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Mark Millar from another perspective.

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Graeme McMillan

12:51 / 24.01.03

From Mark Millar's latest Column at comicbookresources.com:

"Of course, as generous as I sound like I'm being here to those cock-smoking faggots who never actually manage to get what we really want down on that page and take much to long to do it, I have my complaints too. I mean, as much as I'm complaining about the pay structure on their behalf, I wouldn't give up one pico-cent of my royalties to these fuckers for an instant so let's get that cleared up right away."

Am I the only one who gets embarrassed for Mark every time he writes like this? It sounds like your dad trying to be edgy and cool by swearing.

(Not to mention that his "Image was cool until the writers came on, and then the industry collapsed" theory is rather fucked...)

Our Lady of The Two Towers

13:44 / 24.01.03

Yeah, it's a bit like Grant's oh-so-cool jokes about raping babies...

Mister Six, whom all the girls

13:46 / 24.01.03

I thought they were little foreign boys.

Yeah... it must be tough to be so cool.

14:14 / 24.01.03

Link here: 'SMILIN STAN OR JOLLY JACK?'

Ugh. How does this present Millar from 'another perspective'? Aside from the fact that he appears to enjoy using words like 'cock-smoking faggots' and 'Hershey Highway'. It's hard for me to listen to a person that talks like this.

14:17 / 24.01.03

MARK MILLAR IN NOT-ALL-THAT-BRIGHT-REALLY SHOCKER!
"Like many physically-weak white guys, I'm terrified of anal rape to the point of obsession," sob stunted carrot-top, standing on tea-chest to be seen

Graeme McMillan

14:53 / 24.01.03

"Ugh. How does this present Millar from 'another perspective'? Aside from the fact that he appears to enjoy using words like 'cock-smoking faggots' and 'Hershey Highway'. It's hard for me to listen to a person that talks like this."

By "another perspective", I was meaning not discussing his comics work - which has been done to death here - but examining the persona he puts out on his messageboard, in interviews and in his not-very-weekly column. A persona that Jack has kind of put his finger on, to be honest.

I have problems with Mark's matey "I'm just one of the blokes" persona, if only because it seems so affected, unnatural and desperate to be seen as cool, and I was wondering if I was the only one.

'Sthat simple.

Graeme McMillan

14:55 / 24.01.03

Oh yeah, and I was also wondering if I was being too uptight in being slightly disturbed by the casual homophobia of the persona, too... Not that Mark would ever admit to being homophobic, because - hey! - He wrote The Authority, didn't he? Not to mention making Colossus gay!

So, yeah. Discuss away, please.

15:09 / 24.01.03

There's not that many people will admit to being homophobic, though. Or racist.

(Like the topic abstract, though.)

Mister Six, whom all the girls

15:13 / 24.01.03

I just congratulated him on his forum for his new comedic character the 'Oh poor writer, me.'

If he wants to be one of the lads, he should be prepared for piss-taking, yeah?

Still, a friend of mine... well, not really I don't like her too much, spent a night smoking cigs and chatting about the proposed series of Marvel books based on Ultimate X-Men.... nuff said there... But she said he was nice enough.

And I got a copy of the Ultmate X-Men #1 script out of the deal.

Still... I don't like his column a lot of the time because he tries so hard to be cool and liked.

Matthew Fluxington

15:26 / 24.01.03

The truth is that a good writer can be completely fucked up the Hershey Highway by an artist who doesn't know what he's doing. I've had pages come back to me where even I don't know what's going on, characters speaking at length from off-panel and sometimes main figures drawn so badly that I've honestly been unsure not only WHO the fuck they are in my story, but also what SEX they are.

Well, that's what you get for working with Rob Liefeld and the Kubert brothers, Mark...

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:45 / 24.01.03

Well, you know, there are no professional qualifications involved in writing comics, so it's a bit unfair to expect comics writers to be very clever, or very self-aware, or actually very not a cock, for that matter. This man watched a lot of episodes of Dr. Who as a child, and he did it for *us*. I think we should all stop expecting so much.

Besides, as was mentioned earlier on, Grant Morrison makes moronic statements, so it's hardly surprising that Millar does as well, only a year later and with a better-known artist.

Did he really make Colossus gay? Not, presumably, by sexing him up sooooo sweetly?

Ethan Van Sciver

15:49 / 24.01.03

This one was a little over the top. The really foul language made me a little uncomfortable too. But I think Millar and to a lesser extent Morrison are both interested in putting across the 'rich jet setter pop star' image of comic pros, which always makes me a little sad. I couldn't read the last column about the homes of the top 1% of comic pros, and how beautiful they were. All of my friends in the business are doing okay, but none of us have lifestyles we wish to boast about.

I think MM is doing a service to the industry, perhaps, by putting across this illusion of glamor, but I'm not quite sure.

Graeme McMillan

16:12 / 24.01.03

"There's not that many people will admit to being homophobic, though. Or racist."

I can't help but wonder why you added the "racist" bit in there.

21:53 / 24.01.03

What? Because not many people will admit to either; it's not spectacularly relevant, but both terms are ones that we use to accuse, and very rarely are they self-conferred.

Do you really think Mark's a homophobe? Anyone?

Ethan Van Sciver

22:10 / 24.01.03

Is it 'homophobic' to make fun of gays?

Matthew Fluxington

22:36 / 24.01.03

I can't possibly begin to understand why the language Millar was using in that column would be 'glamorous', and I can only see it as 'rock star behavior' if rock stardom is entirely defined by someone like Fred Durst. It seems to me that Millar is actually trying to sound like Jay from the Kevin Smith movies, but without any of the irony that character was written with.

I think Millar's affecting a persona, but I think he's making a huge mistake that will dog him the rest of his career. All of his behavior lately has been ridiculous, and he better watch out before he burns all of his bridges and ends up becoming the Scottish Rob Liefeld.

23:18 / 24.01.03

Is it 'homophobic' to make fun of gays?

No, making fun of gays simply for being gay moves beyond the realm of fear, straight into the realm of hate.

But is that what Millar's doing here? How many of the artists he's worked with have actually been gay men? Seems to me what he's doing is insulting straight men by saying they are like gay men—with the unspoken premise that being gay is a bad thing, and that any straight man should fear being thought of as gay.

And, let's face it, all the references to anal rape that crop up in Mark's work (and in Garth Ennis's) are a pretty clear indicator that the author has got, um, issues.

Graeme McMillan

23:33 / 24.01.03

Jack: You've said exactly what I was thinking, and would've said, if I wasn't on the bus home from work at the time.

Duncan: I'll agree that my use of the word "admit" earlier was clumsy; obviously most people wouldn't "admit" that they're homophobic. I was trying to get at the point that, if accused of being homophobic, I'd not be surprised to see Mark pointing at his gay characters as if they somehow disabled any such criticisms by their very existence (of course, this is a man who characterised the success of The Authority once as "there was nothing funnier than seeing a Superman clone get fucked up the ass in Authority," so who knows?)

Graeme McMillan

23:56 / 24.01.03

Ethan: "I think Millar and to a lesser extent Morrison are both interested in putting across the 'rich jet setter pop star' image of comic pros, which always makes me a little sad. I couldn't read the last column about the homes of the top 1% of comic pros, and how beautiful they were. All of my friends in the business are doing okay, but none of us have lifestyles we wish to boast about."

Mark's attempts to portray comic pros as glamorous always come across as being slightly awkward, as if he's - again - trying to be one of the cool kids, and not feel geeky about his chosen career. The Homes and Gardens edition of his column was just surreal, as if he was jumping up and down and going "Look! I know people with nice houses and everything!" over and over again.

Flux: "I think Millar's affecting a persona, but I think he's making a huge mistake that will dog him the rest of his career. All of his behavior lately has been ridiculous, and he better watch out before he burns all of his bridges and ends up becoming the Scottish Rob Liefeld."

I thought his "I don't slag off DC anymore"-style comments in the interview Rich Johnson did with him recently were rather interesting, as if he'd suddenly realised that his success with Marvel wasn't going to last forever and he may at some point want to work with the other big company some day. It's the first time in a long time that I didn't think that he's completely bought into his own hype and disappeared up his own arse, to be honest.

Ethan Van Sciver

02:28 / 25.01.03

Flux says:

At 01:36 25.01.2003:

I can't possibly begin to understand why the language Millar was using in that column would be 'glamorous', and I can only see it as 'rock star behavior' if rock stardom is entirely defined by someone like Fred Durst. It seems to me that Millar is actually trying to sound like Jay from the Kevin Smith movies, but without any of the irony that character was written with.

I wasn't calling his language 'glamorous', I was referring to all this, "I flew in to NYC to have a late dinner with Bendis and Quesada and the Q mansion, and drank until I was barely able to hop on another plane back to Scotland to hang out with Frank Quitely at his magnificent blah blah.." And the column about pricey homes of the people who worked during the comics boom. It's propaganda designed to make fans believe professionals are as rock stars, and it makes me uneasy, only because no one I know is really like that. Frank Quitely doesn't seem to be either.

The miserable language he's using lately could be a result of some new friends (I suspect a couple in particular) or just plain overwork. Mark is capable of writing some of the very best superhero comics, and he's also committed to writing things like these columns, which have to seem increasingly less important to him.

Ethan Van Sciver

02:36 / 25.01.03

At 02:18 25.01.2003:

Is it 'homophobic' to make fun of gays?

No, making fun of gays simply for being gay moves beyond the realm of fear, straight into the realm of hate.

But is that what Millar's doing here? How many of the artists he's worked with have actually been gay men? Seems to me what he's doing is insulting straight men by saying they are like gay men—with the unspoken premise that being gay is a bad thing, and that any straight man should fear being thought of as gay.

And, let's face it, all the references to anal rape that crop up in Mark's work (and in Garth Ennis's) are a pretty clear indicator that the author has got, um, issues.

This is why the new Rawhide Kid series that Marvel is promoting seems so insidious to me. CLEARLY it's meant to mock homosexuality, with the cover images I've seen alone. And so according to you, Jack Fear, Marvel Comics is promoting hatred of gays in a way that simplifies them and represents them with phallic symbols. If a homosexual creative team was given the task of writing a gay western, I wonder if the approach they might take would be something Marvel might want to publish and promote, instead of this transparent con that is being perpetrated instead.

02:49 / 25.01.03

I'm in full agreement with you on RAWHIDE KID, Ethan—I mean, consider who's writing it: Ron Zimmerman, who used to write for Howard Stern, so beloved the dim, crude, overgrown frat-boy mouth-breather demographic... who happen to think that fag jokes are the height of wit.

I'm just disappointed that Mark, who has always talked a good game regarding social consciousness and political themes—and who wrote some subtle, thoughtful stories early in his career—should be pandering to that audience.

(See how I brought that rant back on-topic? Pretty slick, eh?)

Ethan Van Sciver

03:06 / 25.01.03

Jack:

And to tie both topics together, according to his own remarks on Millarworld, Mark looooved the Rawhide Kid series, having read preview copies given to him in New York.

--

12:01 / 25.01.03

I can't quite say I know much about Miller or am familiar with his work, but some of the stuff I've seen him say on-line (this thread being a good example) I plan on giving him a wide berth...

Rawhide Kid, ah yes, that's coming out next month right? I can't really comment on that. Personally if I was doing a comic book with a gay lead I'd avoid westerns as that genre leaves me cold, but if it has to be westerns I'd probably look to "The Place of Dead Roads" by William S. Burroughs for inspiration.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

12:42 / 25.01.03

I don't currently believe that Millar is homophobic and I don't believe Morrison does rape teenage girls for kicks or whatever it was he said last year, but it's this dated Loaded persona they both put out on their websites (I'm assuming this on Millar's part, haven't actually visited it more than once, soon after is started up). Why do they give off this image of being stuck in 1994, when interviews and their work says differently?

Matthew Fluxington

13:31 / 25.01.03

I think it has to do with both Mark and Grant having a very poor idea of what a "comic book rock star" is or should be. I wish they had better role models for that sort of thing - I think that if they were to pick 'rock stars' to emulate, they'd be better served by imitating Stephen Malkmus, Thurston Moore, or even Moby rather than the Maxim types. When they put on this 'DOOD' persona, it seems so completely at odds with their writing, and comes off as very phoney. It makes them look insecure and desperate. Mark Millar really seems to be pandering in particular, I think Grant does behave well most of the time.

Graeme McMillan

15:31 / 25.01.03

Complete thread rot:

Has anyone else heard the "Marvel is embarrassed/scared shitless that The Rawhide Kid has recieved mainstream publicity" rumour? Scuttlebutt has it that the series *was* originally intended as a run of politically incorrect homophobic jokes - the covers certainly point that way - and has been the subject of major rewrites since CNN and others picked up the story...

On topic:

MITOTF: "Why do they give off this image of being stuck in 1994, when interviews and their work says differently?"

I don't think Millar's interviews or (Authority and afterwards) work DOES say differently... There's nothing that he's written since 2000 that really steps outside of the Lad mentallity, is there (Thinking here in particular about the fact that all the female characters in The Authority were bisexual and seemingly "gagging for it", the horny Hulk, the repeated sexual violence themes, the action movie-worship, the portrayal of gay men, the general shallowness of the writing overall...)?

Flux: "When they put on this 'DOOD' persona, it seems so completely at odds with their writing, and comes off as very phoney. It makes them look insecure and desperate. Mark Millar really seems to be pandering in particular, I think Grant does behave well most of the time."

I think one of the reasons I have less problems with Grant's Pop Star persona is that it's clearly another pose, there's an over-the-topness about it that winks at the reader and makes the joke obvious. Whereas Mark seems to want to appear genuine, and never lets the mask slip.

18:07 / 25.01.03

Stephen Malkmus, Thurston Moore, or even Moby

they arent very 'rockstar' rockstars though, are they?

--

19:56 / 25.01.03

can anyone link me to those covers, I'm interested in seeing them...

when I first heard Marvel was going to have a gay lead character, I didn't get my hopes up (which apparently was smart). I was hoping it would be a superhero comic book or something, about a superhero who just happens to be gay. Then I find out it's a western and that Howard Stern writer guy... ugh.

I guess I'd say I'd have more faith in the project if there were a few gay people involved, but most of the people involved in this project appear to be straight. Not that straight people can't write gay characters, I'm just a little miffed that the first gay lead in comics is being written by a writer from the Howard Stern show.

The Natural Way

20:36 / 25.01.03

I agree with Lada Millar isn't necessarily a homophobe, but he is a bit of a fucking prat sometimes. And those Jay and Silent Bob loving sycophants over on his message boards can't really help matters....

"Hyuck, yeah Mark....those cock-smoking faggots...hyuk.."

Graeme McMillan

21:50 / 25.01.03

"can anyone link me to those covers, I'm interested in seeing them..."

Ah, if only I knew how to link here. Is it HTML or UBB, or something entirely different?

Anyway:
Issue 1
http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0203/rawhide_1.jpg
(from the original: http://devilpig.com/images/illus/rawhidefinal.jpg)
Issue 2
http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0303/rawhide_2.jpg (because that phallic gun joke may not have been that obvious the first time)
Issue 3
http://www.terrydodson.com/images/gallery/RAWCover.jpg

--

22:02 / 25.01.03

I know you're not supposed to judge a book by it's cover, but that looks like crap.

At the very least they could have dressed him in cooler looking duds. That blue outfit has got to go.

I don't think I'm interested in reading this at all. I'm sure someone on this board will buy it anyway and sum it up for the rest of us, saving me the trouble.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

15:41 / 26.01.03

Yeesh, those covers were ugly. Beautifully drawn, but still ugly.

toksik Stephen Malkmus, Thurston Moore, or even Moby

they arent very 'rockstar' rockstars though, are they?

I believe that's why Flux chose them, and put inverted comma's around 'rock star'.

Matthew Fluxington

17:25 / 26.01.03

Right. They're all people who have made the fact that they are very smart, knowledgeable, droll, and a bit esoteric part of their rock star mystique, which is perhaps a far better aesthetic for a comics creator to emulate than say, Bono or Fred Durst.

It's a bit easier to be like Malkmus, Sonic Youth, or Beck on a comic creator's budget too, I'd say.

05:03 / 27.01.03

Hi, I'm relatively new to the board and am now trying to remove myself fromthe status of lurker/troller extrordinaire. As with that-

Personnally, I don't consider Mark Miller to be an out and out homophobe with a personal hatred of all things homosexual and anti-manly (whatever the hell that means). I think his personality and writing style are more akin to that of a pair or sixteen year old boys playing video games in their family room, getting into a fight afterward and calling each other "fudge-packer" and "ass-fucker". His bigotry is pretty much like the bigotry of most of middle america, institutionalized and non self aware. he automatically assumes that he did nothing wrong because he wasn't intentionally trying to be anti-anything. I don't speak for him nor do i make apologies for his idiotic and clearly insensitive comments. But i figured i'd toss in my 2 cents anyways. As for his supposed "lifestyles of the rich and famous" propaganda, yeah, getting a big house paid for by those Ultimate X-Men royalties must have gone to his pointy little head.
Grant Morrison on the other hand as stated in in several interviews and in the Invisibles guide that pretty much everthing is a pose and that you should just have fun with it.

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