest the worst excesses of femininity in ditziness and complacent self-objectification, and so on.

Unfortunately, acknowledgement of the worst aspects of the working class that manifest themselves in ways that are particular to the working class, tends to come from people of greater priviledge, and become umbrella terms for the working class as a whole - and that is prejudice and discrimination.

Just for the record, I'm from a very working class background myself. I'm no longer working class, and very happy about it too. Deprivation and ignorance should no more be romanticised than they should be discriminated against.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:07 / 11.07.08
Could you apply the same argument to race also, oryx? I've nearly got it, but I can't quite put my finger on it...
 
 
oryx
09:50 / 11.07.08
"Could you apply the same argument to race also, oryx? I've nearly got it, but I can't quite put my finger on it... "

Well there's that black American comedian (I can't remember his name) who does a whole routine about the difference between "black" and "nigger", and this idea is the basis of the routine.

I think you could, yes, but you'd need to do so very carefully and with lots of explanations, qualifiers and provisos, because it'd be very easy to slide into racism, or something that could be construed as racism. I deliberately used gender as an example rather than race or sexuality because I didn't want to either get into a 10,000 word post or post something that might cause offence or be misconstrued.

Class is easier to talk about, I think, because since the 1980's its become so diffuse, and is seen as a less central social classifier or identity than race, gender, sexuality, etc.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:06 / 11.07.08
The comedian is Chris Rock, who regrets ever making that distinction in a humorous monologue, because from that moment on white people started using it in deadly seriousness to dust off and relaunch the distinction between house slaves and field slaves that had barely taken on the scent of mothballs.

This is great stuff, but I think we need to be bold, here.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:24 / 11.07.08
I deliberately used gender as an example rather than race or sexuality because I didn't want to either get into a 10,000 word post or post something that might cause offence or be misconstrued.

Using gender as an example is less provocative and requires less qualifiers than sexuality or race because...?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:06 / 11.07.08
I recently re-read the Communist Manifesto. In that, Marx refers to "scum" - those elements of the working class that are its very worst elements. I think its perfectly possible to acknowledge that people can be "scum" (in Marx's words) and that this "scumminess" manifests itself along class lines, and it is not prejudicial to say so.

Two questions here. First, can you show us the bit of Marx you're talking about, and secondly, are the people who go around calling other people 'chav' and 'scum' and so on - the behaviour this thread is ultimately about - actually doing so in a way that has anything to do with Marx, Marxism or indeed anything other than ignorant snobbery?

So, what's everyone's take? Are terms like 'posh' or, perhaps more so, 'toff' equally as prevelant and dismissive as terms like 'chav' and 'pikey'?

They're a lot less prevalent, and when they're used there's generally a bit more irony - and a creeping respect - than when people throw around 'chav'. People don't say 'I won't get the bus because it's always full of Toffs', while they might say 'I'm going to a posh restaraunt, I'll feel like a bit of a Toff'.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:36 / 11.07.08
I think it's a bit more complicated than that - "toffs" and "posh" can be used as terms of class war, usually by those old stagers in Class War, in fact, but are more generally social and behavioural rather than class distinctions. Cameron is wealthy, and expensively educated, and talks funny, and has a gigantic spoon-like head and miniscule features - all recognisable signifiers of poshness - but is he a major landowner or aristocratic in the Marxian sense?

On the "scum" - I _think_ that oryx is talking about what is called the lumpenproletariat in The German Ideology. These are workers who do not actually produce anything - con artists, dole cheats, bookmakers' runners, footpads, coppers' narks, butlers, personal shoppers, PAs and the like - and are a bad thing, as far as Marx is concerned, because they depend for sustenance on serving (or swindling) the bourgeoisie - their skills have no application in a Communist society - and are therefore by instinct reactionary and counter-revolutionary. Marx gets quite cross about these people, and at times refers to them as, effectively, an _underclass_ - a term that we are familiar with from the tabloids - even though some of them had far higher disposable incomes and standards of living than those workers involved in productive labour.

Since relatively few people, at least in Britain, is engaged in productive labour in Marx's sense, you probably have to waggle things about a bit.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:11 / 11.07.08
So correct me if I'm wrong - in the situation Marx is observing, there are actually other jobs to be had besides petty crime, PAhood and so on? If so, that makes that situation rather different to our own (there being today vast gaps in employment where factories, mills, shipyards and so on used to be).
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:13 / 11.07.08
Also, in order to legitimately refer to someone as - or at least to criticise someone for being - lumpenproletariat, wouldn't one actually have to be doing a non-lumpen job one's self? Where does that leave television presenters and people who write opinion collumns for the Mail? Or, indeed, All Acting Regiment?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:19 / 11.07.08
Well, bear in mind that my German and my Marx are not what they were - "scum" might be another group entirely, but it sounds familiar. And, yes, there is a problem with this, in that the pre-globalisation industrial structures which Marx describes in many cases no longer exist, forcing one either to stretch the meaning of production (one produces, e.g., answers to questions about how to unlock mobile phones, in basically the same relationship to your employer as a mill worker - you earn more money for him than he pays you to work) or acknowledge the problems inherent in basing your social commentary on a book written 150 years ago.

In the absence of a copy of The Commmunist Manifesto to hand, I would look for more detail on whether the "scum" Marx is talking about map precisely to townies, chavs or pikeys as they are represented now.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
09:15 / 12.07.08
I don't have a paper copy of The Communist Manifesto handy, but working from a online version, I can only find one use of the word 'scum':

The "dangerous class", the social scum, that passively rotting mass thrown off by the lowest layers of the old society, may, here and there, be swept into the movement by a proletarian revolution; its conditions of life, however, prepare it far more for the part of a bribed tool of reactionary intrigue.

I think Haus is right - what Marx is referring to here as 'the dangerous classes' is more commonly called the 'lumpenproletariat', at least in Marxian theory. Marx disliked them mainly because he saw them as being more likely to have a counter-revolutionary impact than anything else. The Wikipedia article on the term has a couple of interesting bits about how groups that Marx would probably have seen as part of the lumpenproletariat (mutineers, for example) have occasionally played roles in organised revolutionary movements. It also mentions that In modern Russian,[4] Turkish,[5], Persian, and Spanish, lumpen, the shortened form of lumpenproletariat, is sometimes used to refer to lower classes of society. The meaning of the term is roughly analogous to scrounger, riff raff, hoi polloi, white trash, bogan, or yobbo.

I don't personally think the term, or the theoretical framework it comes from, is actually terribly useful to thinking about modern day class rhetoric. A word like 'chav' often seems to mean "someone who doesn't have what I consider to be good taste", which I don't think maps at all neatly onto a Marxian analysis of society. More importantly , I think 'chavs' are probably seen as a threat to bourgeois society (wandering around shopping centres in hooded tops, drinking cider and scaring nice people); Marx's problem with the lumpenproletariat was that they made it harder to organise an effective revolutionary movement against the social order. Marx might or might not have seen lads in hooded tops as potentially counter-revolutionary, but I certainly don't think that what he meant by 'scum' (the one time that he seems to have used the term) is what anyone means when they use the word 'chav'.
 
 
oryx
08:12 / 13.07.08
Using gender as an example is less provocative and requires less qualifiers than sexuality or race because...?



I have no idea, and if it was up to me gender would still be as contested and problematic as race, sexuality, and so on. It just strikes me that despite 250-odd years of feminism, and 50-odd years of gay liberation, the categories of man/masculine and woman/feminine are popularly seen now as unproblematic. Certainly I don't feel the need to be as cautious when I'm talking about gender as I do when I'm talking about race. I feel there's less need to turn every second sentence into a deconstructive self-analysis in order to avoid being accused of sexism when talking about gender, than there is to avoid accusations of racism when talking about race.

But maybe I'm just being a bit self-conscious.
 
 
oryx
08:15 / 13.07.08
Since relatively few people, at least in Britain, is engaged in productive labour in Marx's sense, you probably have to waggle things about a bit.

Good point. I shall proceed to waggle as best I can!

By-the-by, I drew a blank when I tried to think of another philosopher that dealt with the distinction between working and middle class. Who else is there apart from Marx that has theorised class?
 
 
oryx
08:27 / 13.07.08
The "dangerous class", the social scum, that passively rotting mass thrown off by the lowest layers of the old society, may, here and there, be swept into the movement by a proletarian revolution; its conditions of life, however, prepare it far more for the part of a bribed tool of reactionary intrigue.

I think Haus is right - what Marx is referring to here as 'the dangerous classes' is more commonly called the 'lumpenproletariat', at least in Marxian theory. Marx disliked them mainly because he saw them as being more likely to have a counter-revolutionary impact than anything else. The Wikipedia article on the term has a couple of interesting bits about how groups that Marx would probably have seen as part of the lumpenproletariat (mutineers, for example) have occasionally played roles in organised revolutionary movements. It also mentions that In modern Russian,[4] Turkish,[5], Persian, and Spanish, lumpen, the shortened form of lumpenproletariat, is sometimes used to refer to lower classes of society. The meaning of the term is roughly analogous to scrounger, riff raff, hoi polloi, white trash, bogan, or yobbo.

I don't personally think the term, or the theoretical framework it comes from, is actually terribly useful to thinking about modern day class rhetoric. A word like 'chav' often seems to mean "someone who doesn't have what I consider to be good taste", which I don't think maps at all neatly onto a Marxian analysis of society. More importantly , I think 'chavs' are probably seen as a threat to bourgeois society (wandering around shopping centres in hooded tops, drinking cider and scaring nice people); Marx's problem with the lumpenproletariat was that they made it harder to organise an effective revolutionary movement against the social order. Marx might or might not have seen lads in hooded tops as potentially counter-revolutionary, but I certainly don't think that what he meant by 'scum' (the one time that he seems to have used the term) is what anyone means when they use the word 'chav'.



Good points there.

Fistly, there's the issue of definition. Personally I think that "chav" refers precisely to the potential for the sorts of criminal and non-normative behaviour that are associated with white working class. I think "chav" is about far more than a matter of taste in dress etc. This is why I referred to Marx's notion of "scum" - and thank-you for finding the quote. That's precisely the one I was thinking of.

Secondly, making Marx "fit" is very difficult, I agree, but as I say above, who else has theorised class distinctions so thoroughly?

To my mind chavs are white working class, but not all white working class are chavs.

And finally - another point. The white working class are disparaged with terms like "chav" because it stereotypes what is seen as "wrong" with them. I reckon the reason we don't have a similar disparaging term for the middle class, however badly they may behave when, for instance, it comes to getting their kids into the right school, is because the middle classes are "playing the game" as it were. They're sustaining contemporary social norms, where "chavs" are a grotesque parody of them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:51 / 13.07.08
I have no idea where to go with this except to suggest a look at this.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:36 / 13.07.08
OK. Let's try looking at this:

Fistly, there's the issue of definition. Personally I think that "chav" refers precisely to the potential for the sorts of criminal and non-normative behaviour that are associated with white working class. I think "chav" is about far more than a matter of taste in dress etc. This is why I referred to Marx's notion of "scum" - and thank-you for finding the quote. That's precisely the one I was thinking of.

I think first off it's worth remembering that Marx is not talking about "chavs" or about anything like "chavs" in that passage. It simply doesn't apply, really. What you want him to be talking about is the so-called criminal underclass - a group hedged in by a series of resentments imposed from above. This is also what you want "chav" to mean - a simple denotator for the people you don't like, which is always and only applied to the faex plebiana - the same Hogarthian criminals found frequenting Gin Lane in improving woodcuts.

However, it simply ain't so. When, for example, Rose Tyler or in a subject-object confusion Billie Piper is called a chav,she is not being called a criminal. She is being called common.

Secondly, making Marx "fit" is very difficult, I agree, but as I say above, who else has theorised class distinctions so thoroughly?

Well, Marx didn't say anything about chavs, and his idea of the lumpenproletariat is totally different from your idea of the chav, so it's not so much that he doesn't fit as that you are trying to wear a pair of trousers as a sweater. In these conditions, it's often better to think through the distinctions and then see how they line up with theory. However, we could look at Debord, Gramsci, Althusser - in the tradition of Marxist thought on class. However, the "chav" is really a very recent semiological innovation, although it has easy antecedents in models of the undeserving poor - most recently the dole cheats of the 80s, with whom they share many characteristics - idleness combined with a resentment-inspiring feeling that they are living well on undeserved, immoral earnings. There's a racial element with chavs, also, which puts my back up rather, but which is discussed at some length in this thread so need not delay us here.

To my mind chavs are white working class, but not all white working class are chavs.

Which basically takes us back to Chris Rock - but remember, Chris Rock is a humorist. He never intended his joke to be a way for white people to separate out worthy and unworthy black people. I thhink you're suffering from a fairly common bit of cognitive dissonance, where "chav" is both a label applied to people by external forces - see your comment below about how the middle classes are not criticised for acting badly because they define what constitutues acting well in the first place - but also a zoological taxonomy - that there are people who simply are "chavs", and that is all that there is to it; a chavologist can pick these out from the herds of the white working class just as an expert in arthropods can distinguish species of bees by thorax banding.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
00:08 / 14.07.08
By-the-by, I drew a blank when I tried to think of another philosopher that dealt with the distinction between working and middle class. Who else is there apart from Marx that has theorised class?

Well almost anyone working in the Marxist tradition has to deal with the concept to some extent - the three writers mentioned by Haus are good examples, as each of them dealt with class in a slightly more nuanced way than Marx himself. Gramsci in particular was interested in why the working class might not be especially in overthrowing the bourgeois state, and came up with the idea of hegemony to explain this - basically fairly similar to your idea of 'middle class values' being synonomous with 'contemporary social norms'.

The most important non-Marxist thinker to deal with class is probably Max Weber. He differentiated between class (an individual's relationship to the market), status (determined by religion and prestige, not economic factors), and what he called 'party' (political affiliation).

Hopefully I'll have time to add a bit more to this later.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
03:13 / 14.07.08
Oops - wrote that before my morning coffee. Gramsci in particular was interested in why the working class might not be especially in overthrowing the bourgeois state should be "Gramsci in particular was interested in why the working class might not be especially interested in overthrowing the bourgeois state", which is not a terribly elegant sentence anyway.

Anyway, what I wanted to add is that I still don't think any of this is very useful for a discussion of the word 'chav'. If we were able to unproblematically identify 'chav' with 'elements of the working class with anti-social tendencies which make it harder for progressive forces in society to achieve greater social equality', then Marxist theory might be useful - however, I really don't believe we can do that. I think that if you want to find a theoretical framework for thinking about the way in which words like 'chav' are actually used in contemporary Britain, you'd be much better off looking at someone like Judith Butler. There's an interesting article here which takes a slightly similar approach. Although it doesn't actually mention Butler, it does see the word 'chav' as an example of performative speech:

The process of making white lower class identity filthy is an attempt to differentiate between respectable and non-respectable forms of whiteness (and an attempt to abject the white poor from spheres of white privilege).

I think there is actually an interesting discussion to be had on whether or not Marxist theory is useful for thinking about contemporary British youth culture (assuming such a thing exists) - I just don't think such a discussion would have much to do with the word 'chav'.
 
 
oryx
20:57 / 17.07.08
I think first off it's worth remembering that Marx is not talking about "chavs" or about anything like "chavs" in that passage. It simply doesn't apply, really. What you want him to be talking about is the so-called criminal underclass - a group hedged in by a series of resentments imposed from above. This is also what you want "chav" to mean - a simple denotator for the people you don't like, which is always and only applied to the faex plebiana - the same Hogarthian criminals found frequenting Gin Lane in improving woodcuts. [...] Well, Marx didn't say anything about chavs, and his idea of the lumpenproletariat is totally different from your idea of the chav, so it's not so much that he doesn't fit as that you are trying to wear a pair of trousers as a sweater.

Indeed Marx didn't use the word "chav" - but that's probably because it was only invented in the early years of this century. In the 1980's and 90's a similar term was used but only in dialect in Newcastle. That word was "charver", sometimes shortened to "charv." Similar words from other working class areas include "ned" and "scally". My grandmother used the word "common" to the same end, in the 1970's. The term changes over time, the people it refers to, which is to say the lowest level of the white working class, do not.

There is also a difference between the lumpenproletariat and the "scum" of the Communist Manifesto.

And I don't want Marx to be talking about anything at all. My point is that there is a historical antecedent for the problem of a certain aspect of the white British working class that even their greatest defender acknowledged.

you don't like,

I don't like? I have not expressed a personal opinion on the matter, so please don't speculate on my motivation in this debate. As rhetoric goes, it's pretty damn lazy. Unless of course this is "you" as in "one", in which case I take that back.

Which basically takes us back to Chris Rock - but remember, Chris Rock is a humorist. He never intended his joke to be a way for white people to separate out worthy and unworthy black people.

I didn't realise only black people could enjoy Chris Rock's jokes. Nor did I realise I couldn't take his point about the ways in which disempowered black people are labelled and articulated in ways that maintain their disempowerment and apply it to other modes of social disempowerment, like class. Is there a reason why I shouldn't? Other than a misplaced, out-of-date notion of political correctness that plays into the hands of prejudice by strategically arguing in favour of a cultural difference that maintains, unwittingly or otherwise, the cultural status quo with white, middle-class men at the top of the tree, that is?

Debord, Gramsci, Althusser are all Marxist. Thanks though to museum for reminding me about Max Weber. That's precisely the sort of suggestion I was hoping for.

And now I'm going to read some Weber, as I've not really looked at him for, erm, several years now. I agree though that there is a discussion to be had about the relevance of classical (by which I mean Marxist) class distinctions and theory in contemporary Britain.

FWIW, I'm not convinced that Butlerian performativity would be terribly helpful, for class, gender, or anything else. It smacks rather too much of voluntarism for my tastes, especially in the media-friendly Butler-lite versions that are doing the rounds these days. Ideas about consumption might be interesting, though, given that class distinction was originally based on production, and we now, allegedly, live in a consumer society.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:12 / 17.07.08
I didn't realise only black people could enjoy Chris Rock's jokes. Nor did I realise I couldn't take his point about the ways in which disempowered black people are labelled and articulated in ways that maintain their disempowerment and apply it to other modes of social disempowerment, like class. Is there a reason why I shouldn't?

You might have remembered saying:

Well there's that black American comedian (I can't remember his name) who does a whole routine about the difference between "black" and "nigger", and this idea is the basis of the routine.

I'm sorry you didn't remember that.

You seem to be a bit confused about chavs. As I said above:

I think you're suffering from a fairly common bit of cognitive dissonance, where "chav" is both a label applied to people by external forces - see your comment below about how the middle classes are not criticised for acting badly because they define what constitutes acting well in the first place - but also a zoological taxonomy - that there are people who simply are "chavs", and that is all that there is to it; a chavologist can pick these out from the herds of the white working class just as an expert in arthropods can distinguish species of bees by thorax banding.


You just did that again, I think. Are you saying that chav is a term imposed from above, or are you saying that there is an identifiable class of "scum", who exhibit the worst traits of the working classes?


Oh, and as for you not liking the "scum" - I think lazy rhetoric is probably manifested by trying to deny that this is a reasonable inference from:

I think its perfectly possible to acknowledge that people can be "scum" (in Marx's words) and that this "scumminess" manifests itself along class lines, and it is not prejudicial to say so. The same argument applies to gender, for instance - some men manifest the worst excesses of aggressive sexist machismo, some women manifest the worst excesses of femininity in ditziness and complacent self-objectification, and so on.

You appear to have realised that you have misjudged your audience, such as it is, and are backpedalling by portraying the "scum" as victims of labelling aimed at their disempowerment - presumably just as "ditzy" women are being labelled (by you, in this case) for the same nefarious purposes. This is fine, but it might be best to be a little gracious about it.
 
  

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