Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Conversation >

Mark Millar from another perspective.

Page: 1 2 3 4 5(6)7

Graeme McMillan

18:55 / 04.02.03

"Do people feel it is wrong/not right/inappropriate for him (anybody?) to use an attitude associated with homophobia for whatever purpose he wishes to achieve (I assume humor here)?"

It depends what his purposes are, surely. But, if nothing else, he should be aware of how his posing (which, of course, isn't posing, because he's too lazy to do that) can be read by others and have a better defense against charges of homophobia than "I can say what I want to say! I don't have to listen to you crazy PC-people who want to take away my rights to free speech!"

Or, to put it another way: Does he have a reason to use homophobic comments, beyond making thinking it makes him sound edgier and cool?

Graeme McMillan

18:56 / 04.02.03

"i was stating to those folks that to accuse me of something will often elicit more of the same bad behaviour."

But why?

20:48 / 04.02.03

Alright... I think it's about time for one of these . . .

22:10 / 04.02.03

that guy on our right has obviously never had to beat anyone down in a corridor before, or he would have adopted a much better stance. maybe like the guy on the left.

but why?
but why not?

23:18 / 04.02.03

Sorry, but if I had to face of with one of those guys ina hallway... I would take the guy on the right...

Aside from the fact that the guy on the left looks like he's in better shape, he can get one good crack with his stick as soon as I'm with-in reach.

The other guy however is making absolutly no use of his stick and instead is using his hand for guard. Proper timing would have him disarmed before he could bring his stick into play. Proper timing and some decient technique will have the stick in your hands quite quickly. Promper timing and a kick to the balls will have the stick in your hand and him on the floor.

Graeme McMillan

23:33 / 04.02.03

"but why?
but why not?"

Because it doesn't do anything other than antagonise. Because it doesn't attempt to make things better, only worse. Because it doesn't do anything constructive, positive or original. It's dull. It's the equivalent of a wee kid throwing a temper tantrum, and it will undermine any point you ever try to make.

So now you come up with an answer as to why you do it.

00:31 / 05.02.03

It's an interesting approach to criticism, if a rather developmentally stagnant one...

12:41 / 05.02.03

Whatever...

Mark Millar is/isn't a cock; followed by the obligatory "U-Decide!"

I like him and his comics and his politics (he informed me, somewhat bizarrely - at Joe Quesada's messageboards, that he thought Tommy Sheridan was the 'real deal' and he was going to be doing speech rewrites for him - extra fistfights, that sort of thing.) I think his (non-)persona comes across as very agreeable.

Perhaps, then, I am another easy mark inducted into this cult of personality. However, Mark doesn't seem to jibe too well with his American audience, an audience that I imagine is somewhat larger than his Scottish one, being a socialist and calling the US '#1 rogue state' and so on. Which leads me to think he's being genuine.

I hate this thread because it's got the same arguments recycled, and the same accusations levelled that are becoming overly familiar, and thus, dull, on Barbelith. However, I'm beginning to suspect this happens all the time here, so I've chosen to develop a sense of humour about it. This is also why I chose to tell Mark at his board, rather than engage in the same debate I've already had - on his behalf. And as I said there, I don't pretend to know the mind of comics professionals. I'd rather hoped he might quantify or justify his comments here or at MillarWorld. Instead he chose the 'well, fuck them' route, which is understandable given the content of some of this thread.

But it's also because he doesn't know and love youse like I do.

And I post under my real name, yes.

ONLY NICE THINGS

12:53 / 05.02.03

As a general suggestion, I'd say that if you are behaving as if you're on first name terms with somebody whose work you are consuming, then you're probably too close. Interesting that this seems to be far more prevalent in comics discussion than, say, books - I have yet to work out whether it's the readers, the creators or a combination of the two driving the process.

In the meantime, which arguments and which accusations, Duncan? Only, I have a feeling that you may be falling into the classic BB thing here of believing instinctively that things you disagree with are in themselves bad and unnecessary. Which is kind of patronising...

Our Lady of The Two Towers

12:58 / 05.02.03

What, y-you mean, Mark doesn't agree with my opinion? I don't think I can handle this! What am I going to doooooooooooo?

Oh wait. I know.

13:14 / 05.02.03

I'm on first name terms with Mr. Millar as much as I am with anyone else who's had first-name correspondence with me on a messageboard. That's all.

Many comic writers and artists are very accessible; I read someone drawing an analogy between a comics con and Beatles con that was going on next door - 'Our Beatles turned up,' they said. Which I think is kind of nice.

I'm quite capable of distinguishing between the creator and creation, though, Haus and I'd rather you not imply otherwise. I do apologise if you're stung by that 'patronising' comment I made the other day, but having been called one of two 'children' by you recently, I do consider it fairly apposite.

And the running arguments here are the old homophobia/PC chestnuts, which are unutterably dull to me, except when I'm accused of the former. Then I get a bit excited - but really I'm over that, too, so utterly convinced am I of my 'homo-friendly' credentials that I feel no need to prove them textually.

Other than the above disclaimer, of course.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:22 / 05.02.03

Actually, I didn't imply that. I implied you were unable to separate "producer of product" from "lovely scrumping companion and general chum". Not obviously enough, clearly.

On a lighter note - how unpleasant and scary would it have been if the Beatles *had* turned up? I mean, Jesus...that's some fucked-up zombie brain-eating action right there.

(Mind you, I would suggest that if Political Correctness is so boring to you, although attempts to define what it actually *is* seem still to be largely unsuccessful - best stab so far was toksvig's immortal "it's like being dark-haired" (quality), that you stop banging on about it all the time? You guys are obsessed....)

13:43 / 05.02.03

I'm obsessed? What was that little putative character study of Toksik over the page all about?

I hate talking about it. I hate 'it', whatever 'it' is. I hate when it 'goes mad'. I hate when people go on about it 'going mad'.

...perhaps I am obsessed.

13:47 / 05.02.03

And all I said was I liked Mr. Millar's (I'm not going to be so foolish as to use his first name, am I? Noooo.) online persona.

This is clearly not the same as saying 'he's my fwend'. That's pretty insulting, but watch as I fail to rise to the bait...

See?

13:50 / 05.02.03

And comics. And politics.

Scrumping's when you steal apples isn't it? Never done that with anyone. It's all rasps and strawbs round my bit.

Graeme McMillan

16:10 / 05.02.03

You've got to love the three posts in a row all saying "I'm not obsessed! Honest!" while suggesting completely the opposite.

Anyway. "However, Mark doesn't seem to jibe too well with his American audience, an audience that I imagine is somewhat larger than his Scottish one, being a socialist and calling the US '#1 rogue state' and so on. Which leads me to think he's being genuine."

Yeah, it's Mark's international audience that buys all his comics. Making comments like the #1 Rogue State one (He's so radical!) just make him seem more edgy and controversial to the American audience. He knows, as does everyone, that that kind of shit sells comics.

"This is also why I chose to tell Mark at his board, rather than engage in the same debate I've already had - on his behalf."

You could have just not got involved in the first place, if you were so tired of these debates, of course.

Plus:

"all I said was I liked Mr. Millar's (I'm not going to be so foolish as to use his first name, am I? Noooo.) online persona."

But Duncan! It's not a persona! Mark said so himself after you asked him!

19:40 / 05.02.03

Which is why I used '(non-)' above. But I can't be bothered to do that little bit of semantic faffery every time. I didn't ask about the persona thing either - I thought that was something you ascribed.

Try and read the whole thread.

Smile, this is coming off slightly personally, and I suppose it's understandable considering I'm indirectly responsible for your being banned from MillarWorld. I had no desire for that to happen, but seeing as they're moving to a new server anyway, it's largely irrelevant, and you can reregister and take Millar to task if and when you find it necessary. I enjoyed your 'In the Chair' particularly. Really.

I did find it exciting to have one of my top 3 or 4 favourite comic writers reply personally to me on a couple of occasions, though, yes. I am just a teensy bit starstruck about it. But that doesn't mean I don't know he's there to sell comics, and occasionally the company man schtick was wearing a bit thin - fortunately it seems to have slowed recently. However, I do think he has a nice rapport with his fans on his site. And I only buy one (bi)monthly comic from him, sooo...

Oh, and 'Ultimate War' just now.

Making comments like the #1 Rogue State one (He's so radical!) just make him seem more edgy and controversial to the American audience. He knows, as does everyone, that that kind of shit sells comics.

Does it? Well, I suppose Stupid White Men is a bestseller. And No Logo. But I thought of these as exceptions, rather than the rule. The comment, in and of itself, again, seems (to me) more genuine and expansive than you're willing to credit.

Finally, to reply to your 'obsession' comment, I could say I've spent only a small percentile ratio of my internet time talking up Mark Millar in comparison to your dissing up Mark Millar-time - so who's obsessed here? But that would be cheap, as you do quite often address genuine concerns, and I do enjoy reading you for the most part. Here, I thought your out-of-context opener was a bit of a smear tactic, though.

Graeme McMillan

20:15 / 05.02.03

Duncan -

I don't think you're particularly indirectly responsible for my being banned from Millarworld at all... It was the Scotland is(n't) racist and why aren't Marvel bastards for doing to others what DC did to you questions that did that... Although I'd been on Mark's shitlist since the Chair incident, methinks.

And the obsession comment (on my side, at least) was a joke, based upon the irony(?) of posting three times in quick succession just to say that you're not obsessed. Nothing more than that.

As to whether the "edgy" persona works as a selling tool: depends who you're trying to sell to. For the Millar-buying audience, I think it works very very well. Obviously, if he was trying it with the readers of Readers Digest or something, he'd fall flat on his face.

20:56 / 05.02.03

Cool, okay. I'm kind-of enjoying this thread now.

And that's the edgy non-persona, yeah?

Can you boil down exactly what it is you so dislike about Millar? I'm curious.

Regrettable Juvenilia

21:15 / 05.02.03

Speaking personally, it's the way he spent a lot of time saying how radical and lefty-liberal he was when he was writing the Authority, and now seems to revel in this sub-Loaded nonsense and throw around dumb-ass terms like "self-loathing white liberal". But that's just me.

21:32 / 05.02.03

You guys are obsessed...

your bete noire, not mine. i was not the one defeating shadowy hordes, that was my haus-written counterpart. i was making use of a term, one which i use fairly rarely, and one which you hate.
hate is a kind of obsession, isnt it?

but back on track, what is more interesting is not the slurs and sorries, but the fact that someone seemingly got banned for not agreeing with the controller of a forum...
that, to me, seems like freedom of speech is being restricted. that sounds like someone is afraid of open dissent.

i would ask for someone to post a link to the forum in question if it is still in existence, and perhaps for a better explanation of the situation. but not here.
in a new thread.

Graeme McMillan

23:25 / 05.02.03

"Can you boil down exactly what it is you so dislike about Millar? I'm curious."

It's a few things, actually. For one thing, Flyboy hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head: The sub-Loaded shite wears very thin, especially with the (sometimes implied, sometimes outright stated) "I wouldn't lie to you, I'm your best mate, I'm just like you" stance, which is blatantly untrue. The homophobic/racist/sexist language he uses feel, as I said way back at the start of the thread, like embarrassing and desperate attempts to be cool and anti-authority and "down with the kids".

It's also the cult of personality that has built/that he's built around him; it annoyed me about Ellis, and it annoys me even more about Millar, because at least Ellis was trying to say something (but we've touched on this before). Mark, meanwhile, is just seeming to be drunk on the attention and given to being more obnoxious because of it.

And that's just for starters!

23:54 / 05.02.03

So you don't think Millar's trying to say anything? At all?

As a new-minted member of the cult (well, sort of) I'd disagree.

Racist/sexist? I'll give you homophobic language, but not intent; I'm not a fan of the word 'faggot' by any means. My line of thinking here is becoming class-related, actually - linguistic 'slips', such as you perceive them, would be pretty commonplace in Coatbridge, I'm sure.

Although, that said, I can't see 'faggot' having much currency there.

Graeme McMillan

00:04 / 06.02.03

I'm not sure what Millar's trying to say, to be honest, beyond "Like me! Buy my work!" There's possibly an argument for him attempting the "Comic creator as Rock star" meme, but if he is, he's missing the essential sexiness and charm that would require, I think. Considering you disagree, though, what do YOU think he's trying to say?

Racist/sexist = Thinking in particular about the "novelty value" comments from the last column.

00:19 / 06.02.03

I think he works a fairly good political/cynical worldview angle into the 'Ultimates'.

I singularly failed to find the last column racist, and in fact a fairly accurate potrayal of small-town Scotland. In my town there's about two Chinese families and six sub-continental families. And there was one African-origin black kid at my school.

Likewise, I think it's good that Kelly Osbourne offers a different role-model for young women.

Of course, if he simply avoided subjects like this, and he really only went into mildly thorny territory as far as I'm concerned, he wouldn't be susceptible to accusations such as this.

The mention of race and sex in the same sentence does not a racist and sexist sentence make.

And Flyboy, why is "self-loathing white liberal" a 'dumb-ass term'? Because you've heard it too often? Because it has no relevance? Hmmm...

I'd say the meme is more 'comic creator as good bloke' - naturally, some of you will consider 'good bloke' to have attendant problems.

Graeme McMillan

23:47 / 06.02.03

"I'd say the meme is more 'comic creator as good bloke' - naturally, some of you will consider 'good bloke' to have attendant problems."

Emphasis on the "bloke" though, wouldn't you agree?

As to the other things:

Yes to Kelly Osborne being a good role model for kids - I'm not disagreeing with that, but I do think the way he said it was another case of crass-trying-to-be-cool: " isn't it nice having somebody who KNOWS she's been beaten with the fat-stick a little"? I mean, for fuck's sake.

"The mention of race and sex in the same sentence does not a racist and sexist sentence make."

Nope, but saying things along the lines of "She's black, so she has novelty value as a sexual fantasy" does.

23:59 / 06.02.03

And Flyboy, why is "self-loathing white liberal" a 'dumb-ass term'?

I'm not going to speak for Flyboy, but in my opinion it's equal to sticking your fingers in your ears and going "Nyah nah nah nah nah, can't hear you." It's easier to wave away criticism with an offhand comment like this than it is to
A) make any attempt to understand that criticism, and
B) address it properly.
It's another "political correctness gone mad" type statement - these people are attacking me for something I said, I never say anything wrong, therefore there must be something wrong with these people.

00:25 / 07.02.03

maybe Millar meant "faggots" who smoke cocks and he was really being anti-homophobic in objecting to cocks being smoked because having your cock smoked, either in the cigarette sense or the salmon sense has got to be painful. And he was using "faggots" in that pejorative but- nothing -really- to -do -with -actual- homosexuality way. Yeah.... Yeah that's it.....huh huh...

Anyway, if you think Scotland's homogenic (huh huh "homo!") you should try the remoter parts of Ireland. There's a rural myth floating round. Circa 1985 a Jamaican foaf walks into a small shop "somewhere in the arse of nowhere" leading to the proprietress (or the non-gender specific proprietron, perhaps?) to leg it out, yelling "dear lord, it's the devil himself!" . Oh dear. I'm not proud. There are times when tongues should be held and certain urges repressed.

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:53 / 07.02.03

Hey Flyboy, whatchoo doing with the new hip-hop political correctness trend? That not what comics fans want, and you know it. Comics fans have large heads and long arms, and NO TRUCK with the new hip-hop, political correctness trend.

I think that, since the New Hip-Hop, Political Correctness Trend Police have alerted Mark, lovely lovely Mark, Good Man Mark, Best Mate Mark, to this seditious nonsense, it falls upon our next Phidippides to rush whithersoever Kelly Osbourne might be found and tell her, once and for all, that she is a role model for thirtysomething comic book writers' penises, and thus to sigh no more. She will be very happy indeed. I remember well my ladyfriends keeping one watchful, wary eye on the scales, for fear that they would be too "solid" for Mark. But now, now we know that he and his friends would still accept them for lady-lumpy rumpy-pumpy, though they be dumpy, plumpy ladies.

It's a victory for fat chicks, and a defeat for that darned new hip-hop political correctness trend!

Well, I feel a lot better. Thank heavens everything's all right. Wouldn't want to have something wrong with me or anything.

00:59 / 07.02.03

Which is what happens to you when you sniff too much political correctness. In pure form its dangerous enough, but the "shit" you can buy on the streets can have serious neurological consequences. Just say no.

ONLY NICE THINGS

01:08 / 07.02.03

Actually, I feel rather more like the Martian Manhunter in "Rock of Ages", trying to alter the physical structure of my brain to understand how the Joker thinks.

Aha.

Ahahahah.

Ahahahahahah.

Is this Political Correctness gone sane?

Graeme McMillan

01:31 / 07.02.03

Does this mean we can ask you questions and get special Millar-esque answers?

ONLY NICE THINGS

01:43 / 07.02.03

Thank God for lesbians, eh? Gotta love 'em. First up, I reckon that the amount of pleasure given to a whole barful of blokes when two girls are just holding hands at a side table is far greater in toto than the sum of the pleasure any two of those blokes might have got from shagging them. You know, as long as they're pretty. Nothing worse than a pair of mingers intruding on your rich and varied inner life, I say. A bit of meat on the bone's all well and good, but let's not go mad, eh, girls? Plus, if you've got the stones to chance your arm, you've got to be increasing your chances of a threesome (a proper threesome - two girls, a bloke, a big-screen TV and a huge plate of chips) by a factor of at least ten. Go on - what have you got to lose?

If you *are* a lesbian, why not come up to Scotland? You'll get the red-carpet treatment in every boozer in Caledoniahahahahaha. Ahhahahahahhahah.

Ahahaha.

Graeme McMillan

01:52 / 07.02.03

It's like Stars In Their Eyes or something!

But much scarier.

And without Matthew Kelly, who always freaked me out, ever since Game For A Laugh.

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:09 / 07.02.03

Going back to your question, Duncan: both of those, yes - I've heard it too many times before, and it is fairly meaningless. I don't loathe myself (in the music, the moment, you hold it, never ever let it go) - hell, I don't even loathe Millar, just some of the stuff he spews out - and the idea that you can't criticise inequality from a position in which you benefit from it without being motivated by anything other than self-loathing is not only ridiculous, it says a hell of a lot about the mentality of the person making that accusation.

Page: 1 2 3 4 5(6)7