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Watchmen movie news

 
  

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Neon Snake
08:25 / 19.03.09
Manhattan is probably out of the picture, for a start, but couldn't one or both of the superpowers take out Karnak and Ozymandias pretty quickly if they both acknowledged him as a mutual enemy?

I think that's fair. One could, I suppose, put together an argument around him being the world's smartest man, and could therefore potentially disappear into a series of mountains and caves in Afghanistan, periodically reappearing on videotape to reissue his threats whilst wearing a Dr. Manhattan mask. But still.

It's more that in the comic, the squid attack was not reproducible - there was no ongoing threat, it wasn't going to happen again. The whole thing was a scam. The risk was that Rorshach, in exposing this, wipes out all of the reasons to band together and unite against a common threat - since the threat doesn't exist.

But in the film, the threat still exists. It doesn't matter if it's Veidt or if it's Manhattan (and note that Manhattan doesn't vocalise his intent to leave Earth until after splattering Rorshach across the snow) - the threat is still real - it's not an unrepeatable scam.

Veidt really can take out entire cities; Rorshach grassing him up doesn't remove the threat and reveal that they've been tricked, only that they've been tricked into thinking it was Manhattan.
Rorshach isn't putting the risk of nuclear destruction back on the table by exposing Veidt, he's just shifting the blame. The risk to the superpowers is still there; they still dare not attack each other, for fear of what Veidt will do to them.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:38 / 19.03.09
Those are fair points. I was just wondering as a side-line why Manhattan actually killed Rorschach. It marks a shift in taking responsibility, compared to his standing by while Comedian shoots the Vietnamese woman, and this is actually the reverse of what we'd expect, as Manhattan has become more distanced from and disillusioned with humanity since Vietnam ~ more likely, you would think, to just think of it as none of his concern.

Based on what Manhattan actually says of human behaviour during the later chapters, whether Rorschach returns to New York and exposes Veidt or not is just another faintly interesting pattern on the earth ~ surely no more pressing to Manhattan than whether a bunch of red ants beat a bunch of black ants in a backyard.

Or has he come to value human life, through his encounter with Laurie on Mars, to the extent that he will now weigh up the loss of x million over the loss of x billion, and decide he has to play a role to ensure it's the former, not the latter?

Moreover... would Rorschach really have made it back? Wouldn't it have been just as appropriate to let him die in the snow, on his own terms?
 
 
_pin
10:50 / 19.03.09
Wasn't he going to nick Archie, which has been defrosting itself the whole time, and whose basic controls he must know by now?

And Manhattan seems to appreciate how difficult Veidt's Godhood is and respect the work he's put in. He's buggering off to do the same thing himself in another universe, after all.
 
 
Neon Snake
11:09 / 19.03.09
I think you're right in saying that it does mark a shift in responsibility, post the Mars encounter with Laurie. I think we're mean't to believe that he now sees the miracle in human life; but is still "big-picture" enough to weigh millions in favour of billions.

Why does he kill Rorshach? Good question. Arguably, he'd never have made it back, and would have died. Possibly, he's enough of a tenacious little shit to have made it back to Archie and got back to New York. I have difficulty in believing that, but maybe that's what we're mean't to believe.

The ending, even ignoring squid vs Manhattan, is markedly different in other ways too.

I went to see it with my wife, who has never read the comic, and I was careful not to spoil anything; I was curious to get her reaction and see how it contrasted with mine. Firstly, she turned to me very early on and asked if Ozy was behind everything - his villain-ness was telegraphed from the start.

The other difference was that the big question posed by the book (Would you expose the plot? Or cover it up? Was Veidt right or wrong?) wasn't posed by the film - it never occured to her until I asked her. And she came down heavily on the side of "it was wrong".

I think the film paints Veidt very much as a "baddie". He's arrogant, emotionless, deceptive, a killer, represents corporate America and is possibly a gay paedophile. That's a lot of boxes ticked.

Conversely, Rorshach is painted much more as a "goodie". There are some troubling moments, sure, like his disdain for intellectuals and liberals; but hey! He's no more troubling than Dirty Harry.
And the New Frontiersman isn't represented as a rightwing rag as overtly as in the comic, so you don't get that angle. There's the comment about Silhouette's "indecent lifestyle", but it's buried early on and nowhere near as overt as "possibly homosexual. must investigate further".

And then Dan is also painted as a goodguy hero - he doesn't go along with the scheme immediately, whereas he does in the book. Instead, he is clearly troubled, and then he proceeds to give Veidt a good smack round the chops after he kills Rorshach. Because that's what the good guy does, right? He still punches the villain. And Veidt, being on the receiving end of the punch, is therefore clearly the villain - and is therefore wrong in whatever actions he has taken. We then see ground zero, with Veidt Enterprises helping to rebuild - profitting from the damage, even. Y'know, like corporations who are helping to rebuild Iraq ("DO YOU SEE??" etc etc)

So, we end up with quite clear lines drawn between good and bad in the film, which serves to remove the "question" and the moral ambiguity from the ending, which I think is a shame.
 
 
_pin
12:10 / 19.03.09
Does Veidt kill Rorschach? I don't think I was paying a lot of attention in the cinema, at that point, but in the comic I always thought Manhattan did it off his own back. Because he's super big picture now.

I don't think you can quote Moore's intentions with Rorschach as primary sources for what we're meant to think about him. I seem to remember a comparison between his Miracleman and Morrison's All-Star Superman, about how they clearly have different opinions about what superheroes are and can be like, and I don't think I take a view that's as unremittingly negative as he does on the matter. Plus, as AG says, he does seem to kind of enjoy Rorschach.

I've sat through very circular and boring conversations on the off-topic I'm about to go down, but Michael Haneke's Funny Games seems instructive. Is it possible to make art that is, formally, something you personally hate? How many films about the awfulness of violence, that consist entirely of filmed violence, can you make?

I've always attributed part of his antipathy towards filming Watchmen with a general dislike for the kinds of people who like the Watchmen as people. Can you film Rorschach's quest without making Rorschach a bit likeable? Probably not. Can you film Vedit plotting murder without making him sound like an Englishman eating a Germanman? Apparently, again, not.

I think there's also a problem with trying to make a single structured thing, like a film, out of something that is both, A: serialised, and B: heavy with allusions to other characters and people you've known before. Vedit is more than a murderer, and Rorschach more than (possibly, really, less) a driven crusader, but they're boiled down to flat moral choices.

Plus, you know, people are just meant to dislike the whole thing. You can't root for anyone, they're all awful, really. In that respect, I think Snyder may have been a very poor choice to helm this. He accurately recreated things people weren't meant to want to see.
 
 
deja_vroom
12:37 / 19.03.09
It seems people are having insane amounts of fun recreating panels from the comic with frames from the movie.

Barbelith, this is a call to arms, Barbelith.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
12:45 / 19.03.09
Wow! It's like those European Photo-Novellas!

Snyder's storyboarding was bang on. From a technical standpoint, he got so many of his shots to match the comic perfectly. He did have a passion and love for the project even if he didn't "Get" the material in the same ways as a lot of the fans would have wished.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:46 / 19.03.09
I think the film paints Veidt very much as a "baddie". He's arrogant, emotionless, deceptive, a killer, represents corporate America and is possibly a gay paedophile. That's a lot of boxes ticked.


Ehh... "gay" isn't a box to tick for "baddie", unless the viewer is homophobic.
 
 
deja_vroom
12:48 / 19.03.09
My previous post was a call to arms, Barbelith.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:53 / 19.03.09
Also have to wonder why Manhattan, in the comic, lies to Veidt and tells him it's highly unlikely Rorschach will reach civilisation. He's a total pedant. Usually he's absolutely and precisely accurate ("What's up, doc?" / "Up is a relative concept. It has no intrinsic value").
 
 
Neon Snake
12:53 / 19.03.09
Ehh... "gay" isn't a box to tick for "baddie", unless the viewer is homophobic.

Not for you. Not for me. Nor, I would hope, for most people who would come across this thread.

For Snyder? Maybe. I don't really know.
For a lot of people who watch the film, when combined with "paedophile"? Yes.

I'm struggling to understand why Snyder made the choice to put that folder on Veidt's disk, and to remove Rorshach's "possibly homosexual" line. Given the rest of the "look see! he's a baddie!" nudges, I can't help but think that Snyder intends it to be viewed as something else unpleasant about him.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:08 / 19.03.09
Yeah, I see what you're getting at. Especially as 300 came in for a share of criticism about its representation of the key villain as effeminate, as I remember. As I've noted above, "boys" shouldn't automatically signal that a man is into children, but I imagine a lot of people would read it that way, and maybe that was the intention.

But hey, don't forget Ozymandias also seemed coded as vaguely German.
 
 
Neon Snake
13:44 / 19.03.09
*nods*

He also left the "boy-lovers" line in 300. Again, one could argue that he was merely being faithful to the source. Or...he could have just removed it, and stuck his middle finger up at the literally tens of people who would have cried foul PC-related play.

And definitely, "boys" could and probably often does mean "men over 18" when encountered in life, but in a fictional setting, it would be easier to just put "men", and it would still let us know that ooh, the little tyke has a porn stash, without leading us down the uncomfortable route of "...boys? Like, under-age boys? Is that what we're talking about?"
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:46 / 19.03.09
I don't know if a folder called "Men" would have had the same immediate connotation of a personal sex-stuff file that Snyder clearly wanted. Maybe "Hot Men XXX". "Men to Watch." "Man Watch." Or something.
 
 
Neon Snake
13:51 / 19.03.09
"H@WT XXX M3N", possibly, just to really nail it down that we're not talking about the 20 top captains of industry.
 
 
CameronStewart
14:59 / 19.03.09
I listened to an interview with the screenwriters a few days ago and they acknowledge that it was a decision to make Veidt more overtly gay in the film, and they mention the "Boys" folder on the computer, but they really don't sound like they were suggesting he was into little kids. Maybe that's how it comes across to some but I don't believe that they were expressly intending that.

(Also discussed were all the changes to the story the studio wanted - cut half the main characters, focus only on Nite Owl or Rorschach, cut all the flashbacks, make Dan more heroic and less of an impotent loser, cut Mars, kill Ozymandias before he can execute the plan...generally try to make it into another Batman movie. Hayter says he was explicitly told that they wanted to exploit the name and fanbase but cared little else for the story.)


I went and saw the film a second time and this time made every attempt to separate it from the book. I didn't focus on what wasn't there, and instead paid attention to what was, and I enjoyed it even more this time. My companions hadn't read the book and they both enjoyed it a lot, and leaving the theatre we overheard several conversations going on about the moral ambiguity of Veidt's plan. So it is working for some people...
 
 
Neon Snake
15:10 / 19.03.09
My wife certainly enjoyed the film, Cameron, benefitting no doubt from seeing what it actually was, rather than rueing what it could have been.

The moral ambiguity of the plan is intact - kill a million, save a billion - what's missing is the overt questioning your own views that the book made you do. I'd pondered the why's of that for a while, since all the beats are there, in the film, it just doesn't ask you the question.

Interesting points on the studio changes. I'd say they actually got some of them - Dan more heroic certainly. And I wonder what prompted them to make Veidt more overtly gay (was he gay in the comic? I got no impression that he was, other than Rorshach *thought so*). Why bother? I'm left slightly uneasy by the decision, as if it wasn't done with the noblest of intentions.

Which could be and probably/hopefully is absolute bollocks, but even so.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:38 / 19.03.09
There are various "clues" (many of them slightly ludicrous) to Veidt's gayness, if you want to read them that way ~ I have seen arguments on other discussion boards that, for instance:

- he wears purple
- he looks well-groomed
- he only has male servants
- the male servants stress to the reporter that Veidt never treats women badly
- he consoles Nelson after the Crimebusters meeting
- erm that's about it
 
 
deja_vroom
15:51 / 19.03.09
You forgot "single man with a cat".
 
 
Neon Snake
15:52 / 19.03.09
So, he's quite a nice bloke, takes care of himself, and dresses well?

Clearly, one of teh gheys.

Essentially, then, it's the kind of things that lead people like Rorshach to conclude that a fella is gay? Not being manly enough, that sort of thing?

Evidently, though, enough to lead Snyder to the same conclusion.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
16:01 / 19.03.09
You forgot "single man with a cat".

I don't know if you read the same website as me, but shockingly, this was part of the "evidence".

- He idolizes Alexander.
- He "consoles" Captain Metropolis after the Crimebusters meeting.
- His servants say "he does not do bad things to women" (because he's not interested in them at all?).
- He speculates about his products being pitched at the gay market.
- He investigates Hooded Justice's disappearance, deepening his grudge with Blake.


Frankly, I don't care but there is a lot of Evidence suggesting he's gay.
+ Female servant in public, Male servants in private
+ Friends with Bowie, VP, etc...
+ Um... purple a plenty purple galore. (true, it is a regal color, but still)
+ Notice how this man's 'best friend' is a cat, not a dog (that's a huge stretch, I know) but cats are generally associated with women while dog's are more "manly")
+ Worshiping Alexander, a masculine guy who was bi
+ The worlds smartest, and I think richest, man and he doesn't have a girlfriend?
+ I don't know, he just always seemed kind of effeminate, like how he dresses, not even the color, but he's always nicely dressed, even fashionably dressed.
 
 
deja_vroom
16:11 / 19.03.09
No, I hadn't, but I found it funny that he could fit into that stereotype, like a bizarre red herring written by Moore which was more like a joke or a wink at that concept.

(I'm just a bit pissed that the movie needlessly fiddled with a character that was perfect the way it was originally - more asexual than anything else (Plutarch tells us, by the way, that Alexander despised relations based merely on carnal desire - not to say he didn't succumb to the temptation, but, erm... "who can judge such things?").

But really, people, just what is the deal with that Prince Adam?
 
 
Mystery Gypt
18:55 / 19.03.09
re: The interview Cameron references -

To Hayter's credit, the studios he is talking about in that interview are the studios that he LEFT because that's what they wanted, with these notes taking place over the DECADE or so he had been developing the script. Remember, "the studios" are not one single comic-destroying voice but a set of wholly separate entities who had completely different points of view about how to adapt the material. Hayter and producer Lloyd Levin had a great deal that allowed them to take the property with them if they had a creative disagreement with the studio. Without this unusual agreement, we probably never would have seen a Watchmen movie.

btw, I assume the interview Cameron is referencing is from the Creative Screenwriting Podcast - it's a totally thorough hour + forty five minute discussion, with many interesting points. There's a cool part where Hayter talks about his series of helpful phonecalls with Alan Moore and the bone-headed move he pulled on the last call. There is also a lot of explanation on the history of the new ending, where that came from, how it developed, and what other whacky concepts they had tried out in between. It's a fascinating chronicle about the way ideas work in a screenwriting process.

I'd highly recommend the interview and also the series as a whole - Jeff Goldsmith runs a really fun show. I don't know how to link directly to the iTunes podcast page but here's the webpage that gets you there: Creative Screenwriting
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:15 / 19.03.09
Crikey.

I always took Adrian as a skit on the likes of Arnie S; a European guy arriving in America with a plan for self-improvement that, rightly or wrongly, works, but then spirals out of control.

It seems ridiculous that the character's sexuality is an issue - Rorscach's aside, erm, aside, it isn't in the comic, so it shouldn't be in the film.

I'd have cast a young-ish Patrick Swayze in the role; possibly, there aren't enough square-jawed forty-something actors in Hollywood at the moment (except in porn, perhaps) so they had to go for the euro-trash look, but it still feels like a mistake.
 
 
CameronStewart
20:54 / 19.03.09
Remember, "the studios" are not one single comic-destroying voice but a set of wholly separate entities who had completely different points of view about how to adapt the material.

Except that Hayter and Tse mention that the notes from all the various studios that were involved over the years were all fairly consistent...

Thanks for posting the link to that podcast, I neglected to do so.
 
 
CameronStewart
20:56 / 19.03.09
To Hayter's credit, the studios he is talking about in that interview are the studios that he LEFT because that's what they wanted,

Right, that's what I was getting at. It's just a further exploration of the idea that whatever the problems are in the final film, it could have turned out far, far worse.
 
 
Neon Snake
07:43 / 20.03.09
It certainly could have turned out a lot worse, Cameron. There are an awful lot of things to like about the film - the sets are wonderful, so are the effects, *most* of the dialogue comes across and is delivered well, and I can only imagine what it must be like for the real diehard fans to see some of those scenes on the big screen. When it works, it must be bloody amazing.
Most of the people I know who have seen it have enjoyed it, fans and non-fans alike.

But whereas it's certainly not as bad as it could have been, I don't think it's "the least bad" it could have been either. I think it definitely could have been better, and indeed should have been;

When we're putting it up as the adaptation of "The Greatest Graphic Novel In History Ever!!!11one!!!", I wonder how many non-comic people are going to walk out of the cinema and think "Fuck yeah, I need to read the comic. Clearly, they're not just for kids, and are capable of tackling complex themes just like a Real Book. No, they can be adult in a way that isn't just slo-mo kicksploding and characters getting zem out for the ladz."
 
 
deja_vroom
11:34 / 20.03.09
What about Blake? His psychological profile seems rather rickety considering that he seemed like the kind of man who would jump at the opportunity to pilot the Enola Gay, and yet finding out about Veidt's plan sent him over the edge. What is it, the man who "shot kids in 'Nam" had some sort of "death toll upper limit" where 3 million deaths (as in the comic) or 15 million (as in the movie) was just too much? He laughed at some atrocious stuff back in the day - why couldn't he laugh at Veidt's plan as well?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
12:33 / 20.03.09
I think that Blake didn't mind killing an enemy. He justified his actions because he believed that it was for the greater good of his country. Not to mention that he enjoyed it because he's a sicko. Still, he's a sicko with permission and would probably not kill without being given a reason. Above all, he was a patriot who killed for ideals he believed in.

Veidt's plan is just too indiscriminate for him: Innocent people would die in the millions along with “enemies”. Americans along with “Commies”. In Blake’s pretty black and white world, Veidt’s plan is too big, too morally grey for him to comprehend. The fact that many of the victims would be people who he committed horrendous crimes to (in his mind) protect, was too large a disconnect for him to overcome.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
13:10 / 20.03.09
Above all, he was a patriot who killed for ideals he believed in.

or because some nagging vietnamese woman wanted him to be responsible for the child he'd fathered.
 
 
electric monk
13:17 / 20.03.09
Thank you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:18 / 20.03.09
Not exactly - he killed her because she had stabbed him in the face with a broken bottle. Still a disproportionate response, and he certainly doesn't have a problem killing civilians, though - he killed Kennedy, which is neither a military objective nor the act of a patriot.

But yes, clearly the sheer enormity of Veidt's plan drove him over the edge - possibly because he always thought that he was the baddest man in town and has been effortlessly trumped by a man who isn't even getting off on his planned mass murder.
 
 
deja_vroom
13:19 / 20.03.09
In Blake’s pretty black and white world, Veidt’s plan is too big, too morally grey for him to comprehend

That would be Rorschach's world, not Blake's. Remember, Blake's the one making excuses for rape, for instance.
 
 
Neon Snake
13:34 / 20.03.09
I would suggest that the fact that Blake really doesn't like Veidt may have something to do with him viewing Veidt's plan with more suspicion than he may have done had it been someone else.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:01 / 20.03.09
Well, on one (slightly schematic) level, Watchmen is all about trying to live by a consistent, coherent philosophy, and the consequences when that philosophy fails you. The four prime movers of the story each represent a different philosophical stance, and each reaches a turning point when his philosophy proves inadequate to the challenges of the situation.

The Comedian is a nihilist, having discarded all moral absolutes in pursuit of gratifying his own basest instincts. Nothing is true, everything is permitted; it’s all “a joke” in a meaningless universe. But his philosophy fails him when he discovers the enormity of Veidt’s plan. He can’t laugh it off; his conscience betrays him, and he pays with his life.

Veidt sees himself as a pragmatist, and is able to justify any atrocity for the sake of the greater good. Yet after his plan is completed, he is tormented by doubt and guilt—which is why he lets Dan pummel him. It’s not going to end well for Adrian, I think. His philosophy gives him the strength of will to create a new world, but not to live with himself afterwards.

Dr. Manhattan is “beyond good and evil.” Existence exists, and things are what they are, all without any ultimate purpose. But instead of choosing the depravity of the Comedian—“Why not indulge my worst desires?”—he falls instead into the existentialist trap of “Why do anything at all?” His philosophy fails when Laurie reawakens his interest in human life, causing him first to attempt to intervene on Earth and then to go off and build his own universe.

Rorschach’s objectivist ethos is by this point well-explored and well-understood. What’s interesting, I think, is that the cracks in his philosophical façade started to appear quite early—first in his mercy towards Moloch when he finds the phony medication, then in his mercy towards his landlady (in the book). He was already finding it impossible to live entirely within his ideals, and faced with the choice of having to abandon them, he chose instead to abandon life itself.

Or not. His goading Dr. Manhattan into making the hard decision for him—instead of actively killing himself—is particularly disturbing in light of his objectivist priciples. Objectivism is all about personal responsibility, and it’s the very depth of weakness to ask have to ask anyone else to make a life-or-death decision for you. That moment shows how far from his ideals the man has already fallen—which may be why he chooses to die as Kovacs, if you get my meaning. Because Rorschach, pure, incorruptible Rorschach, would never beg for the mercy of death.
 
  

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