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Adventures in Christian fundamentalism

 
  

Page: 123(4)567

 
 
primaeval soup
17:59 / 29.09.02
These Christians can't be all that conservative -- if they're happy to let someone sign off their every post with a quote from Satan...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:18 / 29.09.02
I'm more interested in seeing how far it can be carried off the other way. How extreme will they let anyone be? If it's pointed out that everyone's a sinner and to be extremely traditionalist... Amos from 'Cold Comfort Farm'.
 
 
grahamwell
10:30 / 30.09.02
Has anyone found a Christian board that is more tolerant or perhaps encourages a broader range of views?

... try Ship of Fools (navigate to the forums). Make sure you check out their Fruitcake Zone when the fundies on Christianity.com are getting you down.
 
 
grant
14:50 / 30.09.02
Ship of Fools! *That's* one of the ones I was thinking about!!

They're pretty cool.

-----------

I was thinking about mentioning Barbelith to Cross+Flame myself, but I'm not sure it'd be his cup of tea. Who knows, though?

-------------

On the Satanic signatures: there's a breed of Christianity that really *needs* Satan and Satanists around.

-----------

janina: I was wondering how far too far could go myself.
 
 
Ganesh
00:05 / 17.10.02
My grubby little pseudo-agnostic paw-prints are all over it now: I'm making friends with ChristianBBS until it begs for mercy...
 
 
grant
01:11 / 17.10.02
I noticed and was quite proud, actually.
(Hey, I know him!)

What's interesting is that some people are actually... thinking, you know. Which isn't what most people would go to a message board like that to do.
 
 
the Fool
03:41 / 17.10.02
I thought it was funny how someone signed off with

"God bless Ganesh"

hehehehe...

Well done though, I just read the 'like murder' thread and your patience, humour and honesty are just what the doctor ordered...
 
 
Ganesh
13:02 / 17.10.02
I think that little bit of 'personal disclosure' was what they needed, really; now they view me more as a real person than a troll. Now I've got 'em thinking about transsexuality...
 
 
grant
15:10 / 17.10.02
Let's hope it doesn't make their brains swell up.....
 
 
Ganesh
13:43 / 25.10.02
Banned again. D'oh! And for quoting the famous Philip Larkin poem:

They fuck you up, your Mum and Dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They give you all the faults they had
and add some new ones just for you.


The Tom Coates-a-like, Fritz, took exception to the "cuss word", even though I'd partly obscured it by asterisking ("f**k") in an attempt to preserve the meaning while avoiding outright offence. Thing is, quoted ol' Uncle Phil in the context of sympathising with someone who was being visited by fussy, over-critical parents. She laughed, and we both moaned about our respective mothers; there was clearly no offence intended or taken.

Gah. I'm pretty sure if I posted a photo of Michaelangelo's 'David' I'd be banned for obscene cock-shots...

Having got heavily involved in some fairly heavy-duty discussions of whether or not condoms are "ineffective" in preventing HIV and homosexual life expectancy, I'd expected some sort of exclusion. I'm surprised that it happened over a poem.

So... what have I gained from this little experience? Well, a lot of my worst prejudices about certain types of Christian have been well and truly confirmed: many on ChristianBBS seem mortally afraid of mere information, of admitting uncertainty, as if a single doubt might cause their entire belief system to unravel. They also have little or no moral difficulty with selectively emphasising or otherwise distorting research data to suit their own agenda, even when do so is irresponsible and frankly dangerous (condoms and HIV). Those with moderating power on ChristianBBS readily support such misinformation, and apparently feel no duty to be truthful or even-handed in their interventions within the relevant discussion threads.

On the other hand, I've made lots of friends there too, and remain in email contact with several. I've given a couple the URL for Barbelith too, and am expecting them along any moment.

Be nice, now...
 
 
Jack Fear
15:14 / 25.10.02
Any friend of Ganesh's is a friend of mine.

And there's plenty of use here who are, to use Gridley's words, "still big fans of Mr. Christ" but aren't afraid to listen to someone else's truth.

Faith is not a substitute for knowledge, darlings. Remember that, and you'll be fine.
 
 
Seth
15:31 / 25.10.02
So is that your final strike, 'Nesh? You finally outta there?

On another note, a number of my best Christian friends have all shown an interest in finding a more liberal, adaptable and syncretist context in which to express their faith. Funily enough, they're all people who had been involved in the old house church that I used to run. Interesting that they should start gravitating back towards me at the same time, a couple of years after that old group ended.

It leaves me in an interesting position. I'm the kind of person who wouldn't mind doing something for these people, to try and draw them into some kind of community, so that they have a circle of friends with whom they can share their faith and ideas. On the other hand, I know from experience that investing that amount of time and energy in people can leave you without a lot of resources for your own creative and spiritual endevours, and doing something formal with these people will inevitably involved "coming out" to the mainstream church at some point along the line.

I'm thinking that the best way of working could be to just be a bit sly and engineer these people to be in the same place at he same time, to re-introduce people and see what happens naturally. That way I'm not immediately perceived as any kind of leader, and I'll hopefully get the same net result....

...oops, sorry. Using Barbelith as my journal again!
 
 
grant
16:33 / 25.10.02
And I've become hopelessly addicted to that place now....

Who do expect to come over here? Or maybe you ought not out 'em till they do themselves.
 
 
grant
16:35 / 25.10.02
Oh, and is this related?
 
 
Ganesh
20:01 / 25.10.02
Exp: I'm not aure, I'm genuinely not sure. On the one hand, the place is strangely addictive despite (or perhaps as a result of) its many, many frustrations. On the other, I'm still extremely pissed off at the reasons for this particular 'banishment' and don't fancy going through the patronising, faintly humiliating 'restoration process' a second time - particularly if Fritz & co. are likely to be looking for any pathetic reason to kick me out again. I can't apply again until the 30th of the month; we'll see.

Grant: Yeah, Hawthorne's post was related. There were five or six threads on the subject, but they've been systematically deleted (with the exhortation to concentrate on more "important" subjects)...
 
 
cusm
21:19 / 25.10.02
I get the impression the prevailing air is not one of discussion and progress of ideas, but rather a fortification of the ideas already presented. I think people come there more to support their faith than to question it, to tell eachother they are right a lot. Seems rather pointless to me, but I admidt I have a diametricly opposed world view to people who seek a limited view of reality.

Still, the temptation to meddle is quite strong. I can see the attraction.
 
 
Pepsi Max
12:37 / 28.10.02
What I find interesting is that there is actually a wide range approaches on the ChristianBB. You get your rabid scripture wavers, your more rationalistic-types, your loveable goofballs. What is noticeable is the tight leash used by the Moderators. Discipline and Punish indeed.

I don't get off on dissing Xtians - they used to make up most of my social circle (and indeed still make up my immediate family).

Exp> Very interested to hear how you get on with "syncretist" version of Xtianity.

"Selling" it to authority figures such as pastors and elders is gonna be tricky. But you may never have to.

One striking thing about modern Xtianity is that it's the one major religion that's largely suppressed its mystical side. Even Islam has the Sufi tradition.

All those wonderful heresies, all gone :-(

I'd like to think that they'll come rushing back into the Xtian mainstream in the future. Bastard hybrids of gnosticism and buddhism, marxism and hindu-catholacism.

Ahhhhh.
 
 
grant
17:41 / 28.10.02
I'm not sure I'd call the Pentecostals "repressed" by the mainstream.
And they're definitely mystics....
 
 
at the scarwash
18:38 / 28.10.02
Pepsi Max Sez:

One striking thing about modern Xtianity is that it's the one major religion that's largely suppressed its mystical side. Even Islam has the Sufi tradition.

I asks:

But what about the Pentacostals, Assemblies of God, Charismatic Catholics, Black Madonna Cultists, Quakers, and those weird raver churches? These are all aspects of the Church that present a definite mystical side (even if I do find glossolalia intensely creepy). And Sacred Harp Singings have been the most intensely meditative musical experiences I've had. And these folk are normal Matlock-watchin' Baptists and Methodists who gather together to commune spiritually with their god in a way I can only call mystical.
 
 
Pepsi Max
08:10 / 29.10.02
Fair cop. Yip, I missed/deliberately dwonplayed yer Pentecostals et al.
Actually, the Quakers are my favorite.

My block with some of the factions mentioned (I was brought up an evangelical baptist) is that most 'mystical' versions of other faiths tend to focus on the individual's path to God. Many of the 'penteccostal' movements emphasize a strictly defined, 'collective' model of belief. "You can have any form of spirituality you want - so long as it's the one we give you!"

Maybe this isn't fair.

So yes, definitely some mysticism still left in Xtianity.
 
 
Ganesh
23:19 / 13.11.02
For Exp(ressionless) and any others whose tenterhooks have been chafing to hear how this saga ended, here's how this saga ended. I did return to ChristianBBS after another period of 'restoration' (in which I had to copy out the Terms of Service and email them to Fritz) and a warning about posting anything related to homosexuality; I did my best to steer clear of obvious red-rag-to-a-bull stuff (like 'How can I make a gay person change?'); I lasted barely one week.

(*Sigh* This really makes me feel like a troll...)

This time, I brought about my downfall by trying to offer support while staying within my new 'gagging' restrictions. A newbie to the board, Confused, wrote (in a thread I now can't find and which has, I think, been deleted) about his/her difficulty coping with the guilt of homosexual desires. Predictably, (s)he received a lot of 'repent or burn' replies. I wrote:

"Confused: You are posting on a conservative Christian message-board which will give you conservative Christian answers. Perhaps this is what you want. If you would like a 'second opinion', feel free to contact me by PM or email."

I thought this was a reasonable way of avoiding problematic discussion on-board while extending a sympathetic ear off-board - the ol' psychiatric urge, I guess.

Mistake. A snotty email from Fritz and I was immediately barred again - permanently. Apparently, I was "soliciting" for someone "wanting to get out of homosexuality" to contact me. Fritz had "addressed the issue" with his rather shadowy "superiors" and was kicking me out for good - without even telling me which TOC I'd notionally violated!

Confused didn't contact me and I didn't make any attempt to contact him/her. Ironically, in his/her particular case, I really don't think I'd have advocated a strongly 'pro-homo' stance anyway - the individual seemed too conflicted and self-lacerating for that - merely a softer, more reflective line than they were getting from the usual CBBS worthies.

Although I'm naturally annoyed at the unfairness of my expulsion (hundreds of other posters have invited each other to continue discussion off-board) I'm not as surprised as I was the last time (every communication from Fritz made my Damoclean situation painfully obvious, and my eventual exclusion was a certainty) and consequently not as angry. Also, I had time to get involved in some decent debates and ask some good meaty questions, and there's not the same sense of being stopped mid-sentence.

So... although I certainly made friends there, my abiding impression has been of narrow, fearful paranoia - on the part of those running the place more than anyone else. There seems to be a mortal terror of the possibility of anyone confronting information that's not officially processed and 'massaged' by the religious far-right; even neutral research findings (on the previously-linked 'Condoms & HIV' and 'Homosexual Life Expectancy' threads) must be limited - and God forbid someone suggests that the "homosexual lifestyle" might not automatically end in disease and premature death...

In a way, that crippling defensiveness disappointed me more than the 'fire & brimstone' stuff: I found it incredibly difficult to summon any respect for a faith so apparently unable to address even mildly uncomfortable concepts that it could only stick its metaphorical fingers in its ears and chant Leviticus...

Anyway, I think my 'Christian Experiment' has run its course - as brief flirtations go, it was no tit-claw encounter - and I'll not be heading back. I've definitely got the taste for spiritual tourism, though, and may soon be sunning myself on a Buddhist message-board near you...
 
 
Seth
00:06 / 14.11.02
Prefaced with the disclaimer that I'm obviously not out to convert anyone, but surely "experimenting" with Christians who want to listen to you would be a better and more rewarding way of talking about the faith issues that matter to you?
 
 
the Fool
02:58 / 14.11.02
Prefaced with the disclaimer that I'm obviously not out to convert anyone, but surely "experimenting" with Christians who want to listen to you would be a better and more rewarding way of talking about the faith issues that matter to you?

mmm... see I've got a bit addicted to that site recently as well. And yes it would be nice to have people actually listen rather than think and post on automatic but their is something infuriating about willful ignorance which I don't seem to be able to leave alone at the moment.

When I see some of the posts I just see red I guess, or when I see a poster get shouted down and cut off when they post intelligent or insightful comments. I feel I have to respond.

But its a brick wall, I know. And I really am just banging my head against it. I keep thinking if I compose my thoughts eloquently enough I might effect change. I guess I am being very naive...
 
 
Ganesh
04:40 / 14.11.02
Expressionless: I was asked repeatedly 'why are you posting here?' (usually in a 'this is a local board for local people' kind of way when I'd expressed disagreement with someone) and generally said something along those lines. Short of putting 'Christian' in the appropriate box in my Profile (which would've seemed dishonest) I'm not sure how else I couldve effectively peddled that line.

In the case which led to my being excluded, I don't think it was potential conversion to my 'fuzzy agnosticism' which worried Fritz but the hackneyed old anxiety that I was seeking to 'recruit' a fellow homosexual.

Certainly, if anyone else is thinking of posting on ChristianBBS, I'd encourage them to play down any sexuality other than celibate-before-marriage hetero. Declaring anything else is likely - even more than non-Christianity - to mark one as an 'undesirable'...
 
 
grant
14:58 / 14.11.02
I'm awaiting my second warning with bated breath. This time, for posting links to the heathen unsaved, rather than any of that icky sex stuff.

The homosexuality threads keep sprouting anew - latest one from a student at an all-girls-school.

It really *is* a paranoid administration....
 
 
grant
14:59 / 14.11.02
Oh, and Fool - who *are* you on there? PM me if you like.
 
 
Ganesh
15:09 / 14.11.02
Warnings, eh? With me, the warnings had a distinct 'back-dated' quality and tended to take place after I'd been banned...
 
 
grant
15:31 / 14.11.02
I have a hunch the administrative actions only happen after two or three people hit that "violation" button at the bottom of the message, but I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure the admins don't read the whole site.

Unlike the enlightened, committed admins here on Barbelith....
 
 
The Strobe
17:32 / 14.11.02
It's been really interesting reading your posts and responses to your 'experiment', Ganesh, especially the last one you link, where it's clear that there are members of the ChristianBBS who enjoyed your company and found it interesting. Sod religion, simply from an online-community perspective, there's nothing more depressing than watching a group exclude one of their more interesting and erudite posters. More fool them.

Having had a bit more of a browse around the board in the more interesting threads, and avoiding scripture-quotation-in-place-of-real-thought, I've come to one very clear conclusion about the whole place: Fritz appears to be a deeply dislikable person. He kills threads the moment they're going out of control (cf: "How Can I Change A Gay Person": let's discuss this my way. No! You can't say that! Thread locked), and is remarkably intolerant for someone who's meant to be part of one of the more tolerant religions in the world. (I'd considered describing CBBS as a "dictatorship", but I think I ought to stay away from that metaphor).

And that made the whole thing, reading the site - not just the threads you were asking questions in, but pretty much anything by the posters I'd consider "intelligent" (who were generally not listened to) really all a bit depressing. I'd consider myself to have some form of Christian belief, if not entire or all-consuming (and certainly not all-understood), as I mentioned in one of the more difficult posts I've ever made on this board. I didn't see any similarity to most of the people there (partly because the last thing I want to do is discuss my faith, it's a private thing... but partly because so many of them seemed so robotic and deaf to comment). It may not have been the best Christian board to 'experiment' with, but that doesn't excuse the bigoted opinion and draconian rule there. As an online "community", it looks about as friendly as a fucking boot camp. And I didn't see many christian virtues being espoused; just scripture-quotation and lack of reasoning, mainly. As I said: depressing. Now even less sure in my faith, because I'm definitely not "like that".

Do post on your next journeys as a spiritual tourist, though, because it's been MOST interesting. Let's hope not all religious boards are quite as grim...
 
 
Seth
19:40 / 14.11.02
Sorry if my post was unclear, 'Nesh. I meant if you're interested in this stuff then why don't you talk to people who will give honest and intelligent answers to what you have to ask? I've not had time to follow much of the stuff you posted to the site, but from everything you've said it seems like there were only a couple of people who were able to meet you halfway...
 
 
Ganesh
20:19 / 14.11.02
Ahh, I see what y'mean. Well, I didn't really expect to become quite as gripped by the place in such a short space of time - and I must admit that there was a certain novelty in arguing with people whose views originated from such an unfamiliar part of the religious spectrum. I still think I actually did manage to have the occasional meaty philosophical discussion there (the thread about subjective/objective 'truth', for example, was good fun) and several posters were willing to meet me halfway. That's one of my major gripes, really: ChristianBBS's moderation doesn't seem to reflect the attitude of its posters...

I know what you mean, though; I have registered with Ship of Fools and am spending a while lurking there before starting to post.
 
 
grant
20:49 / 14.11.02
Man, just now they got hit with a major troll - logged in as "Osama bin Laden" and started creating new topics at a hectic pace, saying they will only be released once the demands have been met.

%Hoo! The comedy!%
 
 
Ganesh
20:56 / 14.11.02
Hahahahahahahhh! I'm afraid I really am finding that rather funny; bet it's one of our F2B chums! Already de-registered - but I'm sure he'll be back...
 
 
Cherry Bomb
20:57 / 14.11.02
Aaargh! Why can't *i* get in! Registered as CherryMcB ages ago and I NEED to get into that abortion discussion!!!
 
 
Ganesh
21:08 / 14.11.02
Hmm... all attempts to access ChristianBBS now result in Internal Server Errors...
 
  

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