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Urgh! Fuck!: A thread for untamed hate and anger [PICS]

 
  

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All Acting Regiment
12:56 / 25.05.08
That looks nasty. Something similar happened in my school when I was about ten - getting the class together and having them all call down anathema on a kid who'd been misbehaving.

Looking back, the odd thing is that I don't know whether it was right or wrong. I can remember being 'against it'. I think that was because half the little shitbags who were earnestly complaining about the possibly-learning-difficulties chap were stealing my pencils and so on the rest of the time (and indeed had been provking him).
 
 
Jack Fear
14:06 / 27.05.08
Ugh. This story happened to be on the morning news as I sat eating breakfast with Our Boy (who is six). He was aghast: “How can you vote someone out of kindergarten?” he asked. (He didn’t seem anxious that it was going to happen to him, mind you—which is how small children often react to the news—simply appalled that such a shitty, shitty thing could happen to anyone.)

I explained it as best I could, and he just shook his head. “That’s terrible,” he said. “Teachers and moms and dads should always love their children.” Then, with the smirk of someone showing off a newly-acquired vocabulary word, he added, “And vice-versa.”

And, y’know, he’s not wrong.

While I don’t know the circumstances behind this—and while I have tons of sympathy for public school teachers, who are often young women doing an incredibly difficult and stressful job for little money and less respect, who are, thanks to the policy of mainstreaming special-needs kids, increasingly called upon to deal simultaneously with several different constituencies in the classroom with short-changing any of them, often without the specialized training, support and resources that they need to adequately do so—I think I can say unequivocally that you DON’T JUST FUCKING MAKE A SCAPEGOAT OF A FIVE-YEAR OLD FA CHRISSAKES.

Having a shitty day, Teach? Kids pressing all your buttons? Hey, it happens. And it’s rough. And teaching is not for everybody. But, y’know, you suck it up ‘til the 3:15 bell. After that, you can drink abusively, tender your resignation, shoot yourself in the fucking head for all I care—but when you've got kids in your care, hold it together.
 
 
Shrug
14:20 / 27.05.08
That's really really reprehensible.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:32 / 27.05.08
My understanding is that she was going to send him to the principle's office anyway. Thus, the "tried beyond endurance!" defence so often trotted out when people with learning difficulties, AS conditions, or other disabilites are abused doesn't hold water. The nipper would have been out of her hair either way, she just decided to make it that much nastier for him.

Do people actually know what kids are? As in, not small but fully-formed grownups?
 
 
Char Aina
14:48 / 27.05.08
From the comments:

Melissa Barton actually went on national television this morning and compared Wendy Portillo to Al Quaida. Really?
I wonder if everyone would be so incredulous if all the propaganda spinning and sensationalism were stripped out of this story. The truth is, Alex Barton isn't diagnosed with anything. Melissa Barton says she is "now in the process of having him tested for Aspergers," which translates to "I can't sue anyone if my kid is just a brat." Ms. Barton could barely control her own child during their appearance on "The Early Show." The fact is that after numerous unsuccessful attempts to address the child’s behavior problems, including individual attention and referrals to the principal, Wendy Portillo used an admittedly unconventional method to teach a child with horrible behavior how his behavior was affecting those around him. She didn't break any laws, she didn't harm him, and she didn't deny him an education. (I assume everyone realizes he wasn't actually voted out of the class.) Everyone needs to take a breath and put this into perspective.



Exclusion is pretty harsh for a five year old. I wonder what he did to provoke such on over the top reaction in a teacher.
 
 
Haus Of Pain
14:53 / 27.05.08
amazing!
 
 
Char Aina
15:00 / 27.05.08
After that, you can drink abusively, tender your resignation, shoot yourself in the fucking head for all I care—but when you've got kids in your care, hold it together.

If the teachers do resign, kill themselves, or become alcoholics, I think it might negatively affect the education of your children. Better to support the teaching process more effectively, no?

Perhaps a cry for better assistance with learning difficulty issues and/or problematic pupils? Rather than a cry for a stiff upper lip and a suicide?
 
 
Jack Fear
15:24 / 27.05.08
It's not either/or, it's both/and. By all means agitate like hell for more support when you're outside the classroom—but when you're amongst the nippers, absolutely keep a stiff upper lip.

If this was a cry for help, it was a horrendously misguided one—especially since that “help” is supposed to primarily be of benefit to the children. “Every day, children fall through the cracks in the system—and to demonstrate this, I’m going to forcefully shove young Alex down this particularly jagged crack...”

Fuck that noise. A child is not an object lesson—a child is a child.

Excuses there may be in plenty, but there’s no real defense for what Ms. Portillo did.

That being said, the whole “worse than al-Qaeda” thing was ridickingdonkulous.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
15:35 / 27.05.08
I know people who are very close to me who were physically abused by a teacher. That's why the power of corporal punishment was stripped from them, but perhaps the pendulum has swung too far...
In my grade school, the principal had the right to administer "the strap" (A leather belt swiped across open palms) Stung like mad, and he only strapped you once for an offence. You had to do some serious misbehaving to get "the strap". Before he resorted to that, there were "pink slips", garbage picking (our school's asphalt yard was spotless!), pushups, then detention. I recieved "the strap"...
once.
I was being a shit. I never did it again. The principal, Mr. Leck, never abused anyone, just disciplined them.
Sad fact is that teachers have become impotent when it comes to discipline.
Both parents usually work and the kid lacks structure. I seriously doubt that anyone here over 30 would have ever dared to tell an adult to "Fuck off". I have four friends who are teachers: It's pretty commonplace now.
"You're not my Parents!"
Well, the parents get told to Fuck off, as well, and still no-one disciplines the child...
I believe that Astbergers, ADD, and all these behaviour disorders exist, perhaps due to chemicals in our diets, drinking from plastic bottles, whatever...
But, the fact that adults rarely discipline children anymore, the fact that teachers are over worked and underpaid (often, not always), and the fact that the parents are busting their asses to buy food, pay a mortgage, and gas two SUV's to pay any real attention to their children doesn't help, either...
I don't condone what the teacher did, because it's kinda harsh on a 5yr-old, but I think I understand...
 
 
Char Aina
15:44 / 27.05.08
“Every day, children fall through the cracks in the system—and to demonstrate this, I’m going to forcefully shove young Alex down this particularly jagged crack...”

I don't think it is clear she was demonstrating that, or bigotry, or exclusion. It seems she could have been trying to confront someone with consequences. To be fair, though, I'd rather have more information.

As I have already said, but in case it needs said again, I think exclusion is pretty fucking harsh for a five ear old.

I don't find it helpful to suggest suicide as a solution to overworked teachers, and I don't find it helpful to pretend this was intended as an object lesson in bigotry, exclusion or children falling through the cracks when we have no evidence to that end.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:51 / 27.05.08
He's 5. I've taught 5-year-olds. There's a limit as to how horrific a single 5-year-old can be, really, esp. if the principle's office is an option.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:55 / 27.05.08
Also, I'm pissed off at the suggestion that this little boy's mum is only having him assessed for AS so she can sue the school. There's no reason to assume that he's not on the autism spectrum--he's very little, not much time for a diagnosis to have been arrived at yet.

And people with AS conditions are almost universally singled out and bullied. The more noticable the AS, the more harsh the abuse, right up to staff and parents who kill the kids either by negligent cruelty or by design.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
15:57 / 27.05.08
I assume everyone realizes he wasn't actually voted out of the class.

so this was a mock vote? an attempt to show the child that his disruptive behavior was not, in fact, appreciated by the other students?

was the child excluded or not? I'm confused.

I can't imagine any situation in which it would be helpful to encourage other students to label a child "disgusting". they're not talking about how his behavior makes them feel, they're talking about him.

teacher = fail

perhaps the pendulum has swung too far...

I hear this sort of stuff a lot. "I got switched as a kid and I turned out just fine!"

are we just fine? we voted for George Bush Jr. twice.

as someone who tried, briefly, to teach a junior high math class, I identify with the idea that it's difficult to know what to do these days to control a classroom. it would be nice if, in addition to saying "laying hands on a child is never okay", there were substantial lessons around the idea "...and here's what you do instead, and here's the psychology research to back up why it's better."

I'm sure some teachers get that advice, but I know for a fact some don't...
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
16:09 / 27.05.08
I hear this sort of stuff a lot. "I got switched as a kid and I turned out just fine!"

are we just fine? we voted for George Bush Jr. twice.


I couldn't supress a giggle at that one...

Yeah, it is an individual's statement and cannot be applied across the board. Plenty of kids who got switched turned rotten, too...

I really don't think that hitting a child is a great thing, but I prefer these things to be considered on an individual basis. Sometimes there is such a thing as a "healthy" fear. When an adult is in charge of children, they need to be the authority. I do not believe you can "reason" with a 5 year old all that much, especially when they know that there won't be reprecussions for their behaviour.

I'm also sure there were more people who were switched as children who voted Kennedy in...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:58 / 27.05.08
I explained it as best I could, and he just shook his head.

Is this something that happens quite often, chez Fear?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:26 / 27.05.08
I assume everyone realizes he wasn't actually voted out of the class.

He was being sent to the head's office anyway, and the teacher decided that this would be a good opportunity to demonstrate the proper way to deal with weirdos in the schoolroom.

perhaps the pendulum has swung too far...

I think framing the current crop of issues facing schools, children and educators as a simple matter of the power balance between kids and teachers is dangerously misguided and simplistic. There are far more factors involved. Growing class sizes, lack of investment in schools, lack of trained staff for some subjects (like maths) overworked and underpaid teachers all play their part. Also, issues affecting the broader community such as poverty and crime do not just switch off at the school gates.
 
 
Char Aina
19:49 / 27.05.08
the teacher decided that this would be a good opportunity to demonstrate the proper way to deal with weirdos in the schoolroom.

Source? That seems to editorialise too far to me, and i would like to see what you are basing it on. Specifically, how do you know the teacher was attempting "to demonstrate the proper way to deal with weirdos", rather than, say, attempting to draw the child's attention to the effect of his behaviour?
I'd like to read something that makes it clear why the kid was, as jack put it, an object lesson. So far I don't see that information.

Can anyone help me?

perhaps the pendulum has swung too far...

It's not a pendulum. it's an intricate network of gears and levers. There's no position to be found, but instead a long list of settings for optimum performance that vary depending on conditions and precision of our understanding of said conditions.



I think framing the current crop of issues facing schools, children and educators as a simple matter of the power balance between kids and teachers is dangerously misguided and simplistic. There are far more factors involved. Growing class sizes, lack of investment in schools, lack of trained staff for some subjects (like maths) overworked and underpaid teachers all play their part. Also, issues affecting the broader community such as poverty and crime do not just switch off at the school gates.


Agreed. I'd add poor parenting to that list.
If you've ever been to a few parents evenings or parent teacher conferences regarding problematic pupils, you'll know exactly what I mean. Some folks are too proud and not concerned enough with raising their kids well.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
01:09 / 30.05.08
OK, I've left this a few days for various reasons, but my anger burns bright and pure.

A friend of mine on another board died recently. So I, and another friend there, started a tribute thread to him on that board. So OF COURSE, this being the internet, someone else starting a thread not explicitly slagging him off, but clearly with the intention of being a space to do so. Of course, being me, I basically did the internet equivalent of being the drunk guy who starts a fight at a funeral.

I know. It's the internet. Expect trolling ALL the time. And I did. I wasn't surprised (I even think the resultant shitfight was one the deceased would have really enjoyed, had he not been the subject. He'd DEFINITELY have had my back in it). But now my rage has calmed enough to the point where it can actually achieve coherence and articulacy.

I'm not gonna go TOTALLY House here with the "humanity is overrated" thing...

...but for all this amazing shit we can do now, we still use it to fuck each other over. JUST BECAUSE WE CAN. (Yes, I know, *chans... that is EQUALLY fucked up).

It's horribly depressing, and when it's my friend's death that's being used as a football, it makes me wish that the ending of Escape From LA actually happened in the real world. Even though it was a rubbish film. And, apart from anything else, should have been called Escape From New York 2: Electric Boogaloo.

There should be a prize for someone who can invent an amazing thing that is actually incapable of being used for evil.

Actually, no, there shouldn't. The world needs evil. But I am allowed to be angry about it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
01:10 / 30.05.08
(Think I was overly optimistic about the articulacy thing. And the coherence. Sorry).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:38 / 30.05.08
Source? That seems to editorialise too far to me, and i would like to see what you are basing it on. Specifically, how do you know the teacher was attempting "to demonstrate the proper way to deal with weirdos", rather than, say, attempting to draw the child's attention to the effect of his behaviour?

Oh ffs. Yes, that's editorialising somewhat. So lucky you were here to point that out, I'm sure that otherwise everyone reading this would have taken it as Gospel. Can you give me a better reason for dragging a 5-year-old up in front of a class of 16 and having every single kid in the class tell him why he sucks, one after the other? Oh yeah, I'm sure she's just trying to demonstrate the error of his ways in a fair and even-handed manner.

Also, from another report on the incident: "[Alex] told [Morningside's school resource officer that] Mrs. Portillo said, 'I hate you right now. I don't like you today'." That's the teacher talking to the kid. I hate you. Sure he could be making it up, but the school's own resourse officer seems to have thought it credible enough to report.

Portillo told the officer after he left with Alex that day, she talked with the other children.

"Portillo said she explained to them that the students in class were all her priority and she would protect them like a 'bear defending her cubs'," the report said.


Protect them from whom? From a five-year-old?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:42 / 30.05.08
Further commentary from activist Amanda Baggs, outlining the problems with the teacher's approach in the context of the bullying experienced by many developmentally disabled children.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
11:23 / 30.05.08
That teacher does make me feel headsick.
 
 
Lama glama
11:41 / 30.05.08
Last exam time. For which I am wholly unprepared and it's all my own fucking fault. ARRGH!
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
13:04 / 30.05.08
I am really pissed at stupid dumbass motherfuckers who smoke in their cars with kids in the back seat. I don't give a fuck if the window's open, the kids are still coughing.
And then you have the absolute fucking nerve to hang a "Baby on Board" sign in the rear window!?!?!? You shit-sucker! Caution me about my potential reckless driving because you think I'm thinking, "Oh look, a Subaru... I'm gonna ram him! Oh, wait... They have a "Baby on Board", better not..."
You Fuck! Huffing poison in your kid's face and then cautioning others to "drive safe" because you're hauling children?! I'll give you somthing other than a cigarette to suck on...
I'm an ex smoker, and I believe that smokers have rights and they should have the opportunity to poison themselves in lots of places: But not in a car with kids, especially not the little ones all strapped in.
You fucks should be ashamed. Go suck the tail-pipe of a diesel trailer.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:22 / 30.05.08
Good luck with it. What's it on?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:32 / 30.05.08
Also, re: whether the pendulum has slipped too far and so on regarding corporal punishment. I'd like to point out that whatever set of rules we've got now were probably decided by qualified people with experience in the field - they'll have carried out the best tests possible, and I can't imagine them making a decision in bad faith.

Also, looking at general problems that exist today and blaming them on a specific law in the past is dubious, for two reasons. First, kids have always been rude and agressive: I was, he was, she was, etc - without a serious analaysis I'm not sure we should start thinking that things really are any worse. Secondly, how can we be so sure that it's the lack of corporal punishment which is causing whatever problems we identify, and not, say, junk food which is full of chemicals which (so New Scientist told me) encourage autistic features and ADHD?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
14:37 / 30.05.08
I think that diet does play a big role, as does poverty, lack of parenting (And by this I mean having a full time parent since both parents usually need to work) as well as the laws in place. There's not one single contributing factor. The lack of corporal punishment may also play a small part because sometimes a smack on the ass by a parent or a slap on the hand by a teacher can be a valuable learning tool.
And I can't agree with "I'd like to point out that whatever set of rules we've got now were probably decided by qualified people with experience in the field":
We live in a world of prohibition, lawsuits and all sorts of stupid laws. There are many many many people who agree with Dr. Phil 100% about everything he says because Oprah thinks he's a "Qualified person with experience in the field." Many laws are based on trends and "new discoveries" and are not always well researched. Sometimes the behavioural psychologist with the best funding and loudest voice gets the most recognition, just like how scientists were claiming that Ethanol Corn was going to save the world, and got governments to adopt all these new policies. He who shouts loudest gets heard...
(Sorry if I'm going all over the place with this, I have a deep scepticism of "Experts"... They tend to focus on one thing and not look at the bigger picture.)
Thing is, I don't think there's an easy answer... There are so many factors involved with the raising of children it's impossible to come up with a catch-all set of rules. Children, as individuals, need individual attention, and unfortunately our society just isn't set up for that at the moment.
I like the anthropoligists idea of hunter-gatherer societies: Nobody owned anything, and the tribe was responsible for the children. When the able-bodied parents (Both male and female) were hunting and gathering, and the grandparents and "less-abled" did the "domestic" chores and child rearing and passing on the tribal heritage to the children...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:46 / 30.05.08
Or the better-attested impact of poor nutrition in general, or the fact that if you stick escalating numbers of children in a confined space and expect a single adult to keep order something somewhere is likely to give, paretns being forced to work longer and longer hours to make ends meet, and so on.
 
 
Char Aina
14:59 / 30.05.08
Oh ffs. Yes, that's editorialising somewhat. So lucky you were here to point that out, I'm sure that otherwise everyone reading this would have taken it as Gospel. Can you give me a better reason for dragging a 5-year-old up in front of a class of 16 and having every single kid in the class tell him why he sucks, one after the other? Oh yeah, I'm sure she's just trying to demonstrate the error of his ways in a fair and even-handed manner.

I don't think anybody took it as gospel, nor do I expect you to think they would. I was asking you for a source, and explaining why. Your tone here suggests I have irked you by questioning you, which was not my intention.
 
 
Evil Scientist
15:08 / 30.05.08
(Sorry if I'm going all over the place with this, I have a deep scepticism of "Experts"... They tend to focus on one thing and not look at the bigger picture.)

What if they're an expert at looking at the bigger picture?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:13 / 30.05.08
Sorry if I'm going all over the place with this, I have a deep scepticism of "Experts"... They tend to focus on one thing and not look at the bigger picture.

So where does this happen in today's school system? I mean, yes, all the reasons you give for not treating the current professional practise as if it's the One Truth are legitimate, but I'm not aware of any really important work in favour of corporal punishment that's being drowned out by 'trends' or 'people with louder voices'.

That, and the fact that although qualified people are not infallible people, those calling for more corporal punishment tend not to work with children. In fact they tend to be working with subjective memories of their own particular childhood, which is not the best kind of evidence one can bring.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:16 / 30.05.08
just like how scientists were claiming that Ethanol Corn was going to save the world,

Which scientists, exactly, were claiming this? Because from where I've been standing, it looks more like the ethanol mirage was created by a combination of government subsidies and decidedly unscientific wishful thinking on the part of politicians, with the scientific community attempting vainly to inject a little sanity into the proceedings.

It's terribly easy to talk about "scientists" doing this and "scientists" doing that, but there's a difference between science and the misapplication of technology in the interests of the wealthy and powerful.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
15:44 / 30.05.08
I'd like to point out that whatever set of rules we've got now were probably decided by qualified people with experience in the field - they'll have carried out the best tests possible, and I can't imagine them making a decision in bad faith.

Like the "no child left behind" policy?

sorry but this is a little silly. "probably", "I can't imagine". this sounds exactly like the people basing their knowledge of how to raise children on vague memories of how they were schooled and guesses about what "probably" works better and trends they think they see today, and not any actual study.

from what I've seen and heard from both teachers and school board people, the process determining how we do things in school is very, very random. depends on who got elected to the board that year, how much money we had, how much money the president is giving for what policies...do things really get based on careful study? sometimes, maybe. there's no rule saying they will or even should.

that being said, i feel the same way - is anyone outside of grumpy old people like me arguing that corporal punishment is a good thing and some cabal of liberal scientists is covering it up? I doubt it.

do kids have it "too easy" today? I doubt that too. would that really be a bad thing anyway? maybe if robots take over the world and we're all softies who can't fight back because we didn't get beaten up enough, I guess.

I suspect kids have a slightly different set of problems today than we did, is all. everybody thinks their generation was the last good one...I bet the bablyonians said the same thing.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
16:25 / 30.05.08
Which scientists, exactly

Those which form the 90% of the "scientific" community who are most quoted by the news media. Those "Independant" researchers who are employed by companies which are owned by oil companies and large farming corporations, both who have great government lobbying powers, of course...

Which brings about my scepticism: Pharmaceutical companies such as Novartis have vested interest in funding studies and research so they can promote the need for drugs like Ritalin.
Does Ritalin work? Sure. But it's a band-aid solution, and the large companies want to keep such a soultion as the only alternative rather than have people look at other causes of behavioural problems such as socio-economic issues, poor nutrition, less attention to parenting which leads to discipline problems, less teachers with more students, etc... The people making the money don't want to look at root causes because that may one day lead to a cure, or reversal of behaviour, in any rate. I'm sorry, but I have to take a conspiracy theorist stance on this: Follow the money to see much of our ills.
I do know that when I grew up we ate less processed foods, were allowed less soda, and had a healthier respect (sometimes fear) for authority. I'm not saying that kids are worse today; They're not. But they do have more stacked against them: Less freedom, worse food, more drugs(such as Ritalin), prone to more allergies and enviromental pathogens, less discipline, and to top it off they're the targets of massive consummerist advertising campaigns which can become mind-boggingly confusing as they try to teach each child to try identify themselves with such-and-such a product.
Either they have no structure at home and become rambunctious, or they have too much organized for them (soccer, karate, dancing, swimming, piano, etc...every day in some cases) in an effort to make up for lack of actual parenting, and they develop stress disorders. (OK, it's not really an either/or, but both examples are becoming increasingly common)
Kids are no longer allowed to be kids, and because they are overprotected, they're not allowed to be grown-up, either. They're left in a limbo of sorts, trying to figure things out for themselves, in many cases with no one to guide them.
I know of a woman whose little boy, five years old, pretty hyperactive,kept reaching up to the stove when she was cooking. She patiently explained to him why he shouldn't do this because he will get burned. Still, ignoring her, he would try reach for the element. Finally she decided that all her reasoning was not them getting anywhere, so one time while the element was on low, she decided to let him reach for it, figuring that he'd feel the heat and learn his lesson. Well, he pushed the pot away and grabbed the element, recieving 1st degree burns. The mother freaked out and rushed him to my wife's clinic (This is how I learned the story) to get him treated. The doctor was shocked and disgusted at the woman's "lesson" and called social services, who now keep a close eye on her.
I've once dated a woman and was in a very similar situation with a similar outcome*, and I wonder... If after the 4th or 5th time she would have taken him, given him a firm slap on the ass and said, "No! Hot!" this could have been avoided. Maybe not, but I don't think it would have hurt.

(*Marie's kid ran strait for a fireplace at a friend's cottage. I grabbed his arm and said "No, you'll get burned!" I was frightened for him, and I guess that frightened him, so Marie yelled at me, then sat Nick down and explained why he shouldn't touch the fireplace. He was almost 3. As soon as she put him down, he ran past me and touched the fireplace and blistered his little fingers. Marie yelled at me again because "I let him do it"...)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:31 / 30.05.08
And had a healthier respect (sometimes fear) for authority.

But, but, isn't this a bad thing? I read the Invisibles, you know. Authority is bad. I think Warren Ellis said something similar...
 
  

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