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Batman Vs Frank Miller

 
  

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Jack Fear
18:45 / 27.01.06
Then there's this gem (emphasis mine)...

Almost half my country equates flushing a Koran down a toilet with sawing the head off an innocent contractor, or using airplanes those barbarians could never have invented to slaughter thousands of my neighbors.

Politics has nothing to do with that one: that's racism pure and simple.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:52 / 27.01.06
Jack Fear nails it, and really, Finderwolf, do you never look... Nah, okay, not worth it. Plus, the insane bit about Sin City's "heroes" being like KNIGHTS who the CITY does not reward. And the way he says "Elektra is dead!" every other line - how old is Miller, mentally?
 
 
FinderWolf
19:26 / 27.01.06
Ah, yes. Honestly, I read this site mostly at work while multi-tasking and sometimes don't read every word of everything. I did catch the flushing the Koran bit and bristled at that; however, on pure factual face value, insulting one's religion or even psychologically intimidating someone is a bit less extreme than murdering a man by decapitation (not that insulting one's religion in an attempt to tortute and intimdate is OK, mind you). Reading that, I bristled and said 'well, that's Miller's opinion and he's entitled to it.' Yes, the statement is excessively simplistic and borderline offensive. We all know that many 'contractors' are armed mercenaries, and so on...

I honestly did not see the 'those barbarians never could invented planes' bit. As for him repeating over and over about Elektra, it's an interview, Miller is being Miller and he's still pissed about it. I've seen comics personalities of all kinds be childish in varying degrees about characters they created who get treated poorly (or they may be trying to be playful in their minds) in interviews; that doesn't stun me very much. He's gone on about seeing the heroes of Sin City as being wonderfully noble before, that didn't faze me much either.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:29 / 27.01.06
And yes, the barbarians/planes bit is racism and just plain awful. It is odd, because given Miller's mostly liberal views on things like human rights/civil liberties and censorship, plus his attacks on conservatives in the pages of DK2 and such, you would think he would have more...well, liberal all around. Or at least libertarian, as one poster above stated.
 
 
The Falcon
19:37 / 27.01.06
Yeah, the two are a bit different, Finder.

I dunno (missed the 'barbarians' bit initially, 'cos I was on a skim, as Celeb BB final's on,) and were I so inclined I'd doubtless otherwise condemn anyone who made a similar statement, but I generally really like Frankie's comics, thus perhaps the barbarians = the terrorists.

Again the context isn't particularly favourable for this interp, but it's not a very depthy interview.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:41 / 27.01.06
I suppose the 'is this interview real' question made me think I would find insane-sounding statements throughout, as in every few lines, as in the kind of interview where one might seriously question whether it was real or a pardoy. The one line I saw about the Koran flushing thing and a bunch of complaints about Elektra and romanticing his Sin City heroes didn't make me think 'wow, this is crazy!' If I missed a key line while working I am terribly sorry.

Liberal/Libertarian -- I'm aware of the difference, thanks.
 
 
The Falcon
19:52 / 27.01.06
I wasn't having a dig; personally wasn't really conscious of the latter until Bedhead started on about it and Pope in the Batman 100 thread.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:55 / 27.01.06
sorry, thanks for clarifying.
 
 
m
20:25 / 27.01.06
What do you expect from a guy that can't write any kind book without shoe-horning a ninja into it.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:55 / 27.01.06
To clarify about my saying 'I would think Miller would be more...' above: What's strange is that Miller seems to be embracing some of the rhetoric and ideology used by the very same administration he lampoons in DK2. It's like he's conservative in his fiery rhetoric against terrorism and in his allusion to treatment of prisoners, but liberal in his views about, say, the Bush administration and how it's conducting itself regarding terrorism and how they're using paranoia and fear to control and scare the populace. Or maybe his views have changed since writing DK2 and he's become more extreme...who knows.

Anyway, should be interesting to see how these views show up in his new Batman vs. terrorists book, titled "Holy War" -- it's going to be a graphic novel of about 140 pages, something like that. Miller said he was approx. 1/2 through it a few months ago.
 
 
diz
22:53 / 27.01.06
Wow, Frank Miller's really an insane, reactionary racist, not to mention a misogynist (which we already knew). With that on top of the infamous "ass shot" script, we basically get a picture of Frank Miller as a pathetic middle-aged manchild, perpetually frozen in early adolescence and wallowing in violent, racist, and misogynist fantasies to compensate for imagined slights and an aggrieved sense of white male entitlement.

In other words, your garden-variety American conservative.
 
 
This Sunday
01:44 / 28.01.06
I really shouldn't be posting to this thread, I know. But... really, the bit about how they couldn't possibly have invented a plane? Fuck, I can't build or invent a plane! It happens. Was flying a plane into a building and killing a bunch of people barbaric? That one's up in the air, but the plane-building didn't bother me, and I didn't think of it as a racist statement. He doesn't say/write/imply that all Arabic, Muslim, or even terrorists and their billionaire backers could ever build a plane or invent something, et cetera... we are, strictly with the Muslim/Arabic (and that's a broad brushstroke there, innit) world, talking about a culture that invented a helluva lotta maths and our number system, aside from art and writing and such that's just marvelous. Who I took it to be simply referring to, is the actual hijackers, and I can't say one way or the other if they could have come up with planes, had there been none in existence before that. What I can suggest is that repressive, fascist cultures tend to come to creative stand-stills as far as what happens in the open.
And I think the "Elektra is still dead" stuff was meant as a joke. Franco is still dead, and so on.
What bothered me was how broad the interview was, in terms of the political and social stuff. Would have been great to move from 'terrorists busting up parts of New York are barbarous' to 'My '300' was a heroic story, totally' to immediately calling Miller on those statements, and a 'when is mass-murdery death and assault okeh and when is it a case of "you assholes killed my neighbors!" and all? Is it heroic when it's a story, and not history or reality? Is the real event, then, Spartans and all, not heroic, or is it?
In fiction, these quick movements with little rational connection don't bother me at all, but in an interview, in a nonfictional setting, you have to be sensible and connect the dots, stop and think before responding, or else, what's the point?
It's not like he's dropped to Paty Cockrum territory.
Oh, crap: somebody needs to write a comic where somebody calls Magneto 'Sweet chunks!' With ass-shots in high-detail frilly panties.
Is the new issue of Ass-Bat as bad as folks are making it out? I still can't procure an issue.
And am I the only one who thinks - while I don't agree with Frank Miller the mysoginist, homophobe, or racist - that Miller might have some issues with transsexuals and specifically, body-modification along gender lines? There are positive examples, in his work of women, non-white folks of both genders, and homosexuals of both genders, but when somebody's moved from one gender to another or something similar, the genderfucking individual never comes off in a good light, do they? Intentional and meaningful, or just random chance portrayal?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
01:45 / 28.01.06
I like his new art style. I like DK2 right up until the dialogue when he's fighting the ex-Robin. That was realllly weird and kinda creeped me out. But then you start to do that thing where you think, "Well he's not saying it, Batman is."
 
 
Krug
07:19 / 28.01.06
Don't listen to them Frank, I want to listen to more of your ignorant, racist tribalist neocon shite. I'm making educated guesses so fill in the blanks! What did you do before there was Fox News?
 
 
Krug
07:22 / 28.01.06
Was I the only one more irritated by how he kept saying "Elektra is dead."

I think someone needs to show him this month's daredevil in the company of family and friends.
 
 
eddie thirteen
12:14 / 28.01.06
I don't think (based on his work and other interviews I've read) that Miller is so much racist and/or opposed to Islam as he is generally opposed to conservative religionists, period; with some justification, he seems to place much of the religious right in America in the same boat as Osama bin Laden. I suspect the "barbarian" comment has more to do with what Miller would consider a Dark Ages mindset than anything (intentionally) racial, and I further suspect he'd be as inclined to apply the term to, say, Pat Robertson -- but I can only speculate. A good interviewer (one less likely to mouthbreathe over the awesomeness of the subject's work) would have zeroed in on inflammatory comments like that and asked the subject to expand on them...

...which takes us back to the sorry state of the fan press. The journalistic failings of the piece don't let Miller off the hook, but do leave me less inclined to declare Miller a white devil and more inclined to wish for a better interview. I don't think this is a point that should have been left up to interpretation, and someone who (I'm sorry) was a little less obsessed with comic books and a little more aware of, y'know, everything else in the world, would surely have realized a few follow-up questions were in order here to clarify the subject's position.

As far as the Elektra thing goes, I do recall that the official word at Marvel when the character was brought back this most recent time was that Miller gave his approval. If this was not the case (and it would appear it wasn't), I can see why he'd be adamant about voicing his disapproval. Obviously, I wish he'd been as clear about things that have more relevance to the real world in which we all live. But I don't think clarifying his position in re: a character he created that has made others large amounts of money in express disregard of his wishes while those others claimed that he approved makes him some sort of retarded childman, no. Other things might; not that.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:04 / 28.01.06
He's a patently racist asshole and the apologism going on in this thread makes vomit rise in my throat.
 
 
The Falcon
23:46 / 28.01.06
Well, I'll go over the interview again, Flybs. You're quite possibly right, and as I say, I'd not've given the comment a second look if it weren't someone who's work I liked. I don't really want, in any way, to be an apologist for these views as interpreted by y'self and J. Fear, at all.

Of course, this is a bit've a switch from 'is this real?', but clearly you've had time to make your mind up.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:10 / 29.01.06
eddiethirteen, I totally agree on this point- "A good interviewer (one less likely to mouthbreathe over the awesomeness of the subject's work) would have zeroed in on inflammatory comments like that and asked the subject to expand on them..."

Because THIS was the part of the interview at which we get to choose whether he IS a racist fuck or not... (to my mind, I love his stuff- well, his good stuff, anyway- but ideologically have long had a problem with him, and it's precisely for this reason that I READ interviews with him...) a statement like that, on the face of it, I would say yes, Jack Fear's right, that's racism pure and simple. There could be other interpretations, but you'd really be reaching to look for them without any prompting.

(Yes, he's a libertarian, afaict. No, that's not a good thing, if you ask me. Many, many hideously misogynistic, racist fucks have been libertarians. I actually despise libertarianism as a philosphy- I think it's utterly selfish, and a breeding ground for hatred. But this is probably for another thread).

I do agree with him about the battle of Thermopylae being an incredibly heroic story, though. And I loved 300. And DKR. And Daredevil, and Year One and Give Me Liberty. And will continue to enjoy Sin City for as long as I can remember NOT to read interviews with the guy.
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:13 / 29.01.06
...Which is exactly the kind of statement that Miller would make about someone in an interview, I agree. It's harsh, absolutist, and very, very difficult to qualify. What does it really mean to call someone a "patently racist asshole?" Who holds the patent? It's a childish statement. It's not quite "Flyboy smash!" but it's close. I will agree that, in some respects, Miller may be an asshole, but that's a purely subjective call. "Patently," I think, is just there to make it sound a little nastier, so let's drop it. "Racist"...um...let's see, there's a history of non-caucasian leads in his comics, a film collaboration with an Hispanic director, comics collaborations with artists who also aren't white...I'm gonna go ahead and vote no. Insensitive?

Uh...yes. I really, really think he should have known how "barbarians" would sound in this context. I really, really think the drooling fanboy who conducted the interview should have called him on it. I personally feel Miller's bile came more out of a cultural bias than a racial one, but I would like to see that thinking unpacked, personally. Because I do find the statement troubling. I'm not willing to make a hardcore judgment on the basis of what is there, though -- to me, this is not a "Latin women with blonde hair all look like hookers" thing.
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:14 / 29.01.06
(The above meant in reply to Flyboy's post. Who knew so many of us were sitting here on Saturday night? I...I have a life...I swear...)
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
07:11 / 29.01.06
With eddie13 and Dunc on this matter. Flyboy, no matter how genial he can be, posts as bad as the statements in that interview were. Expand. Or shut up.
 
 
diz
07:54 / 29.01.06
Obviously, I can't speak for Flyboy, but I think it might be fair to interpret his most recent post as meaning something akin to this:

"I think Frank Miller's opinions, as expressed in that interview, are so morally offensive as to speak for themselves as to why Mr. Miller should be shunned as a reprehensible excuse for a human being. If you read that interview and it isn't immediately evident how appalling he is, than I don't know if you and I live in the same moral universe and I not only don't know how I would communicate with you, but I don't know why I would wish to."

Flyboy, stop me if I'm stepping over the line in interpreting your position.
 
 
The Falcon
12:17 / 29.01.06
Yeah, brilliant, diz. Thanks.

I don't appreciate particularly Brutus' characterisation of my thoughts, either. If you read the statement Jack F quotes with his emphasis (albeit qualified) then there's absolutely no way Flyboy is 'as bad'. Except in terms of oversimplification, anyway. Which is not as bad as the racism.

But we can try some variations on said (colon, bold mine) -

"Not to mention political satire. Look at the world. Almost half my country equates: flushing a Koran down a toilet with sawing the head off an innocent contractor, or using airplanes those barbarians could never have invented to slaughter thousands of my neighbors."

Is Frank part of this half? I'd suggest not, given he's contextually using this as the contemporary ripe sample for satire - this is only a distanced observation of the American political climate. What's unsaid there is interesting, though; presumably FM thinks that flushing a Koran down the toilet pales in comparison to killing people, in which case he's right - but again, there's a) something of a disconnect between Frank and reality/the people who think this is equivalent; I'd presume they are 'PC brigade'/'liberal' canards and b) no mention of invading another, unconnected Arab country and killing considerably more people as part of a 'response'. In which case, he ain't necessarily racist (on this evidence at least, but there's always tomorrow) but is dreadfully, fundamentally wrong as far as I'm concerned. In fact, it's terribly difficult to get much sense out of that section because whichever way you slice it, it is incredible verbal shite.

Which leads me to believe it is a 'real' interview, but there's something in the meter of it reads like it's been translated into Greek and back ('n' is that why he keeps going on about Elektra? 'cos it's a Greek interviewer? more idiocy, regardless); reads quite, quite oddly. There again, it may simply be the habit of comics authors speaking annoyingly like a lot of their characters; Bendis does, Ellis a bit.
 
 
eddie thirteen
15:29 / 29.01.06
Agreed on that score. Miller is either creating a straw man here (I don't know anyone who equates flushing the Koran with decapitating someone), or is just woefully out of touch, or is simply a frighteningly absolutist thinker (i.e., you find Koran abuse objectionable; hence, you must not find the execution of innocents objectionable -- there's no room in that worldview for finding both acts objectionable). Whatever the case may be, Miller's thought processes (as portrayed here) seem disturbingly simplistic.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:54 / 29.01.06
. What does it really mean to call someone a "patently racist asshole?" Who holds the patent?

Patently means "clearly". It is from the Latin patere, "to be wide open or accessible". A patent is a thing that is clearly and plainly demonstrating when an idea was had and by whom - derived from the word for an open letter granting a right - that is a court dispensation that could be shown to anyone to assert that right. So, what it means to call somebody a patently racist asshole is to call somebody an asshole who is clearly racist. It's perfectly good usage.

In the absence of a better interviewer, I fear the supposition that Miller thinks of Pat Robertson as a barbarian is precisely that - supposition. Likewise, Finderwolf, the moral equivalency he claims people are drawing between abusing the Koran and beheading people... who is drawing that equivalency? Have you actually heard anyone say that? Are there otherthings that Americans do to Iraqis which might be better comparisons? Have a think about who is controlling the discourse and the way you are being led to approach it here.

Conversely, I found the "Elektra is Dead" bit quite funny, and possibly even a bit self-mocking. Especially since Elektra is currently bouncing around in a world increasingly organised by Brian Michael Bendis, who is sort of Miller Lite.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:38 / 29.01.06
Incidentally:

"Racist"...um...let's see, there's a history of non-caucasian leads in his comics, a film collaboration with an Hispanic director, comics collaborations with artists who also aren't white...I'm gonna go ahead and vote no. Insensitive?

Sounds a bit "some of his best friends are..." to me. I don't think he has to be identified as having at some point bitched out every race to be identified as having racist views. In this case, he might be described as Islamophobic rather than racist, although muslims do tend to be a bit tan.
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:05 / 29.01.06
Yes, Haus, I know what "patently" means. I just can't agree that Miller is a racist asshole because he is SO a racist asshole is solid rhetoric. There's plenty of evidence to contradict it, and not much in its favor except for a distasteful reaction to one comment in an interview apparently conducted by someone who lacked the critical capacity to seize on something questionable (or even to recognize it as such).

A much better interview was conducted in TCJ's gigantic-ass Frank Miller interview compendium, and it is from this I draw my supposition that Miller is not singling out Middle Easterners as barbarians, but rather extending that title to religious/violent types in general:

(p. 114): What I couldn't stand was that I was all of a sudden hearing the president talking about a crusade. That's medieval thinking (italics mine). ...And I don't think that you can answer religious fundamentalism with the same thing and get a good result.

(p.117): ...I really don't see the difference between one [religious] radical and another. They both believe in super beings [Miller has at this point already mentioned that he is an atheist, so there's a certain condescension implied here]. ...To me, 9/11 focused how dangerous and horrible the effects of religion can be. That's another debate to be had that no one is having, because it all boils down to "My God can beat up your God."

I'm not at all saying this explains away or excuses the "barbarians" comment (or even that I agree with Miller 100% here -- I don't, and actually disagree with him on about three different levels at once, but that way lies tangent), but it is what I had as context when I read the linked-to interview. Make of it what you will.
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:16 / 29.01.06
Sounds a bit "some of his best friends are..." to me.

Well, sure, except that in this case, some of his best friends apparently indeed are.

I don't think he has to be identified as having at some point bitched out every race to be identified as having racist views. In this case, he might be described as Islamophobic rather than racist, although muslims do tend to be a bit tan.

True enough. And I do think it's safe to say that he's phobic on the subject of Islam, as well as the subject of Christianity, and most likely on Judaism as well. I am not convinced that this implies prejudice against any ethnic type, however (and I'm also far from convinced that it isn't closeminded and -- here it comes again -- extremely simplistic...in fact, I believe that it is...but that's not the conversation at hand).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:36 / 29.01.06
A much better interview was conducted in TCJ's gigantic-ass Frank Miller interview compendium, and it is from this I draw my supposition that Miller is not singling out Middle Easterners as barbarians, but rather extending that title to religious/violent types in general:

Except he isn't, is he? He is describing, specifically, the people who flew planes into buildings on the 11 September, and by association those who saw off contractors' heads. That I don't have a huge problem with, except describing such a small number of people as incapable of inventing powered flight is somewhat incoherent, so we have to go on and assume he means... what? All Muslims? All Arabs? That's a tricky one. That, I think, is a difficult question, in part because I doubt he has a clear answer to it himself.

So, in the context of that TCJ interview, it sounds more like he has an antipathy to all religions, and specifically all fundamentalist religions, but doesn't really have a clear idea of what that actually means.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:06 / 29.01.06
However, consider:

Soldiers destroying copies of the Koran, a holy book those barbarians could never have written


What would those Barbarians be in this case? It can't just be the soldiers, can it? Because nobody would expect a soldier to be able to write the Koran. Since these soldiers are not united by a single religious conviction (as indeed nor were the fairly disparate bunch of people who have been responsible for the varied acts of terror he describes), it can't be that, either. So what is it? Americans? Only the examples Miller cites are not from a single nation - we have Saudis, Iraqis, probably Syrians all in the mix, just for starters...

I think it's a very dodgy statement, and while it would have been nice if the interviewer had picked him up on it, it's not the interviewer's fault that he made it.
 
 
Michelle Gale
19:36 / 29.01.06
(call me crazy but)Maybe... just maybe he was being satirical with the jingoistic stuff. Seeing as he was answering a question about satire.
 
 
The Falcon
19:53 / 29.01.06
Well, we're now some stretch away from a patent racist though; I don't have a problem with the notions that Miller is quite likely an arsehole, and one who subscribes to a ropey system of beliefs, which may well have racist underpinnings, but it's not as cut-and-dried as Flyboy wanted to believe.

I'd like to hear a bit more from him, as I suspect he's jumped the gun a bit; maybe a drinky on Saturday and a sour turn of mood followed, I dunno.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:53 / 29.01.06
What? Sober as a judge.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:56 / 29.01.06
See dizfactor's comment, really. Why anyone would need to is beyond me, unless it's a) political naivity on massive scale, or b) wilful self-delusion caused by blind hero-worship.
 
  

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