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Mark Millar from another perspective.

  
  

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Char Aina
21:39 / 31.01.03
and then, of course, what would life and posting be without haus' comments. some of the highlights:

You don't like political correctness. You're not sure why, but you have a vague feeling that Political Correctness wants to stifle your freedom of speech.

Nobody is trying to *censor* Mark Millar,


well, i didnt think you were trying to censor him.


only to suggest that the way he expresses himself is a bit dim. Yo, on the other hand, don't seem to be able to cope with people disagreeing with you, or behaving in a way you don't approve of. So you feel entitled to shout insults at them.

well, i feel entitled to speak my mind, i dont know about the shouting or the insulting, but i would agree that yes, in principle, i will say whatever to whomever i please. (unless i feel i might get a kicking, but then thats just common sense.)


which is lucky because you don't really have another way to disagree.

based on your limited knowledge? my god, but you must be a veritable man mountain of perspicacity and understanding. i was under the impression i had posted less than two hundred times, and that most of those posts had been only a few words each... but if you say you have analysed my rhetoric and come to that conclusion, even based on such skewed and limited data, well then, boy howdy! you must be right!



You've never actually quite worked out what the tenets of "Political Correctness" are. But you know that they are bad.

bullshit. i said finding their political correctness wanting. that means that you find their level of political correctness to be lower than desirable. this is not the same as saying they are not as good a catholic as you, more like sayoing they have darker hair, or slower reactions. its not something with 'tenets'. at least, not when i said it.


You've never met anyone who subscribes to the ideology of Political Correctness, or who has described themselves as Politically Correct.


well, no, but then i never met anyone who said that they were a fascist, or a racist, but i have met several that would fall under that category.



In fact, they only context you have ever encountered the term in everyday usage was when somebody in the pub makes a joke about Pakistanis or Homosexuals, then smirks a little and says "oooh, that wasn't very politically correct, was it? Watch out, the PC police are about". You've never actually seen the PC Police, but you know that they are all over the place.


i have never heard of or spoken of this force. are they muynicipal or metropolitan?
(and the person in the pub not laughing at most of those jokes would be me. i mean, do you really think i find race funny? just as is? without any context or comic buildup? )
PC is not really an institution to me as you seem to think it is.


You haven't read anything about Political Correctness, because you already know about it. Sometimes, this makes you sound silly, for example when you talk about White Anglo-Saxon Heterosexual guilt, because you have heard the phrase White Anglo-Saxon Protestant

aye...and is it possible that i have heard that term, but wanting to adapt it to the situation in hand(ie marks allegedly homophobic and racist comments) changed the words. i guess if used capitals it might have been less simple for you to misconstrue my words. because i would not have used any

and using more words makes you look more intelligent, and harder to disagree with.

well, you certainly seem to think so.

Sometimes people seem to be laughing at you, and you don't know why. This makes you angry, because you are clearly cleverer than they are, and they just recite what they read in their Politically Correct books. You're not quite sure what constitutes a Politically Correct book, but you certainly know what people who read them sound like.


wow. you really have me down. i should just go the fuck home, because you see through me like i see through air. i think i am less clever than you haus, and i think you are also educated to a higher standard than i was. university? a postgrad or two, perhaps?
is that when you read all these books? the ones i have never thought of reading, and upon which i have certainly based my whole approach to life?
honestly, it doesnt bother me. well, except when it appears that you think others should be able to match your level of discursive skill. then it gets a bit annoying, in the same way that my friend telling me i am too shit to play tony hawk four with him and his other mate does.


Now, since you are all clever and everything, and since we mean so little to you, I'm sure you can engage in this in a way that doesn't involve trying to shout people down. Shouting people down doesn't work on the Internet. There are techniques that resemble it, but they will just, over time, get you first ignored and finally banned.

is that supposed to be a threat, or were you just not really being careful at this point in your post?
are you saying that you will try to get me banned, or even perhaps ban me(i know not the limit of your powers/ire)?

perhaps you have failed to realise that i am responding in (as close as i can be arsed to) kind when i say "you patronising cunt". please stop digging, i dont like it. if you dig, even subtly, or cleverly, i will call you names. and you seem to be troubled by that. are you really unaware that that attitude is annoying?


So, please defeat these shadowy hordes of Political correctness Gone Mad with something resembling a coherent argument, or just leave it. You could begin by explaining in what sense exactly Condoleeza Rice is "in Scotland".

wow. well, see last answer. part b.

as i know you will just love telling me how i am wrong, which of course, i in character will hate, not be able to deal with, and also fly right of the handle at.
perhaps you could begin by telling me when did i bring up condoleeza?






and truly, this could sum up why i would call you a snob, and why i think you are an ass:

You haven't read anything about...

seems like your answer to an awful lot, whether written or implied.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:46 / 31.01.03
are you saying that you will try to get me banned, or even perhaps ban me(i know not the limit of your powers/ire)?

If you troll the board, you probably will be, but it has nowt to do with me. As I say, the only person here demanding that other people shut up is you. I'd just like you to be abit more civil.

To answer your question. Millar talks specifically about Condoleeza Rice having sexual novelty value (and I really never thought I'd have to write those words in that order). That has nothing to do with how many black people there are in Scotland, because Condoleeza Rice, at last count, was not in Scotland. Unless the forces of democracy have scattered to face the threat of international terror alone. I think you're conflating two points....
 
 
Ganesh
21:47 / 31.01.03
What is "political correctness" anyway?
 
 
Char Aina
21:51 / 31.01.03
To answer your question. Millar talks specifically about Condoleeza Rice having sexual novelty value (and I really never thought I'd have to write those words in that order). That has nothing to do with how many black people there are in Scotland, because Condoleeza Rice, at last count, was not in Scotland.

yeah, but that wasnt really the point was it? he was talking hypothetically, it seemed to me.

and what does conflate mean?
 
 
Char Aina
21:55 / 31.01.03
If you troll the board

i will assume that 'if' means that you dont think i am trolling.
which makes me think you were trying to scare me into being nicer.

and by the way, i dont find you to be the foremost bastion of civility. on the contrary, i find you boorish and as i mentioned, a snob. a little 'practise what you preach' would be nice, or even perhaps just giving me the feeling that you were aware that you come across this way. obviously i dont mean always, just when you kick it up a notch to educate someone.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:38 / 31.01.03
Just when I thought that everyone could be friends. When even Laurence and Haus have become bosom buddies, I thought world peace was a sure thing.

It should probably be made clear that Haus no power to ban you, toksik. Nor any power to intimidate you with. And any perceived threats are without substance. This probably seems clear to old hands here, but its probably worth saying to our newer members.

Is a good round of PMing in order?
 
 
Char Aina
22:45 / 31.01.03
a round of PMing?
on what topic and to what end?
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:51 / 31.01.03
To cool tempers and try to get everyone to calm down. People fight all the time, and it is perfectly natural. But it can sometimes help if others get involved behind the scenes.
 
 
Ganesh
22:54 / 31.01.03
Mmm. A little PM discussion can be useful in sorting out poster differences and antagonisms by removing the 'grandstanding' element. Give it a go, hmm?
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
23:00 / 31.01.03
toksik: there's no point. Not saying I agree with everything you've posted here, or disagree, for that matter. I'm not getting involved - call it cowardice, call it self-preservation, call it (if you're being completely accurate) total fucking boredom. But there's no point in dissecting Haus' innumerable taunts in this thread, because you're feeding the frenzy, duuuude. Love Haus though I do, he's sometimes incapable of avoiding stirring the waters, and having the last word. He tries... and he's been really good at it lately. But just as I can't help being patronising, Haus can't help rising to people rising. Hell, it's probably really good for the soul, to be honest, in which case, as I rather like his soul, more power to him.

You're unlikely to be able to match his level of wit when it comes to the put-down, on the evidence of this thread. Best leave it. At some point, he will probably, in passing, refer to this 'conversation' with you in another thread. He's only human, and (god help him) he's really good at this kind of delicate flogging. Don't rise to that either, or the Happy Hydra Of Threadrot will be reborn again.

Haus: dude, stop shooting at his feet, and maybe he'll stop dancing. Just a thought.
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:21 / 31.01.03
At some point, he will probably, in passing, refer to this 'conversation' with you in another thread - JtB

Too late.

And that really is a bad habit of yours, Haus. Think "Fluffy Haus", like the rest of us do.
 
 
Char Aina
00:05 / 01.02.03
he cant help it, hes naturally snide. but dont let him hear you abuse him with any of your NastinessTM, or he will brand you not only illiterate, but also offensive and aggressive. which is a trait he abhors in anyone, obviously.
 
 
Ganesh
00:19 / 01.02.03
... and that's exactly the sort of statement which is rather more usefully directed toward the individual concerned via Private Message, where such antipathies can be played out without the inevitable escalation/'grandstanding' which ensues from posting publicly.
 
 
Char Aina
00:25 / 01.02.03
which i intend to do.

thank you for sharing ganesh, but i also feel that to a certain extent haus is a bully.
to that end i want to make sure everyone sees what i feel, and can then approach advisedly.
 
 
Ganesh
00:28 / 01.02.03
Fine; I'll leave you to it. Just remember people did attempt to advise you...
 
 
Badbh Catha
04:18 / 01.02.03
in what way is that school yard?

The remainder of the thread makes it painfully obvious, doesn't it? How very depressing indeed this all has turned out to be.

Far be it from me to suggest, despite all this suggestive talk of "Happy Hydra Of Threadrot," "bad habits", and whatnot, that other posters aren't actually taking your side in this matter. It might be too much to actually consider that, perhaps, your arrogant, juvenile, deeply insecure and willfully ignorant manner is boring others to the extent that we'd rather you PM Haus so he can delete your PMs and that will be the end of that. Nobody really gives a fuck what you think of him.

I suppose we could ignore you. We can hide our heads in the sand and pretend your incessant shitting on posters who disagree with you isn't a problem. But that sets a bad precedent, you see; If you're allowed to rot threads by abusing other posters, then other folks feel they can do the same to those who disagree with them, and on and on, ad nauseaum, and the board suffers as people get turned off and leave.

You may consider my comments rather nasty, toksik – on the contrary. I'm being honest with you. Cut the personal vendetta crap – it's tedious and does you no fucking favors.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:34 / 01.02.03
Just for the record, I never intended to threaten Toxie, since, as anyone who read the friggin' FAQ would know, moderators have no power to ban, nor any mandate. Likewise, I had no power to delete Toksik's posts in the Comics thread, when he requested I do so. I moderate the Head Shop, the Gathering and the Creation. Anything else is not my bailiwick. I was indeed saying that you were not trolling, Toksik, but I have been on the board a while now, and I've seen the decay curve from shouty, abusive and threatening to being generally ignored to board-spamming and shouting a fair few times now.

It's generally best if we can avoid that. Hence the warning, in which no threat was meant. And, as we've seen so far in the Lustral thread in the Laboratory, the "Pejorative use of 'gay'" thread in the Head Shop and now this thread here, whenever you feel you are being criticised, you lose it and get abusive. Nobody is entitled to have their opinions accepted uncritically and with unceasing approbation. By losing it when yours are not, you join a camp including the Greenland Posse, Knodge, innercircle, Old Uncle Tom Cobbley and all. And, until you get the hang of being disagreed with without becoming abusive and threatening, you are just inciting threadrot and, as the Babdh says, also boredom. This isn't an "anti-non-intellectual" stance, more an "anti-non-interesting" one.
 
 
Jack Fear
11:57 / 01.02.03
More succinctly:

Freedom of speech also includes my freedom to say I think Mark Millar comes off as a blithering chowderhead.

Which I've done twice, now.

End of story. Freedom of speech in full effect.
 
 
Char Aina
12:31 / 01.02.03
you lose it


i had nothing to lose.

taking your side

i don't really care. as i have told some people, i am not out for approval, just making sure i am heard.


fucking hell, though.
swear at a few sensitive souls and they think you are going mental.
i am sorry if you all feel so bored.
telling people to go fuck themselves obviously not as entertaining for you as it is for me, and obvioulsy far more offensive. ah well.
i now see that i must also be witty and smart in my personal jibes, lest people think i am a wanker.

to be honest, fuck a bunch of that. although i will attempt to be witty when i can, i will still find swearing funny, and i will still swear. if you wont let that be, i will only up the volume on the expletives per minute. not because i am trying to make you angry, but because i am trying to make you a little less sensitive to a few letters grouped provocatively.

but then i am sure someone wrote a book on that, and had i read it i would know that i am doing it all wrong. please, PM me with your thoughts and 'helpful hints' so as not to blight the precious bandwidth for the sake of educating this cunt.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:21 / 01.02.03
No need to spit your dummy out.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:04 / 01.02.03
So when people emphasise how they aren't attacking you but are bored with the entire topic your response is to go on about how everyone is being mean to you and threaten to up your noise-to-signal ratio? What do you want toksig? Every time someone expresses an opinion that goes counter to what you believe you seem to think that means that your view isn't tolerated. You mistake criticism for censorship.

I would have thought the fact that you haven't been kicked off Barbelith should have been a clue to the fact that a tar-and-feather campaign has not been started against you.
 
 
Char Aina
01:24 / 03.02.03
So when people emphasise how they aren't attacking you but are bored with the entire topic your response is to go on about how everyone is being mean to you and threaten to up your noise-to-signal ratio?

well, no.
i am stating that if you are easily offended, asking me to tone my language down is not a good way to avoid swearing. i like swearing, and am fairly sure that it is, although possibly not the most elegant use of my freedom of speech, still protected by that ideal.

and mentioning free speech does not mean i think you are in any way restricting mine, i am explaining why i am not afraid that you will.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:11 / 03.02.03
From my PM:

For example, in the "Mark Millar" thread, you now seem to believe that you are being asked not to swear so much, which I don't think anyone has complained about. They have observed that you can't cope with being disagreed with, and that you don't have the chops to respond to disagreement in a grown-up way, but that's not an objection to your swearing. It's an objection to your apparent inability to do anything else. If you want the benefit of the doubt, try acting like you have any interest in other people's ideas. Seriously. It's working so far in the de-individuation thread, isn't it? Nobody's called you a cock, anyway...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
09:42 / 03.02.03
< sigh > Posting PMs?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:46 / 03.02.03
I think it's OK to post your own PMs, when they're relevant. Posting other people's PMs more awkward. D'you see?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:20 / 03.02.03
Yeah, I suppose. I just feel a little squeemish about posting PMs, even ones I've sent.

And how do you keep a record of yours?
 
 
The Falcon
03:27 / 04.02.03
I see this thread's improved a lot...

I like toksik, and think he has at the very least tried to respond with (mainly experiential) counter-arguments, and hasn't "shouted folk down" at all.

I quite like Haus too, but would like him more were he not, on occasion, extraordinarily patronising.

But, my God, I fucking hate this thread.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:16 / 04.02.03
Deep breaths, Duncan. What do you hate about it in particular?

I notice that the thread you and Smile linked to earlier appears no longer to link through, and that there is a big notice at the top of the Comics section of Millarworld telling people that rule no.1 is not to "slam creators".

Looks like MM may be the new Warren Ellis after all. Which is a shame because I rather like Ultimates...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
09:14 / 04.02.03
Well, your habit of saying things like Deep Breaths, Duncan might be something, especially to people who aren't called Duncan.
 
 
Graeme McMillan
12:27 / 04.02.03
The thread Duncan and I linked to has gone, but it's not alone - lots of threads disappeared, because the board crashed just after I was banned. Although it had nothing to do with me, honest.

I'd love to know why Duncan hates the thread as well, although I suspect it's because the general consensus on it is that one of his favourite writers acts like a bit of a knob most of the time.
 
 
Graeme McMillan
12:28 / 04.02.03
"Well, your habit of saying things like Deep Breaths, Duncan might be something, especially to people who aren't called Duncan."

Huh?

Duncan's called Duncan, isn't he?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:50 / 04.02.03
I was trying to use humour to imply that Haus says 'Deep Breaths Duncan' all the time, regardless of company or provocation.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:08 / 04.02.03
I say it to Peter Duncan. While I train him to be my gimp. He needs to hold his breath for a long long time.

Actually, Deep Breaths Duncan sounds like a character from Hotspur, a popular comic book for boys in my youth....
 
 
Chill
17:36 / 04.02.03
Assuming that Mark Millar is not homophobic. Do people feel it is wrong/not right/inappropriate for him (anybody?) to use an attitude associated with homophobia for whatever purpose he wishes to achieve (I assume humor here)? Or can this attitude be displayed by people who are homophobic on some level ?
 
 
Char Aina
17:50 / 04.02.03
It's an objection to your apparent inability to do anything else.

which i perhaps should have been clearer, is exactly where it all goes wrong. i was stating to those folks that to accuse me of something will often elicit more of the same bad behaviour. whether it is delinquent use (in 'your' opinion) of the english language, imagined homophobic views, or even not using capital letters enough.


i personally dont think millar is wrong to say things like "cocksmoking faggots", and i dont think it earmarks him as retarded if he does so.
it does however, earmark all of us as People Who Need To Get Out More. seriously, i cant believe that his throwaway comments(as are most famous folks words) are making such a noise for so long.
 
  

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