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'Pikey' 'Council' 'townie' - derogatory class rhetoric

 
  

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No star here laces
11:07 / 17.02.03
So I've noticed it's become acceptable for middle-class/educated people to use derogatory slang to refer to the sportswear-clad working class demographic.

'The pikey test' is currently circulating on email and makes 'hilarious' reference to cheap products such as Findus lasagna and Iceland supermarkets. Popbitch calls Girls Aloud 'council' for daring to look a little less than polished. I hear people using these terms in conversation all the time. Also the sportswear-hate that goes on in many circles has a distinctly class-ist tone to it.

So: was the 90s a golden age of relatively discreet class antagonism? Or in our 'meritocratic' society, is it okay to mock the poor/lacking in taste as it's their own fault anyway?

Thoughts on a postcard (cos slang is one of our favourite head shop topics, innit?)
 
 
.
11:47 / 17.02.03
I'm not convinced that this is a class slur at all- it seems to me (recalling my school days) to just be the latest manifestation of youth culture tribalism. In other words, metlers (or grungers/ narnies/ whatever they call themselves nowadays) have a go at the ravers (you can tell how long ago I was in school), who have a go at the b-boys, who have a go at the ra-ras. Etc etc. OK, so some youth culture "tribes" do tend to be alligned along class divisions, but that's an arbitrary factor- they can also be caused by geographical or age divides.
 
 
Sax
11:54 / 17.02.03
I don't think "council" or "swampy" or whatever hate is a youth culture thing at all, really. Isn't it a case of the aspirational middle classes who may well have "escaped" from council estate origins shutting the door behind them and not wanting any of those scrounging bastards who they grew up with moving into their nice cul-de-sac of Tudorbethan homes (circa 1996), parking their old oil-leaking Volvos on the drives and sticking up Sky dishes everywhere?

Baseball caps and tracky bottoms with white socks. They're the subculture it's okay to hate. Largely because they're mainly white, so no fear of compromising those newly-acquired liberal sensitivities there.
 
 
Smoothly
12:19 / 17.02.03
Byron Bitchlaces is Julie Birchill, and I collect my £5 worth of scratchcards.
 
 
glassonion
12:21 / 17.02.03
you forgot 'schemie'. white well educated middle class po' bois like me get called pikies all the time. don't worry about it. football hooligan chic is all about where its at, white sox, gola trainers, suedeheads, but with a seventies / eighties retro flavour, fred perry lacoste and sergio tachini rather than yr actual burberry shit the proper hooligans wear these days.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:27 / 17.02.03
Is this just a reaction to the rich-kid-slumming that was Britpop? I want to live with common people like you!
 
 
Smoothly
12:34 / 17.02.03
...because they think being poor is coooool

To be honest I hadn't really noticed this trend, except on Popbitch where it was always thus. But as we know, Popbitchers are a bunch of mongs.
 
 
.
13:02 / 17.02.03
Just because council may be used in the same way as townie doesn't necessarily mean that the essential part of the slur is the class identity. In use, townie can be substituted with ralphie, kevs and trevs, shirts and shoes... (I'm sure there are more). Of these, two relate to clothes, one to names (possibly class-related then?), and one to geographical location.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:25 / 17.02.03
no. class-ism is not more prevalent now. maybe in yer poncey fuckin shtile mags Bitch-me-lad, maybe you'll find it there.

you try and share some sweaty air with these cunts - on the train, on the buses, in the pubs, in the clubs. In yer bloody workplace too. They don't like you, they think you're a posh cunt and they will hit you if they can reach.

It's prevalent now and it was prevalent in the 90's too. (seriously, I noticed no dip in such patter dan le 90's)

The reason: theres too many off them and they're fuckin unreasonable.

Also - they smell.
 
 
.
13:27 / 17.02.03
Baseball caps and tracky bottoms with white socks. They're the subculture it's okay to hate. Largely because they're mainly white, so no fear of compromising those newly-acquired liberal sensitivities there. So says Sax.

I admit that I do have a problem with a lot of the people who make up this subculture. It tends to be the case that these clothes and accent are unfortunately rather good indicators of a bigoted mindset. OK, so that's a terrible generalisation, and I have certainly met people who go against this stereotype. But, out in the world at large, say in a typical london pub approaching last orders, my survival instinct has taught me to avoid certain types of people. Being liberal doesn't mean being naive...
 
 
glassonion
13:41 / 17.02.03
indeed. clothes maketh and all that. for all albarnian britpop's slumloving, cocker et al's revolt into style was also about genuinely poor people [northerners even] who violently feared and hated traditional conservative working class ethics. in truth, middle-class townies with their disposable cash are a lot scarier than working-class ones. and don't forget the aspirational qualities of the gallaghers, the most avowedly woking class of the lot.

middle england remains deeply aspirational and still makes itself feel better by laughing at the povs. i mean fuck it, they're funny when they're not being scary.

christ now i sound like julie burchill. where was i yes, england propels with simple approach/avoid oppositional models. for my own part in this, i and mine are planning to leave groovy brighton for the cheaper territories of the frozen yorks. having one's every eccentricity unquestioningly accepted has lead only to inertia. there are townies here too, but they've either seen it all before and are really nice or they 're pissed and they just go for you with a bottle of wkd. pointing, taunts and an opportunity to run away, that;s all i ask for
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:49 / 17.02.03
It is, however, possible that the terminologies of classism are filtering downwards as the pressure to define "other" is moved away from questions of race and sexuality, for fear of being picked up by a PC gone Mad (with his helmet all askew), and thus have become more popular in, to quote, Bitchlaces' poncy style mags because they can no longer use terminologies of race or sexuality so freely (could they ever? Or more precisely *did* they ever?); therefore "common" is a way of creating distance and alienation where "black" or "gay" are no longer house style. Also, of course, many of these poncy style mags might see blackness or gayness as in some ways aspirational positions, but that probably doesn't apply on other levels.

One interesting possible avenue might be the metonymic function of some such epithets - where they are being used to *suggest* blackness in particular without suggesting that skin colour is in any way relevant (we might want to reference back to the discussions on the "criminal underclass" here). Another might be that the last two posts, yawn's and iivix's, have both talked about those situations in which one is *forced* to associate with the "cunts"; the principle beign presumably that it would be healthier if this otherable faction coudl be kept separate, particularly in situations where they can compensate for their lack of smarts through the judicious application of physical violence. Is the problem here that, without that facility for violence, either we or BB's poncty style mags, depending on where you want to draw the boundaries, are retaliating using the weapons we have? Who has the power here?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
14:06 / 17.02.03
Smoothly Weaving got there before I did - Burchill made this point in a recent column, from where I first heard the term 'Pram face' - a woman who looks like she should be pushing a pram on a council estate. Which was given to one of Girls Aloud, I think. It's the same bullshit that Jade from the recent Big Brother household had to go through. So why is it that young working class men who make it, i.e The Streets, are seen as 'real', streetwise, yobby in a desirable way, but women from the same backgrounds are despised when they don't stay in their place?
 
 
Sax
14:06 / 17.02.03
It tends to be the case that these clothes and accent are unfortunately rather good indicators of a bigoted mindset. - ivix

I was just about to respond to this then I wondered if you were being ironic. I'm honestly not sure now. So "these clothes" - urban sports gear, presumably - and "these accents" - what, Cockney? Northern? Anything provincial? - are good indicators that the possessors of such are grunting Neanderthals with a propensity for violence and inherent racist and intolerant behaviour?

Has anyone used the phrase "white trash" yet?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:14 / 17.02.03
All through school I was that weird little gothic girl you see in the corner who hates speaking to everyone else. Anyhoo we were like at war with the townie's and the kev's with their bodykitted cars and the sub's in the boot and really hated each other for years because it was a taste thing. We hated the music the other group listened to, we hated their clothes, we hated the drugs they took and the way they walked etc. Basically it was a game that began at the age of fourteen and ended when I was about seventeen but the terms stick with you because you've used them for years and everyone knows what you're talking about when you use them. So I'm with the youth culture theory and maybe the language has just spread out a bit and the hang up's continue without you consciously accepting them.
 
 
illmatic
14:43 / 17.02.03
Interesting topic Byron – one angle on this is that consciousness of racial issues is less challenging than class, because class politics implies re-distribution of wealth and a long hard look at economic issues. If you start looking at things through the lens of class rather than race you get some interesting perspectives. A case in point would be the riots in Oldham – surely both sides had a lot of the same things to be angry about – unemployment, the death of manufacturing, how the working classes how no say in the political processes now there traditional party is closer to big business than the Tories etc. - these seem to me complex and challenging issues. But It’s easy to wheel out the fucking BNP (because Nasty Nick Griffin always makes a good story) and play it as a fight between the races.

Perhaps this is less challenging for the journos involved, who feel no sense of empathy with the shell suited masses. (Probably because they got there arses kicked by the yobbo filth back in their student days).
 
 
.
15:33 / 17.02.03
"these clothes" - urban sports gear, presumably - and "these accents" - what, Cockney? Northern? Anything provincial? Sax.

Clothes- Sports gear. Accent- Estuary. Ironic? Sadly not. Sometimes snap judgements come in useful, no?

NB. As accents go, Cockney is fairly rare nowadays.
 
 
No star here laces
15:37 / 17.02.03
Damn. Didn't know about the Burchill article. Someday, Julie, I will get there first...

To pick up the youth culture point - I don't accept that this is anything other than a class issue. I have met very very few working class goths in my life and very very few University-educated 'Kevs'. The current youth culture split between the hip-hop/garage axis and the plastic punks/nu-metal types seems also to be absolutely class-determined (in the school years, anyhow). One could contrast the price difference between Sum 41 hoodies and Adidas tracksuits for economic confirmation of this fact.

Personally, as a societal current I trace it to the language of meritocracy and the shift from manufacturing to services as the working-class employment of choice. The people who make the cars you drive can earn some respect, but the ones who answer the phone at the gas company are always treated with derision. Similarly Blair's "meritocracy" directly implies that anyone who hasn't made it must be scum.

Finally that confounded Llewellyn-Bowen, obviously...
 
 
Shortfatdyke
15:48 / 17.02.03
Well, it's still a good topic for discussion. And let's face it, if you'd started by quoting Burchill, this thread would just be about slagging the woman off instead of discussing the issue.
 
 
JohnnyYen
18:14 / 17.02.03
I'd vote Burchill if she was a political party. But in a desperate attempt to stay on topic...

You can't tell me calling people "Pikey" isn't full of hatred. It started off as an epithet applied to Irish Travellers, then got extended to all Irish people, and only recently became "anyone who looks a bit poor and liked Pop Idol". I heard two men in Manchester United shirts using it the other day, and couldn't help wondering if they'd use it in front of (born to an Irish Traveller family) Roy Keane.

I also heard a student here (Preston) say that "this town'd be alright if it wasn't full of townies". Yeah, that'd be fucking great. Except there'd be nobody to sell you Radiohead records, pay your fucking council tax, empty your bins, dress your wounds when someone gets sick of your obvious hatred and contempt, etc.

As regards the BNP in places like Burnley, Oldham etc. - everything I've read in the media seems to say "How DARE these council-estate dwellers be resentful! Everyone knows ethnic minorities have it even worse!" The fact is these people HAVE been utterly shat on, exploited and robbed. It wasn't blacks and Asians who did it, it was rich white men and their tame political system.

And before anyone think's I'm backing the so-called "Radical Left" - every time a BNP councillor is elected/the BNP wants to march/it all kicks off again, the Left are on the spot rapidly. I've never seen them on a council estate BEFORE the people vote BNP, because they're too busy trying to get elected onto NUS committees or marching against GM food. One of the reasons the BNP did well in Burnley was that months before the election, they quietly set up an office in the shitty estates, and started helping people fill in the endless forms that come with poverty nowadays, taking up grievances with the council, etc. The sort of gratitude these simple people felt when SOMEBODY came round in a suit without a warrant must have been huge. Most of them will have refused to vote for the BNP's abhorrent policies, but maybe if the far Left did that THEY might have a few councillors now.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:52 / 17.02.03
I'm not sure I'd agree that this has become particularly more prevalent in recent years, but I do agree with Byron's basic point. I do agree with Uncle Noam on this one, too: class war exists, and it's largely the privileged classes making war on the underprivileged ones. We had this discussion before, only then it was about the "criminal underclass", and those who refused to blame the weaker party were also called 'naive' then. Whatever. I think Haus has a point about the middle classes running out of socially acceptable groups to vilify, but I think this is also due to the way in which New Labour has made it not only acceptable but actively aspirational for supposedly left-wing people to vilify on a class basis.

259 [iivix] - and can't tell if yawn's taking the piss or not, but if he's not this goes for him too - you are a fucking bigot. It's just that simple. Sorry, but I am spitting mad now and have already edited this down to limit the vitriol several times...
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:36 / 17.02.03
I don't dispute the existence of a class war, or of the vilification of certain groups, but I'm not sure that this is an uncomplicated class issue. For instance BB says,

I don't accept that this is anything other than a class issue. I have met very very few working class goths in my life

which isn't my experience at all. There are a lot of middle class goths who tend to be more on the outskirts of the scene and therefore more accessible. But there are lots who are working class as well. I'll admit that the working class people tend to be more punk, but the point remains that the division isn't entirely class based.

Whether the point remains broadly valid is another matter. It probably is, but I think one would need a broader view to really do it justice.
 
 
creation
21:52 / 17.02.03
I live in an area which is predominantly classed as working class. I think that clasism works both ways. I think that the working class can make prejudicial statements agaisnt those with a better social standing than themselves.

I am not sure which region I fall into, with my father being a migrant to this country, through the 'honoured' citizenship his father recieved from the British government, his dad, my grandfather became a civil servant in India working for the British government, before that he was a General in the British army fighting for the British during the early to mid stages of the 1st world war.

My father was educated in India, and then to cambridge to become a doctor of medicine. I feel it a pre-requesite to give the premis for my statement, thus me explaining some of my past family history

To that matter at hand, my father has moved around from place to place, till in the mid eighties he settled in a working class area opening surgery there, and practicing. All my life, I feel as though I have lead to lives, one which is limited and non-abstract, this is that of the bonds which i held with my working-class friends, the other was with my fathers` and his brothers son/daughters, who were of higher social standing, but were lacking what the realist/working class held.

Trends/Culture
I feel that the main variation in class is realism. The working class children of whom i knew. Were suffering economic worries most of the time i knew them, thus their transgressions during any intelligable argument was pointed towas, 'the posh bastards' and comments made displayed extreme hatred and distaste for anything the other class were doing, when these friends came around, and my father had prokofiev in the background the fround, suggesting how 'crap' it was, conversely when my cousins came around, and anything resembling hip-hop or dance was one, the frownd, suggesting the lack of taste on my behalf, in listening to such vile music.

Clothing/Fashion

Coming to clothing, which you stated, again taste, and perspicacity of the momment in which one is caught within. I found myself 'wanting' addidas, tracksuits and the latest 'AirMax' this was due to wanting an inter-group lead over the group I was in. This microcosmic political stance of owning the 'newest' pair of trainers was desired amid those who I knew. On retrospect and analysis such post-modern identities came through group dynamics i was apart of.

Comparing this to my other firends, relations, their clothing was selected by their parents, a fetching tweed jacket, with a plush shirt, was what their mothers wanted them to fashion.

Goals/Desideratum

I found the aquisitional aspirations between both groups to be the biggest variable between them. The W/C group wanted a career in music or sports, which are the most accecible and proven forms of aquiring wealth in their eyes. One of the guys made me laugh, when he stated his soul aim was to operate a digger. I am trying very hard not be elitist here, as these people have been very important in grounding my feet, to where it should be.

The M/C crowd, also had high apirations, but goals, they have seen been proven by their older ciblings, the popluar choice, if i can recall correctly were, Actuaries, Accountants, Barristers, Vetnarians, Doctors, Architects, and the more ambitious amid them wanted to be authors and meuseum curators.

The academia is the most lacking in the w/c group, non of them did any reading of any sort after school, when i vistied their houses, many hours were spent playing on games or watching cartoons on televison. I have since a young age been very curious, and my fathers initial push into me reading books was the drink to my unquenchable thirst for knowledge i still have today. I think the quest for knowledge should be a personal choice, as I could have easily gone down the other path and become a placid indolent being. My environment though, could have been a factor, my fathers knowledge of so many things spurred me to study more and more. His disdain with issues medicine related or other wise was high, thus me following in that line of wanting to know more.

Television is an evil that consumes allot of time today, I think that selective viewing should be imposed on children at a young age. It may not seem the obvious choice, but I feel that the Simpsons provides a nice platform for children to learn satire etc. It can be learning without the 'uncool' factor. Like the issues raised with time and space, race relations the infrances to litrature etc, are all usefull in my eyes.

I feel that reality TV and modern pop music will be the death of intelligent thought as we know it. Media plays a huge part in sociliaising our children, and by placing more and more reality TV, such as the unforgiveably heinous waste of time that is the 'salon' Grrrr!! sorry i am getting off topic, but otiose programming can do nothing but further sublimate the group bounds. There is no tangiable programming, which in any sense is abstract on TV, which is accessible by the mass.

Abstract reasoning is the key to intellect, and learning. Assimilated learning teaching past ideals and doctrines only help the mechanisation I see. There is no asking the student as to what they think, this lack of communication means that allot of abstract reasoning is being unheard, as they are being elayed through education. Consolidating and approving a thought, can in one word be the soul factor, in making a child think in an abstract sense.

In my conclusion, I feel there is a vast gap between classes, this i feel is caused through on one hand the media and on the other the ignorant individuals, who feel that complacent existance is the best way of coping with the dire circumstances in which they live..

/CR
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
03:17 / 18.02.03
I feel that reality TV and modern pop music will be the death of intelligent thought as we know it.

It may be more a music topic, but unpack, please.
 
 
Sax
06:12 / 18.02.03
Well, to jump in with both feet before that statement is unpacked, I think it's absolute bollocks. Those who villify so-called "reality TV" and pop music are the biggest snobs on the planet. Middle England is horrified by reality TV because it's evidence of the great unwashed taking over the schedules and entertaining themselves. I love the concept. And I'd rather watch Wife Swap than the South Bank Show anyday.

I think it was Chris Evans who recently shook up a TV industry jolly by telling the assembled executives: "The public are so pissed off with the crap we're turning out that they've decided to do the job themselves. And they're doing it better than us" or words to that effect. And for one time in his life he was right.
 
 
.
10:33 / 18.02.03
259 [iivix] - you are a fucking bigot

Strong words indeed!

If loathing a certain demographic who demonstrate all the signs of glorifying stupidity and making a virtue out of bitterness (after all, The Sun has a lot of readers no?) makes me a bigot, then so be it. I know it's a generalisation, and I'm always open to see the exceptions to the rule. In an ideal world, we'd all do away with such generalisations, but it's not an ideal world.

BUT, and I'll say this again, it's not a class thing (nor is it a race thing). I don't need to dislike people because of their class or race when there are genuine things to dislike about them. Do you even know what class I am? The next time Rebekah Wade launches a lynch mob against some unfortunate, ahem, paediatrician, will I be forbidden from denouncing the mob in case it's read as a class slur?
 
 
creation
10:50 / 18.02.03
Thank you for replying.

I don’t think there is any substance to reality TV at all. Yes wife swap was good. But that was more of an introspection into someone’s life given set variables, so it can be seen to be worth something, however little that worth maybe. Compare this to the crap that is the
'salon' which takes up around 10hrs a week with salon, salon night, salon omnibus.., why does valuable time have to be taken by faeces that feeds the lows common dominator?

You tell me what societal impact, or shift in thinking this piece of rubbish is going to make? The same with big brother, I am celebrity get me out of here, and the rest of the tripe which TV bosses have created, I am not even going to start on pop-idol or stars, as they are amid the biggest wastes of time I have ever had the misfortune of knowing.

I am not asking for a complete overhaul in programming to represent reality and in doing so, taking away escapism, but I some kind of halting to the complete re-hashing of old by-gone programming again and again. The TV bosses want to make money no doubt, but at what cost, making a wider society feel more empathy toward a pop-idol, than a child in Iraq. Without becoming a complete conspiricist. It seems that people care less of other nations, when compared to their favourite celebrity, they are more likely to pick up the star than a broad sheet, and at the mention of world matters, they hide under the cling-film of knowledge that itv provides them.

I have major issues with ITV, I don’t know who owns the channel, but it seems to be a continual waste of space. The only channels worth watching IMO are BBC1 (20%) BBC2 (25%) (ITV) 1% (C4) 50% (C5) 4%, I do believe that reality TV will be the end of awareness... with 300,000 watching 24hr coverage of big brother.. It is alarming how people could so be taken by empty soulless programming. It can serve no purpose but moral degeneration (OMG I sound like marry Whitehouse) but entertaining programming can be done without it being boring.

The common channel of choice between political apathesists seem to be ITV, who believe they deliver 'quality' programming. If Ant and Dec are children’s presenters of choice, then may 'god' help us all. I am glad that there attempts to teach politics at unmatchable hours... How many people on the streets really know about the Russian revolution, or the real meaning and ideologies of Nazism? When you breed extreme ignorance as many are, you are in effect negating the efforts of those wanted us to make a change.

News night review is the only one, which has any kind of literary review. It’s the only one which had arts review. And even those are presented in a stale manner by a fat baldy and feminist butch wymyn we need to make reading and learning more fun, I can’t help but feel ashamed for those who are missing out on enlightenment because the next episode of Coronation Street is on... Maybe it has something to do with their occupation, when you've spent a whole day doing manual labour you don’t want to come home to some swine talking about the finer point of the renaissance period. But I am sure that weekend programming after 9pm can accommodate something along those lines. For the only programmes with a modicum of substance are splayed across the networks late at night, where no one can see them.

Yes it maybe the masses and lower classes entertaining themselves, but is this not digging themselves a nice grave to go into? Ignorance breeds pluralism and hatred, and media is doing nothing to appease it.

/CR
 
 
JohnnyYen
10:50 / 18.02.03
No, he's right. You're a fucking bigot. You've met a few people who you dissaprove of in tracksuits, so you think you're justified in slagging everyone who looks vaguely similair off as scum? THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF BEHAVING LIKE A BIGOT YOU DAFT CUNT. I've met some right arseholes of Asian descent, but if I started writing off the Asian population as worthless I think we'd all agree that I was a bigot.

The Sun's readership is less than a million.

Funny how groups of people with placards are "mobs" when they've got white trainers and drop their aitches, and "the general public Blair must listen to" when a few of them have A-levels.
 
 
illmatic
10:52 / 18.02.03
ivxx - I've got plenty of mates with "estuary" accents - got a bit of one myself in fact - who wear a bit of sportswear, and they'rer just as smart and funny, if not more so, than most of the people I went to University with, so much so that I'd say your "exceptions to the rule" are in fact the majority. I think you might well find the same thing if you ever bothered to talk to these people.

I think the idea you can judge intelligence by class attributes is a load of crap. I'd say if you get on with people from a certain demographic it's as much to do with shared experience than anything else, not inate intelligence. As to choice of newspaper = class indicator = stupidity/bitterness - Daily Mail, anyone?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:05 / 18.02.03
Hardly worth pointing out that The Salon is on Channel 4, is it?

O' course, this isn't about "class" per se, but rather wealth and education. The working class aren't coming in for a kicking as they are traditionally understood, but rather the poor. The average plumber, apparently, is earning a couple of times what I am earning, with my degree from Oxbridge Academy and my Virago Book of Love Poetry, and if that plumber happens to buy a couple of lottery tickets a week, then he's funding the Bridewell theatre, where I enjoyed a performance of "Anyone Can Whistle", Sondheim's lost musical, only a few weeks ago, copy of Poetry Review lodged happily in the pocket of my in-no-way-sporty greatcoat. Good for the plumbers of the world, say I.

The poor, on the other hand, seem to be getting it in the neck, on the grounds that they are stupid, violent, biddable, and encourage Ant and Dec. Well, absolutely. That sort of thing leads to hip hop, you know.
 
 
Smoothly
11:09 / 18.02.03
As was Big Brother.

There's such a fine line between stupid, and clever
 
 
.
11:19 / 18.02.03
Right, I've been called a "fucking bigot" and a "CUNT" and no-one can get my name right.

You've met a few people who you dissaprove of in tracksuits, so you think you're justified in slagging everyone who looks vaguely similair off as scum? JohnnyYen

No. Where'd you get that from? I'm not going on personal experience here. More to the point, I'm not really arguing about track-suited estuary-speakers. My earlier post to that effect was a bit of a mistake really, it was an attempt to narrow down the demographic refered to as "townies" in response to Sax's question. Obviously track-suited-ness or estuarianism are pretty arbitrary characteristics. It's a short-hand way of refering to a certain group of people which is as inaccurate as Illmatic suggests.

I've met some right arseholes of Asian descent, but if I started writing off the Asian population as worthless I think we'd all agree that I was a bigot. JohnnyYen

Now that's not a fair comparison. Race and class can't be chosen, but attitude can be. If you re-read my previous posts, you can see that I am against a group characterised by a certain attitude, ie. a group that you opt in to. If you chose to opt into a group by adopting that attitude, then you open yourself up to attack. It's still a prejudice, sure, but not a comparable one to rascism or classism.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:24 / 18.02.03
creation: I really don't see what relevance your last post, and the parts of your first post that it was expanding upon, have to this thread. Leaving aside the fact that you're giving moral status to your own aesthetic tastes, leaving aside the idea that 'high' culture might be as stultified and limited as its 'low' counterpart, leaving aside the fact that it's increasingly impossible to even pretend this high/low dichotomy exists - are you seriously suggesting that wealthy, 'educated' people don't participate in/consume popular culture?
 
 
Sax
11:30 / 18.02.03
No, they're out watching Shakespeare plays.

With the ghosts of the proles in Adidas skullcaps and Nike tunics, the sportswear of choice for the Elizabethan council twat.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:35 / 18.02.03
And speaking of relevancy...

259 [iivix], I'm completely confused now. You were initially arguing that "townie" had nothing to do with class, but referred to a certain 'demographic', the members of which could be identified by signifiers such as clothing and accent. Now you are saying that these are not in fact reliable signifiers. So... are you just here to tell us that you don't like people with bad attitudes, whoever they may be - in which case I retract the "bigot" comment, but what has your admirable dislike for bad people in general, whatever their class or subculture, got to do with this thread? Or is your point that the phrase "townie" not only has nothing to do with class, but also has nothing to do with the subculture you tried to identify earlier, and in fact is used mostly to refer to people with a bad attitude? Because I don't really buy that, and I think you may need to explain this a little further...
 
  

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