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Watchmen movie news

 
  

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miss wonderstarr
21:28 / 27.03.09
I can't scan it or find it online, but check out that New Frontiersman cartoon and compare. It's bound to be in the same mould (simplistic figures standing for concepts) but I don't think the weeping Statue of Liberty is such a common motif that its recurrence in both cartoons is coincidence. (Though I guess it may be a reference, in the Onion cartoons, to post-9/11 weeping eagle images)



 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:06 / 28.03.09
Would the world have been a better place if Robert Crumb had been put to sleep as a toddler?

My feeling is, yeah.
 
 
coweatman
22:54 / 31.03.09
jumping into this thread very, very late: (i caught a cheap afternoon showing last week because if it was bad, then i'd only be out $5)

i think rorschach is a sympathetic character largely because he's really broken, and is trying extremely hard to try to make the world a better place, according to how he views it. he's not that different than veidt - they're both ruthless and very end justifies the means. i mean, sure, he does a lot of terrible things, but you see him going out of his way to be good to the people he considers friends, and you can tell he's going against his basic nature to do it, and he's really stretching.
 
 
Jack Fear
00:23 / 01.04.09
but you see him going out of his way to be good to the people he considers friends, and you can tell he's going against his basic nature to do it, and he's really stretching

One swallow does not a Summer make.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
05:43 / 01.04.09
but you see him going out of his way to be good to the people he considers friends, and you can tell he's going against his basic nature to do it, and he's really stretching.

I don't really feel that. I think he is just coming to terms with the ideas of friendship, loyalty and compassion for the first time in his life, before he dies, and as someone aptly said above, this is partly why he died that way, as an act of almost-suicide, taking off his face ~ he's going against (or growing out of) Rorschach.
 
 
bjacques
13:28 / 01.04.09
Haven't seen it yet. If I can't corral a friend into going I might just wait for the director's cut DVD. I definitely want to see it, even though it's clear by now it won't have one of these (*Not a Watchmen Saturday Morning rickroll*)in it. It would have been nice to reintroduce audiences to Ernest Haeckel's fine work after a century.
 
 
coweatman
06:58 / 04.04.09
"I don't really feel that. I think he is just coming to terms with the ideas of friendship, loyalty and compassion for the first time in his life, before he dies, and as someone aptly said above, this is partly why he died that way, as an act of almost-suicide, taking off his face ~ he's going against (or growing out of) Rorschach."

yeah, but compare it to another bit of media - the last time we see david brent in the office xmas special, it's a really big deal that he's not taking his friend's bait to be an asshole, and he just sort of quietly steps down. it would have been completely out of character for him to make a bigger gesture, but knowing where he's coming from, you know it's a big deal and it's a big step for him.

i dunno, i find rorschach sympathetic. it doesn't mean you have to.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:15 / 04.04.09
I find Rorschach surprisingly sympathetic.
 
 
deja_vroom
14:41 / 07.04.09
Meanwhile, man kills self during screening.
 
 
Janean Patience
15:50 / 07.04.09
See? I didn't overreact that badly.
 
 
doctorbeck
19:29 / 14.04.09
i just got back from seeing gran torino, a really wonderful film marred only by my having the feeling that i was in fact watching Old Man Rorschach following up the story after dr manhatan teleports kovacs / kowalski to suburban america and gets him married with kids.

now in old age he looks back on what he did as rorschach with a sense of sadness. even their names were goddam similar.
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
11:05 / 16.04.09
While it probably helps we all started with soooo low expectations for this film (see thread summary for details), I'd side with the majority and agree it made a surprisingly good fist of things.

However, we're really here to fannishly nitpick aren't we?

I am pretty surprised that they should leave out two lines which to me are key, if not the key to the whole edifice. Firstly, the Psychiatrist's final comment of Rorschach's mask, that it's all just a bunch of random blobs and blurs which we assign meaning to only to feel better. Then Dr. Manhattan's parting comment to Veidt ("nothing ever ends"), which makes it clear his whole dastardly plot won't last for long.

Which is peculiar because in neither case could I see a good reason for excluding them. It's not like they'd left something larger out that would make incorporating them difficult, or they went against one of the (few) modifications.

Fuller response here, should anyone be interested.
 
 
NewMyth
08:01 / 17.04.09
Those are excellent examples, Lucid Frenzy. I noticed and missed Rorschach's poor psychiatrist's dismal staring into the abyss, a dark epiphany. I'd like to think it will be in the Director's Cut, but that may not be a realistic expectation.

Dr. Manhattan's comment was there, but diluted, as his words were spoken by Laurie, quoting him to NiteOwl.
Not as effective. To nitpick, in the novel Dr. M says, "Nothing ever ends;" in the film Laurie quotes him as, "Nothing ever lasts." In some ways, I like the last wording.

On re-reading the novel, I found Ozymandias', "I did the right thing, didn't I?" to Dr. M. somewhat out of character, as he was willing to kill millions. But that moment of doubt is kind of a nice touch.
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
16:26 / 17.04.09
On re-reading the novel, I found Ozymandias', "I did the right thing, didn't I?" to Dr. M. somewhat out of character, as he was willing to kill millions. But that moment of doubt is kind of a nice touch.

I always read that as Ozymandias assuming Manhattan is the one person he can speak to as an equal. It's like being in a roomfull of toddlers and one eight-year-old, the eight-year-old assumes circumstances make him an adult like you. But of course to Manhattan he's just another human...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:39 / 17.04.09
I'm not sure I'd go that far. Ozymandias is looking at Doctor Manhattan and seeing an entity who can tell the future and who can, in effect, give him absolution - can tell him that he was right all along, that the horror of what he had done was justified by the salvation of humankind. I think he realises that he is not talking to an equal.
 
 
Neon Snake
09:07 / 18.04.09
Then Dr. Manhattan's parting comment to Veidt ("nothing ever ends"), which makes it clear his whole dastardly plot won't last for long.

Left out because it makes Veidt feel doubt, I think, which in turn makes him more sympathetic to the viewer, and less obviously the villain of the piece.

The end sequence was really at pains to remove a lot of "those" moments (eg. We don't see Dan go through the whole "Oh god, that's awful, you've killed millions! But, um, yeah. I see your point. We'd best keep quiet. Laurie? More sex?" sequence), and put in others which have the opposite effect (eg. We do see Dan go through "Oh god, that's awful, you've killed my friend! NOOOO!!" and punchypunch the villain round the chops, just like a proper goodie would).
 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:13 / 18.04.09
Dr. Manhattan's parting comment to Veidt ("nothing ever ends"), which makes it clear his whole dastardly plot won't last for long.

I think "nothing ever ends", in Manhattan's terms, is probably very different to what Ozymandias would mean by it. Within Manhattan's cosmic perspective, killing half New York is, as he implies, like someone stepping on half of an anthill. So I don't think Manhattan is telling Ozymandias specifically that his plan will be undermined and reversed ~ though, on the other hand, that does fit very nicely with Morrison's interpretation of Watchmen, that it's meant to be circular and that the final panel is intended to take us right back to a second reading, with a new perspective. Manhattan is, I suggest, questioning the very concept of "end", just like he questioned the concept of "up" during his TV interview.
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
09:55 / 18.04.09
Ozymandias is looking at Doctor Manhattan and seeing an entity who can tell the future and who can, in effect, give him absolution

Except he's the very person who has prevented Manhattan seeing into the future! ("Nearest thing to an equal" might have been better phrasing on my part, though.)

Miss Wonderstarr, very much agree with what you're saying but in my reading the two things go together. Ozymandias is in effect trying a giant act of hubris, assuming he can reshape the whole world not only into a shape of his choosing but on a permanent basis. Manhattan laughs at this like you would a child telling you he'd be a spaceman.

The Psychiatrist's comment about the Rorschach Test comes in here as well. We want to make those meaningless blobs into a shape we like the look of, but we can't.

Neon Snake, very much agree with you as well! But the paradox is that this also makes him into a successful villain, not the standard movie ending.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:55 / 18.04.09
But the paradox is that this also makes him into a successful villain, not the standard movie ending.

Truly. A little later, we see Veidt Industries helping to rebuild New York, further cementing his villainous status via the American-companies-winning-contracts-to-rebuild-Iraq trope.

And yet, the film ends (I think? Is that the last scene?) with Rorsharch's journal hitting the desk of the New Frontiersman - which in the film has not been built into the rightwingnutjob rag of the comic - and so the implication is that Rorsharch posthumously does, in fact, undo all of Veidt's schemes.

(In the comic world, we know that it might just get written off as another rightwing conspiracy - in the film, I don't think we're led to the same conclusion)
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
10:14 / 19.04.09
In the comic world, we know that it might just get written off as another rightwing conspiracy - in the film, I don't think we're led to the same conclusion

Except we still get the handing-over from the Editor to the Office Retard, the spilt ketchup and the "I leave it in your hands" line. So I'm not sure the difference is that great.

I think Moore wasn't intending to suggest that Rorschach's diary itself will spill the beans, but he was suggesting that at some point Veidt's plan would be undone. A major theme of Watchmen is the anti-hubris thing, most of the characters believe they've arrived at some understanding of the workings of the world. Veidt is just the most extreme example. Moore's point is that the world is always much more chaotic than that, and will never just obediently reshape itself to suit us. So he chooses to end the whole thing on a freeze-frame of a coin up in the air...
 
 
Neon Snake
10:27 / 19.04.09
I'm not sure what Moore intended - I'd presume that he intended at the very least to open up the possibility that Rorsharch would undo Veidt's work.

I'm more convinced that Snyder intended the scene to be viewed that way.

As an aside, I'm sure there was nothing intended, but you could replace "Retard" with "Idiot"? It's more accurate in the context, without having the unpleasant connotations around unfavourable comparisons to the mentally handicapped. Cheers.
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
15:05 / 19.04.09
I'm not sure what Moore intended - I'd presume that he intended at the very least to open up the possibility that Rorsharch would undo Veidt's work.

Yes, but anything stronger would suggest that Rorschach's plan had worked. It all being left up to chance seems to me a big part of Moore's intention. You could probably argue about whether Snyder had an intention, that wasn't just "bring the comic to the screen."

With 'retard' I was thinking more of a term the Editor would use. Can't remember if that's in the actual dialogue or not. 'Idiot' has actually been used in similar ways in the past (eg "village idiot"), though it's root actually comes from 'idiosyncratic'. Still, i take your point...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:55 / 19.04.09
The one doesn't derive from the other - same root, but different paths - "idiotes" means "a private citizen", and then by extension someone who does not practise a public trade - someone without skill. So an idiosyncrasy is a behaviour (strictly, a mixing together, the implication being a suppose a mixing together of characteristics) that is peculiar to an individual (idios).

Not strictly relevant to the Watchmen, I realise.
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
07:48 / 20.04.09
Thanks for the clarification, Bruce. I should have said it's root is 'from the same source as', but didn't - so maybe we need a politically correct term to describe me!

(Then again I guess my chief point, that it's not an inherently derogatory term, still stands.)
 
 
Neon Snake
08:02 / 20.04.09
Yes, but anything stronger would suggest that Rorschach's plan had worked. It all being left up to chance seems to me a big part of Moore's intention.

That makes sense. I think that by showing that the possibility exists that Veidt's plan can be undone by, for example, Rorsharch's journal, it is clear that the result might not be permanent.

You could probably argue about whether Snyder had an intention, that wasn't just "bring the comic to the screen."

I would argue that the intent in the film (be it Snyder or the producers or whoever) was different, in that I think we are mean't to sympathise far more strongly with Dan, Laurie and Rorsharch, and far less so with Veidt and Manhatten - I think this is a key difference from the comic. The scenes at the end lead to this, I believe.

With that in mind, I find it far easier to believe that in the film, we are mean't to believe that Rorsharch succeeds in exposing Veidt after all.

With 'retard' I was thinking more of a term the Editor would use. Can't remember if that's in the actual dialogue or not. 'Idiot' has actually been used in similar ways in the past (eg "village idiot"), though it's root actually comes from 'idiosyncratic'. Still, i take your point...

Fair enough on the point that the Editor probably would use the term, I didn't get that that's what you were doing. And yeah, "idiot" may well have been used in much the same sense, but it doesn't currently, I believe, have the same connotations. No worries, thanks for clarifying.
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
10:33 / 20.04.09
I would argue that the intent in the film (be it Snyder or the producers or whoever) was different, in that I think we are mean't to sympathise far more strongly with Dan, Laurie and Rorsharch, and far less so with Veidt and Manhatten - I think this is a key difference from the comic. The scenes at the end lead to this, I believe.

Fair point. Though there's still a distinction in the comic between regular guys with superpowers (Dan and Laurie) and the genuinely otherly Rorschach, Manhattan and Veidt.

Fair enough on the point that the Editor probably would use the term, I didn't get that that's what you were doing

Well that was because I failed to make it clear!
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:54 / 20.04.09
Fair point. Though there's still a distinction in the comic between regular guys with superpowers (Dan and Laurie) and the genuinely otherly Rorschach, Manhattan and Veidt.

I think the only real distinction is between Manhattan and everyone else. Everyone -- the smartest man on Earth, the crazy vigilante, the woman doing it because her mom made her, the guy doing it for the gadgets, the government-hired killer -- is just a human being in a costume and mask, to Manhattan.

As for Rorschach's journal. I was always dubious about whether it would ever be taken seriously, even if the New Frontiersman did publish it. The NF is a right-wing, amateur paper. Rorschach is thought of as a crazy bigot. Most of Rorschach's journal hypothesises that Jimmy the Gimmick, the King of Skin or some other masked adventurer is out killing off old enemies ~ that is, it's way off the mark. When he drops off the journal, he only knows that Ozymandias is behind various other companies, one of which (I think it's established by that point) engineered cancer in Manhattan's contacts, and another of which arranged a fake hit on Adrian. By the time Rorschach leaves for Karnak, he doesn't know the full extent of Adrian's plan, at all.

So, an incomplete theory from a right-wing nutter, published by a right-wing nutter newspaper, against the vast media empire of Adrian Veidt. Would it really have any chance of overturning his plan? Wouldn't Veidt just wipe out the New Frontiersman offices and burn the journal within hours of any hint of the journal coming to light?
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
15:38 / 20.04.09
I'm more convinced that Snyder intended the scene to be viewed that way.

The ambiguous thing about Snyder is over what he actually intended to change and where he just succumbed to the pressing weight of accumulated cinema cliche. Veidt being a much more telegraphed villain would seem to me to fall into the second camp. But the way he changes Veidt's plot did seem to me to be an improvement.
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
21:50 / 20.04.09
I think the only real distinction is between Manhattan and everyone else. Everyone -- the smartest man on Earth, the crazy vigilante, the woman doing it because her mom made her, the guy doing it for the gadgets, the government-hired killer -- is just a human being in a costume and mask, to Manhattan.

Manhattan is the most powerful, yes. But Veidt, Rorschach and perhaps the Comedian are all super in the literal sense of more than. They represent an ideology or philosophy, call it what you will, with such conviction that the two have become inseperable. Hence for example Rorschach's insistence that he is the mask. Dan in particular is the counterweight to all that, just a guy trying to get by. That's why it's so important he should revert to passive acceptance of Veidt's plot.
 
 
Neon Snake
08:21 / 21.04.09
The ambiguous thing about Snyder is over what he actually intended to change and where he just succumbed to the pressing weight of accumulated cinema cliche. Veidt being a much more telegraphed villain would seem to me to fall into the second camp.

I'd certainly be unwilling to decide between deliberate intent from Snyder, pressure from studios to make a clearer hero/villain split, and, as you say, cinema cliche.

But the way he changes Veidt's plot did seem to me to be an improvement.

I'm not sure. My view is that in the comic, the point was that it was a hoax - as long as Veidt never gets found out, then the threat is ever-present, since no-one can possibly know how it happened or why. It's entirely and bafflingly external and separate to anything that humanity has seen up to that point in time.

In the film, the threat comes from one of the characters - Dr. Manhatten. It's a known quantity (well, kind of), and the implication is "Behave, or I'll destroy more of you." There's something in the fact that he is (was?) American, too - America's superweapon turning against them. Now, maybe that works in itself as some kind of commentary, but it's very much against the entirely external threat of the comic.

Then, there's the matter that Veidt actually can carry out the threat himself - he actually HAS replicated Manhatten's destructive powers, and presumably can do so again. So, the "bluff" is unnecessary - he can simply state that it was him, and he will do it again. As "the world's smartest man", I'd willingly buy that he can remain hidden and out of the grip of the authorities who will no doubt come after him, so it's a viable threat.

And if Manhatten agrees with Veidt, which he does "without condeming or condoning", then Veidt could have simply talked to Manhatten first, and got him bought into the concept - Manhatten could have carried out the initial attacks himself, without Veidt having to go to the trouble of replicating the powers.
 
 
_pin
19:00 / 22.04.09
I always read it that the truth did come out, via The New Frontiersman, but in retrospect that was less because it made sense to the plot, and more because the next page was the countdown clock reaching, I believe, midnight, and the page being covered in blood.

I don't know if the clock was in the original, or should be discounted for being non-textual.

Does rather work against the Morrison-circular argument; where's this fleshed out?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:11 / 22.04.09
I think the Morrison interview was on the final page of the Morrison interview thread, on Comics board.
 
 
_pin
20:42 / 22.04.09
Oh. I see. I basically agree with Morrison.

I think the word "circular" tripped me up; it's not really circular at all, there's just a reveal at the end.
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
11:25 / 23.04.09
I always read it that the truth did come out, via The New Frontiersman, but in retrospect that was less because it made sense to the plot, and more because the next page was the countdown clock reaching, I believe, midnight, and the page being covered in blood.

I don't know if the clock was in the original, or should be discounted for being non-textual.


In the original serialised version, on each back cover the blood drips a little lower and the clock ticks a little further. In addition, the cover to the last issue showed the blood-drenched clock at one minute to midnight. As you open the cover, there's a pull-back to show the clock amid a massacred New York.

So in the original the clock-and-blood motif shows you the initialtriumph of Veidt's plot, not any later unravelling.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:07 / 23.04.09
I think the word "circular" tripped me up; it's not really circular at all, there's just a reveal at the end.

Well, yes, but the image at the end is the same as the one at the beginning, and Morrison proposes that once you reach the end, you are "supposed" to (authorial intention) go back to the start and read it again with the new perspective that Seymour and the world are now reading what Rorschach wrote about... so that does seem "circular" to me.
 
  

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