BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Watchmen movie news

 
  

Page: 1 ... 1920212223(24)2526

 
 
Quantum
15:26 / 23.03.09
At this point it amost feels like books like Persepolis (also made into a film, of course) or Fun Home, or even an old stager like Maus, don't really occupy the same space any more

Following Stoat's post, I think it's a much clearer divergence in comics than SF. In my local comic emporium they have an Indy wall of Srs Bzns Comix on the opposite side of the shop from the men-in-tights section- Persepolis, American Splendour etc. are all on *that* side despite being major movies, and Watchmen, Invisibles etc. are all on the superhero side. (In fact at the moment Watchmen is the entire front half of the shop, but you know what I mean)

There seems to be two streams, mainstream marketed at kids and nerds and indy aimed at arty grown-up types. The fact that it's the same people buying Maus and Green Lantern Corps at the same time shows what a fiction it is, but in terms of marketing there's a big difference.
 
 
Neon Snake
15:36 / 23.03.09
In reality, many people were introduced to The Watchmen 20 years ago because someone we knew told us it was really great.

You've pre-empted my next question here, I think, which would have been "Should I read the book, and if so, why?" - but without using any terms which I could interpret as "marketing".

Essentially, the tactics we use to get our mates to read something are the same ones that marketeers would employ; the difference being that we can be far more targeted when talking to our mates.

(Certainly, for some of my mates, the fact that Brad Pitt is in a film would be a relevant factor.)

Although the end goal is different (make loads of money), the intent is the same - how can I persuade people to read this/watch this? What will make the difference to them? What's the selling point?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
15:41 / 23.03.09
Yeah, I can see that: You caught me spewing bs and made me realise what I was doing. I tend to think of things as being "bad" when money's changing hands on a big scale.
 
 
Janean Patience
18:46 / 24.03.09
So I'm the only person who had the utterly predictable fanboy rage reaction to the film? Who sat there seething as chapter-by-chapter my favourite lines, scenes, characters were ruined? Who actually found myself blaming Zack Snyder and no-one else, like the worst kind of internet fanboy, as if Snyder was the only person involved in the whole adapatation?

I'm not proud. And it was always going to be the case. I sit typing this under three framed Watchmen promotional posters, one original and the other two fakes produced fairly recently. I read the graphic novel (first edition, signed) in 1987 and I recognise I'm incapable of exercising critical judgement regarding it. When people point out flaws it's like when someone criticises my pets; technically I can see they're right, but the way I feel is in no way changed.

I just thought there'd be other like me on here, that's all. Maybe they've kept quiet. After all, I have become the YOU RUINED IT! sad act that I usually like to laugh at online.

As regards the significance of the film, I agree that this is the first time there's been a critical consensus about the original work offering more than the movie. It wasn't long ago I read a review of Road To Perdition that put all its failings down to being an adaptation of a graphic novel. The reaction to this movie feels important because it's a mass-culture acknowledgement of the graphic novel, whatever that means to the casual reader; an acknowledgement that comics have grown up.
 
 
deja_vroom
19:11 / 24.03.09
I'm not proud. And it was always going to be the case. I sit typing this under three framed Watchmen promotional posters, one original and the other two fakes produced fairly recently. I read the graphic novel (first edition, signed) in 1987 and I recognise I'm incapable of exercising critical judgement regarding it.

Self-answered really. This is mostly a function of people's attachment to the book. Someone who cares deeply will squeal in deep rage at some of the most baffling/pinheaded decisions Snyder & Co took (and they took a lot of those), while the casual observer will move on. But just for the purpose of venting, and if you care, we can talk about what exactly made you mad...
 
 
electric monk
20:22 / 24.03.09
I'm interested in seeing your criticisms as well, JP. And while I'm not filled with rage, I have a feeling that we will share at least one common disappointment RE: teh ruination of a particular character, which I'd like to discuss.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:47 / 24.03.09
So I'm the only person who had the utterly predictable fanboy rage reaction to the film? Who sat there seething as chapter-by-chapter my favourite lines, scenes, characters were ruined?

My feeling was that for the most part, favourite lines, scenes and characters were faithfully honoured, so I would be interested in hearing what riled you. I would be hard-pressed to think of any SF book or superhero comic that was more faithfully adapted than this. I'm not sure whether you could have expected anything closer to the original in a mainstream adaptation to a different medium.
 
 
Jack Fear
21:54 / 24.03.09
for the most part, favourite lines, scenes and characters were faithfully honoured

Oh yes yes yes the words were there, the lines were there but they DIDN'T SOUND EXACTLY THE WAY THEY HAVE ALWAYS SOUNDED INSIDE MY HEAD FOR ALMOST A QUARTER-CENTURY.

Do you get it now?

It wasn't perfect; therefore, it sucked. And indeed, it could not have been otherwise. The movie could not possibly have ever been perfect, because the book is perfect, and the movie is not the book, and therefore cannot be perfect. And therefore must always of necessity suck.

Do you see the hurdles involved hereā€”for Zack Snyder in adapting the book in the first place, and for you, trying to have a good-faith conversation about that adaptation and whether it worked on its own terms?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:57 / 24.03.09
Yes, I think I see what you're saying.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
11:12 / 25.03.09
Apropos of film success leading to books sales ... Saw a rather fit banker type sitting reading a brand new hardcover edition of Watchmen on the tube yesterday. He was nearly finished and evidently absorbed.

Not only did I notice, but the gaggle of directional Camden females next to me did too, and there was much pointing, whispering and giggling (he didn't seem to notice this, but was probably just being coy).

It's official:
a) the word is spreading and new and unlikely folk are buying the book

b) Reading Watchmen makes you hot and interesting. (OK, he was hot already, but Watchmen made him hotter and definitely more interesting. I long to introduce him to the sordid delights of the Dark Knight Returns, or possibly The Boys).
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:16 / 25.03.09
It's 1986 all over again! Soon businessmen will be reading revolutionary post-literary art sequence "MAUS" without embarrassment, and we'll see an exciting New Wave of post-Watchmen graphic books, with fresh talent like Grant Morrison, Pat Mills and Neil Gaiman offering us a radical take on old favorites.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
11:23 / 25.03.09
Businessmen? Show me hot powerful women on thr bus reading Love and Rockets by Los Bros Hernandez...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:24 / 25.03.09
There must be a website for that kind of thing.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
13:42 / 25.03.09
Miss Wonderstarr, there is no need to be sarcastic.
 
 
Neon Snake
14:12 / 25.03.09
The idea of bowlerhatted banker-types looking through the graphic novel section of Waterstones is appealing though.

"That was pretty good; I wonder what other comics that were made into films might also be worth - hey! Is that the one with Angelina Jolie and the slo-mo bullets?"
 
 
deja_vroom
14:14 / 25.03.09
Apropos of the "They RUUUIIINED IT" sub-thread, just so the internet knows, Rorschach should never shrugh (as he did in the movie when replying "Retribution" to Dan asking him what "The Watchmen" should do) or otherwise display any sort of over-expressive physical motion. Just after doing that he uttered the phrase "Sez Tricky Dick", and I was ready to bite someone's cheek off.

I can understand why they changed his vacuous facial expression for the interview scene, but I was really dreading that anytime Rorschach would take off his hat and scratch his head in cartoonish bewilderment, or something equally inappropriate.

This whole Watchmen movie experience makes me think of a simile from the dude from "Zero Punctuation": "It's like having a stranger wearing a very accurate version of you best friend's face for a mask". At times it works wonderfully, but it doesn't take long for you to notice that the stranger actually memorized the bits you're reminiscing together, which feels, of course, creepy and wrong.
 
 
Neon Snake
14:32 / 25.03.09
Also apropos, I couldn't resist downloading the demo of PS3 game, wherein I (Rorshach) and my wife (Nite-Owl) amused ourselves for all of 15 minutes by beating down various generic denizens of Sing Sing Prison...

...during which Rorshach opined out loud on the deficiences of the prison system, noting that it failed in its goal of rebabilitating criminals, instead creating a vicious circle of crime by placing them in an environment with other criminals.

Ho-hum.

Still, I got to throw a guy over a railing from the second floor up! And Nite-Owl had some sort of stun grenade!

Oh, and the Rorshach character model always has his hand in his pockets, other than when issuing a beating.
 
 
CameronStewart
15:15 / 25.03.09
I was really dreading that anytime Rorschach would take off his hat and scratch his head in cartoonish bewilderment, or something equally inappropriate.

And yet, he didn't, did he?
 
 
Quantum
16:11 / 25.03.09
A bit of a tangent, who killed Silhouette? Liquidator? In the film was it Ozy? I suspect the extended ed will not include Under the Hood in entirety so it may never be clear, but it occurred to me it might be a change Snyder would make, to further villainise Ozy.
 
 
deja_vroom
16:36 / 25.03.09
And yet, he didn't, did he?

No, of course. For some stretches, the illusion was maintained.

I have to say I lean favorably towards this project simply because it is so weird.

Before the lights went out in the theater I was delighted to look around me and see the innocent faces of regular cinema-going people, the type who apparently "goes out to check the new movie of the weekend", people who wouldn't be caught dead near a comic book etc., and yet think there's nothing wrong in watching a movie about the same subject, having never felt that stigma, its bittersweet sting... *a-hem*

But anyway, as that disjointed mammoth slogged on the screen it felt weird and risky, like a mentally arrested child playing unattended too close to the swimming pool - and I thought of this big studio - big studios having shed any aspiration to art they might have had and fully embracing the entertainment aspect of the business, becoming more and more calcified in their pursuit of the ideal, safe, high-liquidity four demographic quadrants movie or whatever - spending big money on this thing that they had to know not only would not entertain, it would also upset (as it did). Not to mention the "practical joke" aspect of it all, which meta-amplified the one in the story by the tentpole promotional tactics employed by W. Bros.' marketing dept...

I said this before, but to anyone who's even mildly interested in cinema, its politics, economics etc., it was all very interesting, fascinating, really.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:14 / 25.03.09
A bit of a tangent, who killed Silhouette? Liquidator? In the film was it Ozy?

Veidt would have been about nine years old at the time, so I kinda doubt it.
 
 
penitentvandal
18:21 / 25.03.09
No ordinary nine-year-old could do it - but a nine-year-old of superhuman intelligence...
 
 
Janean Patience
18:27 / 25.03.09
We can talk about what exactly made you mad...

I guess I've had enough entertainment from raging geeks whose lives were ruined by The Phantom Menace or Matrix Revolutions that I owe this. So I'll go into detail. But I do acknowledge that Jack Fear's

It wasn't perfect; therefore, it sucked. The movie could not possibly have ever been perfect, because the book is perfect, and the movie is not the book, and therefore cannot be perfect.

is an absolutely valid criticism of everything I have to say.

Okay. Beginning at the beginning, I liked the title sequence just like everyone else. I didn't feel like the movie was a failure until about halfway, in fact. But the opening fight between Veidt and the Comedian exemplified one of my big issues.

There have been a whole bunch of successful superhero movies now, each one to some extent building on the success of the one before and using the same visual vocabulary, the same tropes. Fights are orchestrated one punch at a time, like in kung fu movies. Knives go swish. Property is damaged, the Matrix films firmly establishing this for all the comicbook movies that followed. (I count them as comicbook movies.) Costumes are kept in display cases made of brushed blue steel.

Watchmen, and that opening fight, was done exactly from this playbook. Quite possibly it had to be, because otherwise there's very little time to establish these guys as superheroes. But it lost the downbeat subtlety that was so much of the book. The tone was completely different. And that in turn meant that the cliches of the book, which perhaps were easier to miss when it was all viewed through this despondent filter, were unavoidable. Veidt, the businessman in the suit promising a fantastic new source of energy, was so obviously the bad guy from his first scene. Forget the performance; any businessman promising a new dawn for the world from his glass office is always the bad guy in an action movie. The new source of energy is always derived from boiling children alive or some shit.

The opening couple of chapters were translated pretty much entire because they're all about the superpeople. (I thought we could have done without Rorschach's Pagaliacci speech without the images that accompanied it, though.) After that the plot began moving at breakneck pace because of the elimination of pretty much everyone who wasn't super. This, again, changes the tone; it also eliminates the threat. Without a Greek chorus to dread the approaching holocaust, without all the little visual cues making it clear that this is a society consumed with the apocalypse they're all expecting any day now, then nuclear annihilation is just a Maltese Falcon. It's what our heroes will be averting in the end because that's what heroes do.

Books which take time out to go and do something else, like Jon's chapter on Mars, always suffer in adaptation. Look at the movie of Hannibal; the book could quite happily move to Florence for 150 pages and fill us in on what Doc's been up to. The film had to keep cutting back to Starling in the records lab, reassuring us that yes, it was the same movie, and Julianne Moore will be back as soon as we're done with this Italian action. Calling the narrative momentum of an action film to a halt to expand on the origins of a main character who's barely featured thus far and who requires suspension of disbelief way beyond Batman or Spider-Man was a brave move, but it meant his story was rushed. We found out everything about Dr Manhattan's supercareer but nothing about his personal life, so there wasn't an emotional element to his decision-making. My partner, who kindly accompanied me to the cinema, found the Mars bits baffling. Without the subtlety, without the character moments, they didn't have much reason to exist.

Time was also a problem. In Jon's origin obviously, because recreating his sense of time was either something that couldn't be done in this medium or something there just wasn't space for. But the medium has its own issues with time. I don't know who I'm misquoting - some director or cineaste - who said that films can do days passing and they can do years passing but they have trouble with weeks and months. I felt that here. Laurie seemed to jump from bed with Jon to the sofa with Dan. Rorschach was in prison for all of five minutes. The action was nonstop to squeeze every scene in.

I may as well say at this point that I won't be tipping Malin Akerman for any Oscars, either. Two of the big three emotional moments in the story are hers - finding out who dad was and telling mum she knows - and both passed without a ripple. Laurie's probably the most difficult character in the book, a woman who's inextricably connected to all this superstuff but also reserved from it, the one who's always known it's just dressing up and playing. I didn't get that from her performance. And thigh-high latex boots are, I accept, standard wear for the superheroine however wrong that is. But when you're fucking wearing nothing else then you've crossed the Rubicon to the land of fetish porn.

How long did that sex scene have to go on, incidentally? Long enough to hammer home the point that these ain't your daddy's superheroes, kid? And then a bit longer? I'd never seen the flamethrower as a very obvious ejaculatory metaphor before. Paging through the book, I saw it wasn't; it happens, at least from my interpretation of the storytelling, early on. But that could be changed and subtlety eliminated. So it was.

Laurie's Mars revelation, which is the big turning point in the book, didn't seem to have any impact in the film. Likewise her conversation with her mum was just a postscript. The other key emotional moment for me is the sequence which opens #12; we've been in this city, on this intersection, so long doing so many different scenes in so many nine-panel grids filled with dialogue and captions and people, and now we're there and it's silent, still, unframed, the shoals of double-meanings there to be picked up later but an afterthought to the deaths. The apocalyse has come and it's not even ours, it's not even human. The price of Veidt's actions is apparent well before we find out that he has bought a peace. And that's gone, replaced with a bloodless dead New York that's overfamiliar from all the other action movies that kill New York for laughs.

Without that emotional punch, without feeling every death as Veidt does, it's just an action film with a weird ending. I do wonder what audiences made of that - the bad guy gets away with it, and maybe he isn't the bad guy - but I didn't make much of it. By that point I just wanted to leave.

Zack Snyder hasn't raped my childhood. I'll still enjoy the book and I don't really know if the film could've been better without being that mini-series everyone used to talk about. But it did hurt me, painful though that is to admit, to see something so carefully and painstakingly constructed miss the mark so thoroughly. Because of such little differences in style and in tone.

To steal a quote from Terry Gilliam that's linked to from CBR this week:

"[Watchmen is] really dense, and when you try and reduce it down to a couple of hours it's just comic book heroes again and it doesn't have real meaning."
 
 
CameronStewart
19:20 / 25.03.09
You know, I can't really argue with anything you've said, but I still enjoyed the movie.

Go figure.
 
 
Janean Patience
19:25 / 25.03.09
You wait until the Seaguy movie comes out, mofo. With Chubby kicking wasp ass in slo-mo with sweeps of his silver tail. Then you'll be sorry.
 
 
penitentvandal
20:58 / 25.03.09
Zack Snyder hasn't raped my childhood.

You say that, but when I broke into Zack Snyder's office I found a file on his computer with the title 'Childhood, Janean Patience's, Raping Of, The.'
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:07 / 26.03.09
I really enjoyed it. I didn't have a problem with the fight scenes- because that's how fight scenes are DONE in superhero movies.

There were a couple of appalling moments- the sex scene springs to mind, for a start- and some of the musical choices were, yes, SHIT.

Overall I think it could have worked better if it hadn't clung so closely to the source material, but that would have got it a whole heap MORE shit.

The ending... I actually thought the ending worked, though as has been said we didn't really see the human cost- no streets filled with corpses or any of that. I think that had they gone with the squid ending, it would have played out as being REALLY REALLY STUPID when actually onscreen. So to me, that was a good choice, but one which could have been executed better.

Insofar as being a live-action version of the comic story, it was pretty damn good. Whether that's what was required is an entirely different thing.

The casting was excellent... I thought it was a pretty good movie, with a few problems. I just wonder if it would have been better had the comic not been considered quite so sacrosanct.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
13:49 / 26.03.09
The new source of energy is always derived from boiling children alive or some shit.



Wait - that could work ...!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:38 / 26.03.09
Nah, seriously, take it from me. It's not viable.

Allegedly.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
22:57 / 26.03.09
I might have to kill you in the face next time I see you Stoats. No SQUID = No LIFE.


I'm open to bribes, tho.
 
 
penitentvandal
05:42 / 27.03.09
There is a SQUID in the movie, sort of, though - Ozzy's Dr Manhattan Simulator is called a Sub QUantum Interference Device, or somesuch. You see the sign, briefly, on the wall in Veidt's lab when John teleports the reactor to him.

Only saw that on second watch, and thought it a nice touch, though if by any chance you didn't already know what the different ending was before watching the film, if you saw the sign you'd find yourself going 'ah, this is what blows everybody up.'
 
 
Quantum
10:10 / 27.03.09
Heh, that's awesome.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:08 / 27.03.09
Reading Watchmen makes you hot and interesting

Funnily enough, I've been reading Lost Girls on public transport lately.

I've had a few stares, I guess, but no takers so far. Maybe it's the raincoat that's putting people off?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:56 / 27.03.09
You know those right-wing cartoons in The Onion, which always feature a crying Statue of Liberty? I realised during my re-read of Watchmen that they must be based on Gibbons' pastiche of a right-wing cartoon with a crying Statue of Liberty, in the New Frontiersman section.
 
 
Janean Patience
20:24 / 27.03.09
Stoatie: Overall I think it could have worked better if it hadn't clung so closely to the source material.

Yeah, very likely. Taking the comics as storyboards worked okay for Sin City, but that was much more cinematic than literary anyway. Filleting Watchmen, but otherwise leaving it intact, meant the story had a very unbalanced structure. And as William Goldman says, SCREENPLAYS ARE STRUCTURE.

Had they gone with the squid ending, it would have played out as being REALLY REALLY STUPID when actually onscreen.

Possibly... remember in the original it's a big dead squid. We never see it alive, and somehow that makes it a lot more convincing than seeing it thrashing around killing people with its squiddy tentacles. This adaptation/Zack Snyder being the enemy of subtlety that it/he is, we would have seen thrashy tentacles, a bone-crushing beak and lethal ink. So overall a mercy that it was removed.

Thinking about the film has really brought out the cliches in the book. Rorschach? He's the MAVERICK COP who WON'T QUIT because he's AFTER THE TRUTH GODDAMMIT. Nite Owl? He's the LEGENDARY COP who quit but COMES OUT OF RETIREMENT for one last job because THAT MOTHERFUCKER KILLED MY BUDDY. Veidt? The GOOD COP TURNED BAD. Jon? The higher-up cop who's bound not to interfere but who BREAKS THE RULES because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO. And Laurie? Motivation for the dudes, the usual female role in action movies.

Not a criticism of the book, because it's all about the extra stuff, the layers Moore and Gibbons pile on to a simple story. It's just interesting to see how simple it can be.

miss w: I realised during my re-read of Watchmen that they must be based on Gibbons' pastiche of a right-wing cartoon with a crying Statue of Liberty, in the New Frontiersman section.

Maybe... I was once convinced, and failed to convince Rich Johnston, that the Kovacs files at the end of chapter six were visually based on a similar Bill Oddie section in a Goodies book. Too much reading and you start to see patterns everywhere. It's enough to drive a man mad.

(Good to see you posting again, btw.)
 
  

Page: 1 ... 1920212223(24)2526

 
  
Add Your Reply