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Mark Millar from another perspective.

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The Natural Way

07:19 / 27.01.03

Middle America? He's scottish, don't ya know.

But, of course, you were probably just making a comparison.... I shush now. Gently. Slow.

yawn - thing's buddy

07:37 / 27.01.03

Although ‘Middle America’ was heavily populated by the ‘scots-irish’ (protestant Ulsterman descended from lowland scots) who historically have not been noted for tolerance.

Here’s the tar.

And I borrowed this brush.

And Runce – I love your new suit.

The Natural Way

09:46 / 27.01.03

So do I. The new one comes with a special brianbeard (tm).

12:22 / 27.01.03

BryanDude: That's my impression as well. But just because the hatred is institutionalized, or reflexive, doesn't mean we shouldn't call it what it is: hatred.

The Natural Way

12:38 / 27.01.03

Yeah, but it's still good to get it in context.

12:48 / 27.01.03

So all of this means what? We stop spending $2.25 US (or whatever your monetary equivalent) every 4 months for 'Ultimates'?

13:43 / 27.01.03

That's your call. I haven't been buying Millar's work lately, but that's got less to do with his dodgy personal views than with the fact that I've pretty much gone off superheroes.

Ungrateful Ninja

16:42 / 27.01.03

They're all people who have made the fact that they are very smart, knowledgeable, droll, and a bit esoteric part of their rock star mystique, which is perhaps a far better aesthetic for a comics creator to emulate than say, Bono or Fred Durst.

What about being a rockstar like Jimmy Page or Robert Plant? Fred Durst doesn't really seem like a good role model, nor does Bono. None of these people actually have that rockstar quality, they are all just famous in music. I would say that moby is the same; although he is famous for music, he is not at all 'rockstar'.

Mark Millar is a wee boy who became famous, and is aping those rock star happenings he thinks he remembers from his idols. Unfortunately, like most of us, he is not up to the task of really being 'Rock'.

17:11 / 27.01.03

A moment of threadrot: Bono doesn't have "that rockstar quality," he's just "famous in music"?

Come off it. Love him or loathe him, the guy is bigger than life: Bono = 100% rockstar, baby.

17:42 / 27.01.03

BryanDude: That's my impression as well. But just because the hatred is institutionalized, or reflexive, doesn't mean we shouldn't call it what it is: hatred.

But do juvenile comments a la Millar equal hatred?

17:49 / 27.01.03

Does a white guy automatically tensing up when a black guy gets on the elevator equal hatred?

17:52 / 27.01.03

And, let's face it, there's hatred and there's hatred.

There's the "I don't like gay people, so I'm going to use the word gay as an insult" level of hatred, which is based mostly in immaturity and self-doubt. Then there's a lot of more severe types of hatred, that I don't think I need to describe, since Millar is pretty clearly the former.

I think Millar himself would probably plead that he's using the provocative-for-the-sake-of-being-provocative hatred: "I called you guys cock-smoking faggot just because I wanted to get a rise out of you.... haha... You're so predictable," which I always find fairly irritating.

My advice to Millar: "Don't affect a big personality unless you actually have a big personality."

Oh, and "Hurry up with the next issue of Ultimates, eh? I'm jonsing here..."

18:45 / 27.01.03

Does a white guy automatically tensing up when a black guy gets on the elevator equal hatred?

No. Racism and hatred aren't the same thing. Hence two different dictionary entries.

18:54 / 27.01.03

One's not possible without the other: don't be obtuse.

19:38 / 27.01.03

One's not possible without the other: don't be obtuse.

Of course they're possible without each other. The racism of crossing the street when a black man is walking toward you doesn't equate to a hatred of black people. The juvenile joking of Millar's column doesn't equate to hating an entire segment of society (and frankly you have no idea what Millar really thinks of homosexuality).

19:56 / 27.01.03

Sorry, should've been clearer there: meant to say the former is not possible without the latter, ie., "The one (racism) is not possible without the other (hate)".

And I'm sure that some of Mark's best friends are homosexuals.

But you don't make "juvenile jokes" like that if you don't have a problem with homosexuality in the larger sense. I know people who have friends and colleagues of another race, for whom they have nothing but friendship and respect, and yet when in homogenous company they will still talk about "those people" with fear, anger, and bafflement.

Is this an alien experience to you?

Graeme McMillan

20:37 / 27.01.03

"I know people who have friends and colleagues of another race, for whom they have nothing but friendship and respect, and yet when in homogenous company they will still talk about "those people" with fear, anger, and bafflement."

I'm not so sure that racism/homophobia automatically equates hate as such, but I'd agree that they have the three elements you mention above. Does that necessarily mean the same as "hate", though?

(And to keep it vaguely on topic, I think that Mark's exhibited signs of fear of homosexuality, at the very least...)

20:41 / 27.01.03

If only the "real" universe worked on such a simple method of good/bad, hatred/non-hatred duality. I guess god made some serious errors when she created it. Maybe the next one will work OK. Is the warranty still valid?

21:08 / 27.01.03

But you don't make "juvenile jokes" like that if you don't have a problem with homosexuality in the larger sense

Really? So when my gay friend jokes about cock-smokers, his real problem is self-hatred and not just having a laugh with words? I've got a real problem with the lack of gray here.

21:52 / 27.01.03

Well that goes into the same territory of an African-American using the term "Nigga", doesn't it...

Getting Wayyyyyy of topic eh?

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:55 / 27.01.03

I've got a real problem with the threadrot. Lawrence's friends love to be called poofs. It's just one of those things. They also use "gay" to describe movies they don't like, sorbet they don't like and indeed people they don't like.

Since, to the best of my knowledge, Mark Millar is neither a friend of Lawrence's nor gay, I fail to see the relevance in the behaviour of Lawrence's gay friends. The question of whether you can use terms often seen as homophobic as insults without actually being homophobic is a perfectly valid one - the idea that Millar is doing that unsuccessful male-bonding thing that just makes him look like a bit of a twat pioneered by John major and extended by Alan Partridge seems more credible than that he is trying to commnciate his own hatred of homosexuals to an audience he is also encouraging to hate homosexuals. The fact that some fanboys may be stupid enough to take his ramblings as gospel I find far more disturbing than the fairly simple proposition that comic writers are probably not the people you go to in general for an informed or interesting approach to sexuality issues. Unless they are issues of Giant-Sized Man-Thing, of course.

Graeme McMillan

22:02 / 27.01.03

Duncan, y'wee clipe:

http://forums.millarworld.biz/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3974&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

(Scroll down to Duncan's post)

No good will come of this, I fear.

22:22 / 27.01.03

Lawrence's friends love to be called poofs. It's just one of those things. They also use "gay" to describe movies they don't like, sorbet they don't like and indeed people they don't like.

Cards on the table - I'm a poof. I use that language all the time, with my group of (mixed) friends. I've kept this out of discussions before, because it loads the deck. I don't think I get a free pass on language. You can over-intellectualize it all you want, but the fact of the matter is that none of you know Millar, so none of you have any idea whether he is "afraid" of us or "hates" us. It's so tiring listening to this nonsense. Maybe I'm just from some Grahame Norton school that somehow doesn't count, though.

And if you want to get into it, Haus, I take it you don't object to Jack saying you hate blacks because you cross the street when walking (or were you making that bit up before)?

22:35 / 27.01.03

Here's how to do proper html, Smile.

And here's my initial post, and there follows a response to you on page 3.

I really hate this thread. It summarises almost everything I don't like about Barbelith.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:36 / 27.01.03

I think you or I must be getting confused, Lawrence...did I say that I crossed the street when walking (by which I assume you mean when confronted by black people, rather than just in general, of which I am thoroughly guilty, and sometimes not even at the lights)? I have certainly discussed how being mugged by two young black men threw up certain feelings in me which had and have to be addressed, which you may be thinking of, but I'm not sure that I copped to crossing the street to avoid black people as a matter of policy, principle or pride. I live in South London, dude. I'd be roadkill. I'd like to think that my feelings about people of other races, sexualities, belief systems or whatever are not motivated by hatred, but by the same token I'd say that our cultures expose us to a lot of curious programming that may lead to irrational reactions to people based on what they are perceived as rather than who they are. Trying to overcome and/or confront that is, it seems to me, in general a good thing.

None of which changes the fact that I don't want to get into this, and I'm not quite sure why we have to rot the thread further here by sharing that. Mark Millar does not to my knowledge identify as gay, or black, or prone to crossing the street, or indeed as a friend of yours. Therefore, I see no good argument for you and Jack to continue down this primrose path, or indeed for me to get pulled along for the ride.

Duncan - dude, you have to have more faith in your own ability to present a counterargument. Mark Millar won't be there every time you cross the road...

23:02 / 27.01.03

Therefore, I see no good argument for you and Jack to continue down this primrose path, or indeed for me to get pulled along for the ride.

Read the first post in this thread. If you don't see how it opens to this subject, then I can't really help you. Anyway, I don't want to get into it either. Millar's the new Warren Ellis.

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:12 / 27.01.03

The first post in the thread was a quote from Mark Millar, followed by "am I the only one who gets embarrassed for Mark every time he writes like this? It sounds like your dad trying to be edgy and cool by swearing". It makes no mention of racism, nor of the dreadful importance of another thread in which the PC Brigade and the last brave defenders of Political Incorrectness whack lumps out of each other while rotting the thread completely. These rambling, repetitive disputes are threadrot, and thanks to the tiny number of moderators in this forum will eventually strangle the thread. I see no good argument for any of it, really, except perhaps the belief by certain Barbeloids that they are not only far more interesting topics of discussion than whatever the topic abstract may suggest, but they are also uniquely well-qualified to talk at length about the urgently compelling topic of themselves. Dullsville, really.

Duncan may be mithering again, but at least he's mithering in a vaguely ontopic way. I was more interested personally in "what is Mark Millar trying to communicate with this editorial style and is he succeeding" than "which Barbeloid is the most racist/politically correct/right right right right right all along?" But then, I'm funny that way.

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:32 / 27.01.03

Right. Deep breath. We....all....love...each....other.

I'm interested in Mark Millar as the new Warren Ellis. Some of the comparisons are of course obvious - currently hot, as Ellis was a year or two ago, and master of an Interwebnet message board, writing a flagship title (Marvel's Ultimates, which occupies a position perhaps not dissimilar to Wildstorm's Authority) for one of the major comics producers but not willing to surrender his edgy, adult image. One very good way to do this, it strikes me, is to do, in fact, what Ellis did. That is, develop a non-editorialised forum, or fora (the WEF and his articles/columns) in which he can develop an unmediated voice.

Except that at the same time the columns and the forum are adverts for the comics, which presumably contribute the lion's share of his income, if that is relevant, and are also what he is generally known for (was Ellis? He seemed to have a far stronger following based on his columns first and comics after, but perhaps it seemed that way to me because I was younger), and as such they have to tie into a cohesive Mark Millar offering, if you like. Move too far from the other bases, and nobody will play ball anymore.

so, the personality in the columns is presumably mediated to produce the impression of freedom without necessarily being the unlarded voice of Millar, if such a thing there be. What, then, is he setting out to achieve by this, and how successful is he being? I can see Ethan van S's idea that he is creating a vision of comic book creator as aspirant lifestyle avatar, but *why*? Does he feel a duty to give his fans something to admire and aspire to, and if the saw about the only people who read comics anymore being peopel who want to write comics, isn't the fact that he is writing Captain America enough for that anyway? Or is there another motive here?

Graeme McMillan

23:32 / 27.01.03

"Duncan - dude, you have to have more faith in your own ability to present a counterargument. Mark Millar won't be there every time you cross the road..."

Maybe he will. Maybe he's like the Green Cross Code Man.

23:35 / 27.01.03

Point taken: you're right, this well-intentioned but ill-informed digression is threatening to overwhelm the thread. I started off just trying to answer Ethan's innocent question, and somehow ended up on my high horsie again...

I would've been happy to leave it at calling Mark dim, honestly.

23:40 / 27.01.03

And dwarfish.

Graeme McMillan

23:41 / 27.01.03

The "Mark Millar is the new Warren Ellis" idea rings bells in my head, Haus. Except I think that Warren was trying to build up a fanbase and different audience for (his) comics, whereas Mark is trying to be The New Warren Ellis - that is, Warren had his own reasons for the WEF/Come In Alone/Artbomb etc, but Mark doesn't, beyond seeing that it worked for Warren. I mean, Come In Alone was *about* something, for the most part, but what's Mark's column really doing, apart from being throwaway fluff every week (well, whenever it appears)?

And now I'm really playing into Duncan's characterisation of me as having "something of a fascination with doing Millar down". Ah, well.

Graeme McMillan

23:43 / 27.01.03

"Here's how to do proper html, Smile."

Ah, see, I didn't KNOW it was all html here, Dunc. I even asked earlier, and no-one answered lil ol' me...

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:53 / 27.01.03

But in what sense do we define "working"? At the bottom line, as the creator of a product, Millar is looking, presumably, for ways in which to increase the likelihood of that product being bought. One way to do that is presumably to get his name in as many people's heads as possible, hopefully in a way that makes them want to know more/buy his comics/spread good report of him by word-of-mouth.

In a sense, the column can be seen as a way to change comics, as Ellis' was presented, as it aims to make Mark Millar's comics more popular and ultimately probably to make more people write like Mark Millar...

Graeme McMillan

00:02 / 28.01.03

"Millar is looking, presumably, for ways in which to increase the likelihood of that product being bought. One way to do that is presumably to get his name in as many people's heads as possible, hopefully in a way that makes them want to know more/buy his comics/spread good report of him by word-of-mouth."

But does his public persona help this or not, considering I'm not alone (he says, surprised but happy) in thinking that Mark's not doing himself any favours with the way he writes himself? Speaking for myself, it puts me off his work - but then, I'm really not his target audience. I'd be interested in hearing what fans of Mark's work think about this - if they agree that he's trying too hard to be "rock" and coming off more as "cock", do they buy his work despite him? Does it even matter?

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