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Batman Vs Frank Miller

 
  

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The Knowledge +1
17:52 / 28.11.01
People probably said Aliens 2 couldn't possibly beat the original, and look what happened...

What about volumes 2 + 3 of The Invisibles? What abot every sequel that appears in a different story in Hellblazer?

Check what Joe queseda just said in a recent editorial:

"First, let me congratulate everyone involved with DK2. From Frank Miller to Lynn Varley to Bob Schreck and his staff. It looks like the first issue is going to break all sorts of sales records and I can't tell you how happy I am to see it! In the immortal words of Dr. Frankenstein (or was it Gene Wilder?), "It's ALIVE!" The comicbook industry is ALIVE!!!"

I bet he's read it, and I bet he knows it's fucking shit-hot and he's loving the buzz.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
20:05 / 28.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Knowledge +1:
People probably said Aliens 2 couldn't possibly beat the original, and look what happened...


Aliens by James Cameron is a fun popcorn movie, but in comparison to Ridley Scott's Alien, it's pretty awful. Aliens lacks all of the subtlety and genius that Alien has in spades...


and I say this in my obnoxious 'voice of god' tone...



[ 28-11-2001: Message edited by: Flux = R to the Izz-ad ]
 
 
sleazenation
20:44 / 28.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Knowledge +1:


Check what Joe queseda just said in a recent editorial:

I bet he's read it, and I bet he knows it's fucking shit-hot and he's loving the buzz.


actually when you read it Quesada doesn't say a thing about the relative merits of the story-- he just thinks its great to have a comic that energises the fans and is a money spinner for a comic publisher.

good for him, but while a project like dk2 appeals to a continually dwindling number of fans (and make no bones about it the comic industry IS shrinking) the fans i don't really see it having the kind of impact outside the comic industry. Maybe it might have if it hadn't taken 15 years to happen or if Miller had been given absolute carte blanche for a superman title, but i don't see this title as doing any lasting job of expanding the comic industry.

This is above and beyond the fact that, i do not expect the title to be worth the price of entry on a creative level.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
20:52 / 28.11.01
I've seen some ads in normal magazines for it, and they are so poorly done... it's very difficult to understand what exactly the story is and why it *might* be different from any other of the roughly 8,000 Batman comics released every month besides noting that The Dark Knight Returns was a 'classic'. The ads are graphically quite ugly, and the DK2 is so action movie generic and blah that it probably makes people think less of it just because of its presentation.

This ties into my feeling that one of the biggest problems with comics, DC and Marvel in particular, is that somehow graphic design just slipped right past them...why don't they fire their designers and hire fresh exciting young graphic designers and make the comics look cool, and have really slick adverts for them? That would be a very smart move that no one seems to be willing to make...even when they do try to make them look better, like the redesigns of New X-Men and Uncanny X-Men etc, it still is very far behind the times in terms of graphic design... I've shown those to graphic designer friends of mine, and they are just horrified by how horribly designed they are... how do you expect people to look at things that are so incredibly ugly?

Back to topic : I'm going to stop by and check out the Frank Miller book signing at the Virgin Megastore in Union Square next week... I'm very very very curious to see who will be there.


I just don't get comic companies. Why bother pushing something like Batman when the non-comics market clearly has no interest in Batman, or otherwise they'd buy the comics... Batman comics don't need advertising, everyone knows they are always there. and why bother buying a Batman comic when you can watch the cartoon on tv for free, and that cartoon is often roughly nine million times better than the comic?

Why not put the Time Warner cash in getting something silly and pop like the recent Philip Bond Angel & The Ape series in people's hands...that comic is goofy, fun, sexy, and cute, it's ultra pop. Gasp: teenage girls might even like it! I know the whole industry wants to pretend that there isn't a legion of arty chicks out there who might buy comics if they weren't so fucking ugly and boy-centric all the time. That comic could get a larger audience outside of the people who normally buy comics, people who normally wouldn't dig that comic at all...

[ 28-11-2001: Message edited by: Flux = The Classical ]
 
 
sleazenation
09:02 / 29.11.01
I'm surprized that any advertising has been done outside the comic industry that it has is a good thing, that it could be done better is lamentable.

what might work better is paul levitz taking a more quesda-esque role as publisher- personally pushing his books maybe even attempting to pre-serialise it in the new yorker or similar magazine. But as i say this is about marketing rather than content.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
09:02 / 29.11.01
quote:Originally posted by sleazenation:
I'm surprized that any advertising has been done outside the comic industry that it has is a good thing, that it could be done better is lamentable.


I disagree. I think that if a product is going to be advertised in mainstream markets, it should marketed to them as well. The advertising for "DK2" in the mass market is identical to that of the advertising for comics journals and DC in-house ads. Which is horrible...it means the same poor standards applied to in-house ads are out there competing with ads by companies who work with advertising, marketing, and PR firms who know exactly what they are doing. If DC decided to utilize the advertising/marketing power of its sister Warner Bros/AOL companies, then putting advertisements for it in mainstream publications would be a good idea. The way they are doing it, it's just one more crappy comic with one more crappy comic ad, and it probably does more to hurt the industry than to help it.

Also, that the first big comic to be pushed by a publisher into regular ads in regular publications is a SEQUEL to a comic that was notable over 15 years ago is a bad sign... I think it says to the public "hi, we're comics, and the most notable thing we'd like to point out to you is a retread of a story that was cool a long time ago about a character who you're probably sick of and/or associate with camp, by a guy whose star power is fading fast".

That's not a very confident first step in the right direction, I'd say...
 
 
CameronStewart
09:02 / 29.11.01
>>>The ads are graphically quite ugly<<<

Well, at least they're appropriate to the product....



(runs)
 
 
Sax
09:02 / 29.11.01
When's this fucking thing out, anyway? My local comic shop has those gruesome ads up, but then they've only just got New X-Men 116, so it could be years before they get it.
 
 
bio k9
09:02 / 29.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = The Classical:
I know the whole industry wants to pretend that there isn't a legion of arty chicks out there who might buy comics if they weren't so fucking ugly and boy-centric all the time.


For a split second I thought you were saying the "arty chicks" were "fucking ugly and boy-centric".
 
 
The Natural Way
09:02 / 29.11.01
Y'know, I always find myself agreeing with everything Flux says about comic marketing.
 
 
deja_vroom
12:26 / 29.11.01
I’ve just visited their website. It’s awful. There is something terribly wrong with Miller’s style. You can see something underneath it, perhaps forming or dissolving, which hints at a nice stylized, slightly anime-esque style (like Wonder Woman’s hands and feet),but when it comes, for instance, to women’s faces and body posture, it’s all clichéd femme-fatale crap.
Why did he insist in draw the thing? Wouldn’t be enough for him to write it?

(Of course not, silly!)
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:20 / 29.11.01
so... what's the site???

URL please?
 
 
Sharkgrin
19:23 / 29.11.01
Didn't the DKR give birth to Sin City's Marv, who gave birth to Miho, who gave birth to <another surly, violent anti-heroe whose mold Miller can't seem to escape>???

<Continues sawing the legs and arms off the tourniquet-bound ninja/assassin (who likes to kill prostitutes)>
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
18:49 / 30.11.01
its going to be a hoot when DK2 hits the stands and turns out be brilyant.

you lot'll be like this

and me and a few others'll be like this:

and

heh-heh.
 
 
The Knowledge +1
09:00 / 01.12.01
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
09:13 / 01.12.01
There is a feature article in this week's Entertainment Weekly (a Time Warner AOL publication, mind you) about "DK2"--- they have two pages of the comic in there, and it is incomprehensible in terms of design...I've been reading comics since I was 8, and I've honestly seen clearer page compositions in ROB LIEFELD COMICS. I imagine that to the average person who has trouble even navigating the most straight foward comic layouts would have a real hard time working their way through this design nightmare. The dialog sounds like Frank Miller is a huge No Logo/OK Computer/Fight Club fan. Which I'm not saying is either a good or a bad thing. Okay, I will say a bad thing: it's a bit on the trite side... "we're well paid slaves! WHO WILL STOP THIS?" eek!

The article is okay, it's a fluff piece that speaks to DC and Miller's selfimportance and the "fact" that Dark Knight Returns is a classic. They also go on to discuss that Miller's Batman is essentially a terrorist, and draws parallels to Osama bin Laden. Apparently something in issue #2 will seem like a reaction to Septemeber 11th, but they insist that the issue was in the can before that happened. Bob Shreck makes some claim about this being a work of 'great fiction'.


I sometimes feel like the only guy in the world who thinks the original Dark Knight is nothing more than a fairly good Batman story, no more no less. Arkham Asylum and The Killing Joke piss all over it, too...

[ 01-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Yr Fact-Checking Cuz ]
 
 
[N.O.B.O.D.Y.]
09:13 / 01.12.01
And Miller's Year One too. That Batman is much more interesting; and it's a story, not a collection of moments like Dark Knight. I like Dark Knight, but it makes me think that while Miller was doing it he thought that he would never again do a Batman comic; so he had to put in there every idea that he thought that might be cool, no matter that it would add to the plot or not... On the other hand, Year One is a far better story; and it doesn't hurt that the art is superb
 
 
moriarty
02:59 / 03.12.01
Despite my disdain for this project (and it has nothing to do with the art, so don't bother lambasting me for judging it before seeing it, you bastards), I am impressed by one thing.

The President of the United States is named Rickard.

Let the good times roll.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
03:13 / 03.12.01
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:


The President of the United States is named Rickard



I don't get it. Please tell me why this may be significant...I really want to know.
 
 
The Knowledge +1
06:14 / 03.12.01
Blade Runner baby - He finds out he's a replicant!!!
 
 
Zen bullet
06:53 / 03.12.01
The Killing Joke? What? - just is not true. DK is riproaring fun, whereas the Killing Joke is pretty dull. Real substandard, Moore-doing-superheroes-when-he'd-rather-be-doing something-else-but-it-pays, fare. He didn't even want to be doing it that much, but stuck with it 'cause he was commited contractualy and didn't want to fuck over Bolland. And it shows.
 
 
sleazenation
07:00 / 03.12.01
wasn't ricard the teenage president in prez?
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
07:01 / 03.12.01
And Arkham Asylum's all style no substance, it's not a very well told story.
 
 
CameronStewart
10:38 / 03.12.01
>>>Blade Runner baby - He finds out he's a replicant!!!<<<

The character in Blade Runner is Rick Deckard.

Rickard is Prez.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
10:52 / 03.12.01
Ah, Blade Runner. The best I could do trying to figure out what the hell you all could mean is that it's a combo of the names of the commander officers from Star Trek: The Next Generation, Riker and Picard.

Nah, I maintain that Arkham Asylum and The Killing Joke are far better than The Dark Knight Returns, and not because they are particular genius stories or anything, but just because they are better than The Dark Knight.... Alan Moore and Grant Morrison on an off day are still waaaaaaaaay better than Frank Miller at his best. It's true.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
12:01 / 03.12.01
Well we can argue about this to the cows come home and I can tell that pizza is the best tasting food. It's all a matter of taste.

As for writer vs writer, Morrison is able to do what he does on the backs of writers like Miller and Moore, it's a difficult call to make. I'm not sure we would have had the Invisibles without DKR but I do think that Miller is dated. He did very well in the 80's not so good in the 90's.

I don't think Miller's a particularly groundbreaking writer I just think he writes good well told stories.

(But I don't like Arkham Asylum and I think Killing Joke's pretty average and a bit dissapointing from Moore.)
 
 
CameronStewart
12:08 / 03.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Yr Fact Checking Cuz:
[QB]Ah, Blade Runner. The best I could do trying to figure out what the hell you all could mean is that it's a combo of the names of the commander officers from Star Trek: [QB]



What we all mean is this.

[ 03-12-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
16:57 / 03.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Yr Fact Checking Cuz:

Nah, I maintain that Arkham Asylum and The Killing Joke are far better than The Dark Knight Returns, and not because they are particular genius stories or anything, but just because they are better than The Dark Knight.... Alan Moore and Grant Morrison on an off day are still waaaaaaaaay better than Frank Miller at his best. It's true.


Flux = wrong
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
22:30 / 03.12.01
From the Chicago Sun-Times. So bad it's funny.

quote:For a guy who's pegged as the father of the ''grim and gritty'' style of comics, writer/artist Frank Miller comes off as a very affable sort, who laughs easily and has a dry wit.

His ''Dark Knight Returns'' in 1986 redefined Batman in a three-issue, out-of-continuity story. In it, a retired Bruce Wayne is a decrepit alcoholic, a man far removed from his original ideas of justice. He has a new Robin, a spunky girl, who believes in him.

Superman, a sell-out now working for the government, is no longer Batman's best friend. In fact, they hate each other. The Joker is an over-the-hill laughingstock.

Basically, Gotham City in the future is very bleak, devoid of hope and in need of a hero or two.

This revised version of Batman was a hit with readers 15 years ago. ''Dark Knight Returns'' was a commercial success and an artistic triumph for Miller as well. Seeing how readers embraced the darkness of the once-sunny characters, the comics industry pumped out darker and more violent stories about superheroes for years.

When filmmaker Tim Burton directed the edgy ''Batman'' movie in 1989, he used Miller's interpretation as a blueprint.

Miller laughs when asked if he is indeed the guy who started the trend. Is he the real Father of Grim and Gritty Comics?

''There are a lot of people who start a trend,'' he says. ''Let's just say I have visitation rights.''

''The Dark Knight Strikes Again,'' the long-awaited sequel, is out on Wednesday. It's the first issue of three 80-page, softcover comics, set three years after the first story.

Miller has completed the first two issues and is working on the third now.

It may or may not be finished for a February release.

Why do a sequel now? ''Because I had a story to tell,'' he says simply. ''. . . Almost every time I finish a story, I have a sequel in mind.''

In this sequel, ''Batman isn't the guy who makes the story happen,'' Miller. ''He is very much the master of the scenes behind the game.

''The other characters are given the stage an awful lot. It's just not a Batman comic.''

In this story, Batman and his new Robin go on a trail to find what happened to members of the Justice League who haven't been seen in years. Wonder Woman, Flash and the Atom are primary characters.

Miller also has created characters and successors to well-known heroes.

Yet, don't expect grim and gritty from Miller this time around.

''I wasn't going to do anything redundant,'' he says. ''This one is much more an exploration of the character of the superhero. It's me fiddling around with DC [Comics'] pantheon.

''They have these wonderfully rich characters, and one-by-one I am exploring them and showing what makes them fun. I use them as I have before to conduct my satire of the contemporary world.

''The world has become a kinder, gentler Fascist state. All the news is good, but we don't have a Bill of Rights anymore.''

Already, advance sales orders are booming for ''Strikes Back.'' The numbers are double those of most comics.

Since his 1986 success, Miller has been keeping his hands in comics, writing mainly non-mainstream fare such as ''Sin City,'' crime comics and ''300,'' a historical series.

''I have very fresh eyes,'' he says, because he has been away from the monthly grind of writing superhero comic books. ''. . . It's an advantage I have right now. I can be a bit like an 8-year-old and see everything new again.''

 
 
Mr Tricks
22:42 / 04.12.01
''The world has become a kinder, gentler Fascist state. All the news is good, but we don't have a Bill of Rights anymore.''


ahhhh.... life immatates art.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:04 / 27.01.06
Is this interview real? Because if it is, then... well.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
15:12 / 27.01.06
Frank Kilroy Miller?
 
 
FinderWolf
16:47 / 27.01.06
What was so surprising or crazy about that interview? Certainly seems real to me. And Miller is just being Miller in that interview.

Love the B&W Dave Gibbons portrait of Miller at the end of the interview.

I'm surprised he didn't comment more about his run on All-Star Batman...if there was any really incendiary stuff in an Frank Miller interview, I'd expect it to be about that (like when Miller said 'everyone's up in arms because I have Batman say 'goddamn' when in fact people's critiques are mostly about the over-the-top characterization of Bats, or the slowness of plot, or the 4 pages spent on Vicki Vale cheesecake stuff).

I'm about to go look up 'Boreas' from the bit in the interview where Miller says "Superman must be acknowledged as Power. He is Boreas." Is this a Greek character I haven't heard of? (Maybe a character name I'm not remembering from Miller's 300?)
 
 
FinderWolf
16:51 / 27.01.06
Boreas:

"The Greek god of the North Wind who lived in Thrace. He is depicted as being winged, extremely strong, bearded and normally clad in a short pleated tunic. He is the son of Eos and Astraeus, and the brother of Zephyrus, Eurus and Notus.

Boreas has two sons, two daughters and twelve mares which can race over the ground without destroying the grain. When the Persian navy of Xerxes threatened the city of Athens, the Athenians begged his assistance. The Great Wind of the Wintery North blew his anger at the Persians and 400 Persian ships sank immediately. Among other violent acts he abducted Oreithyia, the daughter of the king of Athens, when she was playing on the banks of the Ilissus. In Latin, he is called Aquilo. "
 
 
The Falcon
18:33 / 27.01.06
*sigh* Findo, without consultation with him, I'm going to suggest that Flybs is referring to this bit:

"...9/11 did change everything: the West is confronted with a fascist, misogynist, homophobic, genocidal blood enemy that is dedicated to the annihilation of everything civilization has achieved in three millennia. At the very least, my idea of what makes a true villain has changed. An existential threat to everything in the world that's worth a damn clarifies the mind."

I don't really have an argument with that characterisation of extremist Islam; it'd've been nice to have it qualified with some counterpoints, and really the 'true villainy' bit's guff and simplistic in the extreme, but I've always suspected Miller of - I dunno - libertarian, at the least, leanings. Don't mean I can't enjoy his superheroes.
 
  

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