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Adventures in Christian fundamentalism

  
  

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Ganesh
22:27 / 19.09.02
As mentioned on the 'Homosexuality and the Bible' thread, I've recently been trying the Christianity.com bulletin board for size - partly because I started to get interested in the homosexuality debate through arguing with my religious aunt, and partly because Fade To Black briefly became fascinated with that particular board, and started registering and posting trollsome messages.

My intention wasn't to be a troll. I was genuinely interested in checking out a range of Christian takes on homosexuality and, expecting such a mainstream-sounding URL to reflect a broad spectrum, was disappointed to find it extremely hard-line. These guys believe rigidly in the Bible as the Word of God, abortion equals murder, masturbation is sinful, Eminem is evil and homosexuality - whether one indulges in "homosexual acts", "homosexual lifestyle" or merely "homosexual lust" - is The Worst A Man Can Get.

I started off trying to establish what people actually meant by the above terms: if the mere existence of same-sex desire was itself as heinous as murder, how was it possible to 'love the sinner, hate the sin'? What was a "homosexual lifestyle"? My threads were deleted and I was sent a rather vague warning not to indulge in "very questionable" posting.

Becoming ever more trollsome, I started a thread asking whether rubber/leather fetishism was inherently sinful. They weren't sure, but they were sure they didn't want to read about it. That thread went the way of all flesh too.

Finally, I managed to pitch my question at a level which didn't encourage instant moderator deletion (by the unintentionally amusingly-named 'Jesussheep' and 'Precious Queen'). The results, with the odd exception, were disappointing. Even the most liberal contributor there started with the assumption that homosexuality was a 'sin' which required some pretty heavy-duty repentin'...

My relatively unapologetic stance seemed to throw them into something of a tiz, and before long their Tom Coates equivalent, 'Fritz', redrafted an official line on discussing poovery. Niiice.

Anyway, I'm really not sure what, if anything, I learned from any of this. What it feels like being a troll, I guess. And that there are limits to my 'Mr Reasonable' masochism...

Anybody else done this?
 
 
cyclepathGIRL
22:31 / 19.09.02
Whats a troll?
 
 
Ganesh
22:34 / 19.09.02
Someone who thrives on negative online feedback and posts accordingly. Check out some of the Policy threads.
 
 
telyn
22:41 / 19.09.02
I have a housemate who specifically goes along to christian events just to argue with the christians there. I generally don't bother, but I do see why he does it (often for the free pizza, but mostly the arguing).

If he was in cyberspace he would be trolling, but because he is physically talking to them, the people he speaks with can see from his body language that he is not necessarily being offensive. I think that you do have to carefully 'pitch' your question, in order not to shock people so much you get a blanket 'that's bad' response. I think that it is much easier to ask the right question when you have the person in front of you, it's very hard to gauge with just text.
 
 
Ganesh
22:46 / 19.09.02
Well, I'm not an atheist and I don't particularly get off on arguing with them. It's compromise I like. Not a lot of that on ChristianBBS, sadly; I think they see it as a weakness rather than a strength.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:57 / 19.09.02
Referring to the topic abstract rather than the actual questions - I suppose you were acting as a troll - though reading your comments on that board they didn't come across as troll-like. When you disagree with a certain ethic that a board pushes I guess you start to reestablish the boundaries a bit, unfortunately this involves breaking the rules. Your behaviour hasn't been in any way unreasonable and you never insulted anyone. I didn't witness any stupid and overly-provocative questions, everything was polite and calm, a very nice troll. Shame Barbelith trolls aren't so funky.
 
 
telyn
22:57 / 19.09.02
That is part of the any religion. I don't think Christians find arguing weak, but rather doubting weak. If you have an omnipotent God then why argue with him? Unfortunately, to discuss something religious is to admit the possibility that the scripture may be wrong, and therefore you may lack faith in God. I can understand that position, but I don't think it's a good way to live.
 
 
Ganesh
23:00 / 19.09.02
At the risk of sounding narcissistic, the present 'guidelines' weren't quite as focussed when I started posting; ChristianBBS has actually reshaped itself around me, becoming more 'officially' anti-homosexual, apparently in response to my posts. Although there are one or two other gay/bi people on the board, they tended to be a little more apologist than myself. Even my relatively mild challenge was seen as a threat...
 
 
000
23:04 / 19.09.02
Ganesh: "It's compromise I like."

OMG, that's a shocker.

Seriously, why would you want Christian fundamentalists (or whatever) to agree just a little bit with you?
 
 
Ganesh
23:06 / 19.09.02
Because many of them are essentially good people. I do agree, though, that at times my liking for compromise borders on martyrdom; if nothing else, my dabblings with ChristianBBS have thrown that little fetish into focus...
 
 
the Fool
23:06 / 19.09.02
Shame Barbelith trolls aren't so funky

They are! But only the homegrown ones we send to the world. The ones we contract from elsewhere are smeared with unfunk® and smell of poo...
 
 
telyn
23:10 / 19.09.02
That's not really a good sign when people tighten their defences against an idea so much. They really must be afraid of it.

On a lighter note, I used to sing for a cathedral choir and the choir master was as camp as is possible (very lovely man). I know from reputable sources that he was gay, but still maintained his position within the catholic cathedral. Either the clergy hadn't noticed (unlikely) or just turned a blind eye to someone who was valuable to them. Half the choir were in the same position, all with special dispensation.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:11 / 19.09.02
Well I think you should be proud of yourself, you've managed to change a whole board, you have true internet fame now.
 
 
Ganesh
23:13 / 19.09.02
That's the thing, Harmony: the few Christians I know are, to a (wo)man, lovely people who have absolutely no problem with ZoCher and I being screaming homosexualists. I expected some hardliners on ChristianBBS, but I guess I expected a few more moderate humanitarians...
 
 
Ganesh
23:14 / 19.09.02
Changing an entire board, eh? That's me up there with Andy C...

*contemplates running a warm bath and opening veins*
 
 
Hieronymus
23:19 / 19.09.02
Actually Ganesh, you visited a nexus of hardliners. I thought I recognized the Christianity.com domain as being connected somehow to Pat Robertson's 700 Club and his other financial titan, The Christian Broadcasting Network. Looks like I was partly right.
 
 
Ganesh
23:22 / 19.09.02
Brrr. Now I feel dirty...
 
 
telyn
23:23 / 19.09.02
I think it may be the general background of the people who post there (rather than the specific religion) that affects how open they are to discussion. Near me there are a large number of christian events that are designed for discussion, even if the people running them will maintain their same position.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:26 / 19.09.02
I doubt you're quite as persistent as Andrew.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:28 / 19.09.02
Oh and Harmony - are you talking about where we live or where you live because if it's where we live I totally disagree.
 
 
telyn
23:29 / 19.09.02
Birmingham, and the uni most specifically. I would bet on their being members from near us that were on the christian discussion board...
 
 
paw
23:33 / 19.09.02
as someone who used to e-mail a fundamentalist for years i know from experience that you shouldn't have bothered trying to communicate your views. full stop. those type of people are the biblical borg. no matter what you throw at them they just keep coming back at you with scripture and generally in my experience narrow minded thought. resistance is futile.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:36 / 19.09.02
Biblical borg, my new pet phrase.

Phew... I was worried you actually thought our christians were normal, reasonable people instead of 'let's advertise our religion with little fishies and try to convert the secondary school kids' types.
 
 
Seth
23:49 / 19.09.02
This thread is making me very sad.

I lack the energy to lend my voice to the discussion on that site, but I will. Over the weekend, or early next week.

Why do I feel like apologising to everyone over this?
 
 
Ganesh
23:52 / 19.09.02
Don't be silly, Exp; you have absolutely nothing to apologise for. I guess I should've looked for a more 'representative sampling' of Christian denominations. I sort of assumed there'd be at least some there like yourself.

Oddly enough, I didn't start any discussions of the Tarot...
 
 
Ganesh
23:55 / 19.09.02
Your apologising for being Christian would make about as much sense as my apologising for being gay...
 
 
Seth
00:00 / 20.09.02
I know, 'Nesh. It's just been a long and lonely week, and I'm feeling a bit down and over-sensetive. Plus it upsets me to read so many people posting stuff in that token trendy evangelical manner. It grates so bad, especially when you've got as much experience of people like that as I have.
 
 
Ganesh
00:08 / 20.09.02
I know what you mean. I've had a trying week too, and it was a mistake to start playing around on that sort of board at this particular time; I've been slightly vulnerable to feeling shit about myself and, although I know it's all sound and fury, the stuff on ChristianBBS didn't help. The experience was probably a useful one, though.

Not sure if I mentioned I was actually banned after less than twenty-four hours! I think it was the 'Is Fetishism Sinful' thread that did it. They have a faintly humiliating 'restoration procedure' which involves having to copy out the relevant Terms of Service by email to 'Fritz' (shades of schooldays detention and lines) and explain one's misdemeanours. By the time I'd been 'returned to the community' (which sounds like what I do), they'd altered their official guidelines to make me feel even more unwelcome - so I buggered off.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:11 / 20.09.02
It isn't your place to apologise, I know plenty of perfectly lovely Christians, unfortunately there are some people who give the nice ones a bad name.

Me and Harmony went to school in the same area, people would come in at least once a term, try to convert us and then disappear again. They give religion a bad name and it's an unfortunate side effect that those who actually have a reasonable and valid belief in something are burnt in the process. That kind of thing actually reduces the temptation to be a Christian rather than welcoming people in.

So don't you feel bad about it all exp, we'd rather have your religion any day.
 
 
paw
00:13 / 20.09.02
the response to your rubber thread was very funny, what with their condemnation of the 'worldly' nature of your discussion.
 
 
Ganesh
00:17 / 20.09.02
It's not still up there somewhere, is it? I assumed they'd deleted it in its entirety.
 
 
Seth
00:17 / 20.09.02
Hmmm.

Self-examination time. Something that I've not shared with anyone on Barbelith is that there aren't any Christians who know exactly how... unorthodox I'm becoming. They pretty much all acknowledge that I have a very different outlook, but I've deliberately kept a lot of what I've been going through secret from them... I guess to get myself on a firmer footing before I start to talk about things openly.

Is this wrong? I know that I'm bound for some conflicts, and I know the time is coming soon when I may have to face those battles. This is the kind of thing that could have serious repercussions...
 
 
Ganesh
00:19 / 20.09.02
If ChristianBBS represents the orthodoxy, then I'd say it's good to be unorthodox. Do you mean the more esoteric magic-related stuff, Exp? I'm really interested in this...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
00:22 / 20.09.02
In response to the question posed in the abstract: of course not. You were putting forward legitimate issues for discussion. I was wondering if your topics were getting deleted partly because you'd been traced back to F2B - we've seen here how someone can garner a negative reaction simply because of their presence on other boards.

That would have been preferable to the real reason. The way that the management have decided to stamp out the possibility of ever discussing the issue again is disgraceful. But, to be honest, I'm not entirely certain what you were expecting to achieve, outside of an uneasy compromise or a brick wall/head interface.
 
 
Seth
00:29 / 20.09.02
Yeah, predominantly the magick related stuff... that and the fact that I read the Bible as a very different book to them these days. I don't take all of it as literal truth, which will mean that some of my friends will perceive me to be a threat to them. It may well mean losing a couple of friends, and I may well not be able to play drums in church any more. Which is funny, really, because ecstatic experience in church worship is one of the things that made me identify with shamanism so much. I've got to be one of the only people who got into the occult through church

The stuff which I'm engaged in now I see as just a logical extension of my upbringing in a Charismatic Church. I've been bought up to practise the spiritual gifts, I've always had divinatory/prophetic insights into people and situations, there's the aforementioned ecstatic experiences, visions and dreams, etc. I'm just taking my research into this stuff a lot further than most Christians, and a lot of them would have major problems with me.
 
  

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