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Adventures in Christian fundamentalism

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22:59 / 20.09.02

i've actually become semi addicted to this site. Theres one thread where a guy seems to be having a mental breakdwon, is drinking hard, doing cocaine, and appears to have lost his wife to an illness. Kinda sad.

23:39 / 20.09.02

"Ooh quick let's go and have a look" said Janina with much glee (she had hit her posting limit)! Aware that she had to get as much internet time in as possible before leaving bedroom broadband in the wastelands of Herts.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:04 / 21.09.02

Paleface- I wasn't having a go. Honest. I was mostly agreeing with you, just trying to clarify some terms. (If I knew how to do a smiley thing, there'd be one here.)

I don't think defending one's religion makes 'em a nutjob. Far from it. What I do think is that they should be prepared to, and realise that they will probably have to, do so. Which I think you've been doing a pretty good job at. If they're NOT prepared to defend it from the awkward questions, then I question the depth of their faith (which was always my problem as a Christian- I doubted a little too much. Which I think was probably more of a failing on my part than on the religion's, but I didn't feel comfortable classifying myself as something which I wasn't entirely sure I believed.)

"God's cool". That rocks.

Whoah. WAY off the point here.

'nesh- I know it's an obvious point, but the thing I always find *funny* about "Christian" homophobia is that as far as I remember, all the anti-gay stuff in the Bible is in the Old Testament (when, unpleasant and ill-advised as it, and much of the other stuff therein is, I think it was largely used as part of a drive to get the Tribes of Israel to have more kids)... Jesus (on whose teachings the whole Christianity thing is supposed to be based) didn't seem to have too much of a problem with it. (Yeah, I know John was a sexist bastard, but one bad apple and all that...) Fundamentalists tend to have a very selective reading of the book.

00:38 / 22.09.02

Numerous different religions
= numerous different rules
= numerous different ways to end up in Hell.

Logic:
We don't all follow one and the same religion
= we are constantly breaking some rule of another religion
= we will therefore all burn in Hell.

See you all down there in the heat...

13:19 / 22.09.02

Fundamentalists tend to have a very selective reading of the book.

Tell me about it. Look at the number of American Christian capitalists. I remember Flyboy once mentioned a preacher who attempted to remove all the scripture about God's attitude to the love of money, and then used the tattered, gutted remnants of the book as a means to show this kind of Christians the kind of Bible they were reading.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

21:04 / 22.09.02

I believe 'Nesh was turfed off the board, alas. But perhaps they'll have him back. After a brief glance, I can only say the I'm deeply reassured of the amazingess of you lot. I've never seen a culture so rigidly circumscribed. One small, closed set of answers for everything - where's the richness which was once a part of Christian culture? Not there, that's for sure.

Nah. That's not fair. Christian culture is still rich - it's just the churches and the theocracy which are in decline. Although I'm concerned because I notice the Alpha course is still doing it's happy thing.

22:49 / 22.09.02

Christianity can still a broad and wonderful thing. It's just that the good guys don't get any press.

And I too am glad that most of you lot aren't black and white in your opinions. The Magick forum boys and girls could've reacted to me very badly when I started posting, and I'm very grateful that so many people with so negative an experience of the church welcomed me as much as they did. This is a cool place indeed.

God, I'm a soppy emotional prat this evening.

... actually, make that all this week.

Monkeyzilla Vs Tokyo

00:17 / 23.09.02

Did anybody else notice how they all seem seriously screwed up? Like in the prayer request and child rearing or marriage topic area thingys. Most of the threads talk about please help me my daughter is on the drugs and engaging in sexual acts yadi yadi, please pray for her. Why don't they just talk to there children? Or put them in rehab if it's that bad. Weird people..

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:55 / 23.09.02

And then I realised it read almost word for word like the numerous threads on lesbian message boards that use the same question to bash butch dykes. How depressing is that?

This is possibly an important point - is there something about internet discussion boards in general rather than the specific cause/faith/interest/subculture they purport to represent, that leans towards a 'hardline' attitude and, perversely, an antipathy to open-minded discussion?

(Barbelith aside, um, 'obviously'...)

We're The Great Old Ones Now

13:09 / 23.09.02

Okay, I just noticed there's a Dane McGowan posting there. Anyone want to own up?

13:51 / 23.09.02

Flyboy - perhaps it's the anonymity of the message board; people know that they can make some pretty nasty statements and get away with it. I find many not so much hardline as thoughtless/mindless. What would never be said in a real life debate can be thrown in (and the butch bashing has come up in this way many, many times from a lesbian community that appear disturbingly de-politicisized), as insulting as you like. If the person is challenged as to why they've said what they said, the offended party is told they 'have no sense of humour' or that the original message was supposed to start a debate.

23:44 / 23.09.02

I am currently in a minor state of turmoil about my spiritual beliefs, but a good Christian friend of mine would argue that, being gay is not a sin, but the practice of homosexuality is. Quite where she defines 'practice', I don't know, but probably somewhere physical, rather than mental. Interestingly, didn't the new leader of the C of E have something to do with putting some 'practicing homosexuals' in a position of power in the church?

23:55 / 23.09.02

If you mean Dr Rowan Williams, the new Archbishop of Canterbury, then yes, he's gone on record as saying that "if we are looking for a sexual ethic that can be informed by our Bible, there is a good deal to steer us away from assuming that reproductive sex is a norm, however, important or theologically significant it may be... I am not convinced that a homosexual has to be celibate in every imaginable circumstance". He's also openly admitted ordaining a man who he knew had a homosexual partner.

Before encountering ChristianBBS, my response to the above would've been 'big deal'. Now, sadder but wiser, I'm aware exactly how big a deal it actually is. It would appear that even the most liberal of Christians there would permit my escape from fiery damnation only on the grounds that I avoided all physical and social contact with the same sex forever, 'repented' and spent the rest of my life in lonely, self-loathing celibacy.

00:00 / 24.09.02

With regard to the "practice" of homosexuality, this is one of the things I tried hard to get the ChristianBBS posters to define for me (along with "promoting", "act" and "lifestyle"). After a lot of essentially unexamined scripture-slinging (they seemed, repeatedly, to misunderstand the thrust of my questioning) the frankly scary Missy78 characterised a "homosexual act" as any physical intimacy between homosexuals, and "homosexual lifestyle" the act of living openly as a gay man or woman. To much online applause.

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:01 / 24.09.02

Rowan Williams (who is not the Archbish of Cant yet) is, as Anglicans go, a fucking dream in human form. Fearsomely bright, able to unite the Catholic and liberal wings of the church, and enormously open to the Church being enriched by other voices.

He opposed the Lambeth resolution of 1998 that stated that homosexual practice (by which we mean fucking, boys and girls. Big gay fucking) was fundamentally incompatible with Christianity. He has been quoted as saying that he does not believe that celibacy is the only correct choice for gay Christians or gay clergy.

Incumbent George Carey, conversely, is a gitstick of the first water, who is firmly in favour of the Lambeth resolution and wrote in condemnation of the diocese of New Westminster's decision to perform same-sex marriage blessings. As an evangelical, he is firmly in favour of developing the Church of England along the lines of the Anglican church in Africa, which is generally fiercely homophobic (barring Desmond Tutu's school of thought, bless 'im). God, he is despicable.

Carey is also, in episcopal terms, very stupid indeed. Williams is, conversely, very, very clever. It would be wrong to assume that this means he will be able to carry the church with him on homosexuality. But at least he'll be able to try to persuade them in fucking complete sentences.

I'm amazed and impressed that Blair (who, admittedly, has well-publicised Catholic leanings himself) did not choose Michael Nazir-Ali to carry on Carey's bad work.

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:04 / 24.09.02

'Nesh - I know that it may seem absurd to non-Anglicans, but this is a very big deal indeed. George Carey turned the Church of England into a grotesque combination of chocolate box and prison camp, and in doing so surrendered any hopes it may have had to inform the non-churchgoing majority agenda in anything other than a pastoral fashion. From Williams we can hope for genuine, progressive and courageous moral speculation.

He's going to be crucified.

00:07 / 24.09.02

I suspect my former, somewhat naive impression of modern Christianity was informed more by the self-selecting handful of (apparently abnormally-liberal) Christians I know personally than by any broader reality...

02:27 / 24.09.02

And then of course you have the madness that is the Ex-Gay Ministry. *sighs*

We're The Great Old Ones Now

09:36 / 24.09.02

I think many people want their religions to be safe spaces, where they don't have to deal with things they're troubled by in every day life.

The Return Of Rothkoid

10:22 / 24.09.02

Devil's advocate, really, but how many people being vocal in favour of anti-homosexual teaching/codes are going to be troubled by the idea in everyday life? I mean, do many people like that fall into the "Well, I've never met one" kind of camp? You know - blithely believe that everyone in the world is het, white and [insert denomination here]?

23:27 / 24.09.02

I think many people want their religions to be doubt free spaces: however strongly one continually affirms one's faith, there remains an unconscious anxiety that too much dissenting debate, however polite, might introduce elements potentially corrosive to that faith. If I was still posting on CBBS (and, having been reinstated, I'm technically able to do so) I'd start a thread on whether doubt was a Good or Bad Thing.

I see there're several new arrivals to my thread, generating discussion that's a little less one-sided. I assume 'Science' and 'Tycho' are Barbeloids? Interestingly, their views have been tolerated far better than mine - perhaps because they've remained silent on the question of their own sexuality...

Debate for and against the censorship of "soapboxing" and "promoting the homosexual lifestyle" continues to rage in the Help/Suggestions forum - although, depressingly, even those arguing for freedom of discussion tend to do so from the standpoint that the Bible "clearly" states that homosexuality is wrong, and that gay people coming to the site should be gently encouraged to repent - as long as they don't argue their case too much.

Can 'sin' (even - especially - 'victimless' sin which pisses God off nonetheless) ever be divorced from Christianity, or are the two concepts inextricably bound together?

23:56 / 24.09.02

Can 'sin' (even - especially - 'victimless' sin which pisses God off nonetheless) ever be divorced from Christianity, or are the two concepts inextricably bound together?

I'd say they are 'inextricably bound'. Sin/guilt is the mechanism for control within christianity. Without it the religion has far less leverage over its adherants. It also undermines the 'sacrifice' of Jesus for 'our' sin, which is pretty central to the faith.

00:08 / 25.09.02

tend to do so from the standpoint that the Bible "clearly" states that homosexuality is wrong,

I noticed from my brief perusal of the site that many of the 'clear condemnations' gleamed from the bible are vague at best, mostly falling into the category of 'well you could interpet it that way' or 'I believe it means this is because that's what someone told me it means'. A lot of the quotes had nothing to do with homosexuality at all...

00:11 / 25.09.02

My point exactly.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:33 / 25.09.02

As far as "practising" goes, as far as I recall it's only really the sex outside marriage thing that the NT has a problem with- legalise gay marriage, and there's no longer a contradiction.

But then, that's just my interpretation.

10:55 / 25.09.02

"however strongly one continually affirms one's faith, there remains an unconscious anxiety that too much dissenting debate".

Good point, O Elephant Headed One: I've wondered on occasion if this is part of the motivation for the frenzy that evanglicals seem to be in, "if we can convert the world, then we'll be sure we're right!"

13:31 / 25.09.02

I wonder who Tycho is....

I'd definitely start a thread on doubt, because I think doubt is central in establishing faith. I'm pretty sure Chesterton had some good things to say about doubt.

Sin is, yes, central. Sin is the equalizer of humankind, as a measure of imperfection - not just in the sense of things we do wrong, but in the sense that we are all separated from God. Kings, presidents, nuns, bankers, students, fascists, anarchists, whoever. All fall short.

I'd really like to see a couple gnostic threads sprout over there, just to see what the people do with the idea of the Living God.

Not sure I'm up to starting them properly, though.

17:23 / 25.09.02

Sin/guilt is the mechanism for control within christianity. Without it the religion has far less leverage over its adherants.

I've heard the Pope and his evil winged monkeys are uniting all Christian broadcasters to in order to introduce hypnotic suggestion into all Christian programming. The idea is to introduce more effective means of control, so that the idea of "sin" can be done away with by the year 2025.

Jesus Fucking Wept. I'm going to have to stop reading this thread, if it's going to carry on with this kind of shit.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:27 / 25.09.02

Ganesh: "...Missy78 characterised a "homosexual act" as any physical intimacy between homosexuals, and "homosexual lifestyle" the act of living openly as a gay man or woman."

Cos, like, God's cool with living in secret as a gay man or woman. Cos that's only, like, lying, and God's fine with that, obviously.

Jesus! (for want of a better epithet). These kind of fuckers do, I agree, give Christianity a bad name.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:31 / 25.09.02

Just to add:

My main "problem" with Christianity, when I think about it, is just that I find it horribly depressing. In the way it pisses you off when your favourite band releases a shit album.

A religion based on love (and still practised in that way in many cases, I hasten to add) has ended up becoming all hateful.

I really don't think Jesus would approve of today's church. He'd probably find a lot of good in it (cos he was good at that kind of thing) but overall, I expect he'd be fairly disappointed.

Not a lost cause. Just in need of some kind of reformation, or revival, or something. Or anything.

18:37 / 27.09.02

If you're not keeping up with this, you might want to check this out.

that Cross+Flame seems way cool.

20:25 / 27.09.02

Yes I'm keeping up with it, and yes he's way cool.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

20:41 / 27.09.02

I wonder who Tycho is....

Guilty.

And Tycho has retired.

Great quote: "Open your mind! There's only ONE TRUTH."

This is a world view based on one way of understanding the Bible, which is informed by a feeling about how God wants the Bible understood, which in turn is informed by... yup... the same one way of understanding the Bible. No discussion takes place, only reconfirmation. Issues of translation, of context, of culture - none of these have any traction on the belief-system: anything which doesn't fit is discarded because any person maintaining any contrary position does not share the 'correct' understanding of the Book (or they wouldn't say this awful thing), and therefore doesn't have any credibility.

It's educational to enter that world, and a huge relied to leave it.

21:24 / 27.09.02

I'm gonna invite Cross + Flame along to Barbelith...

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:50 / 28.09.02

Reaaaallly don't.

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