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Batman Vs Frank Miller

 
  

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Spaniel
00:03 / 26.02.06
Used the word "we".
 
 
Spaniel
00:23 / 26.02.06
Matt, I fail to see what you're getting at.

At least, if you understood my post as it was intended (I am a little drunk so it's possible that I was a little unclear).
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:32 / 26.02.06
Uh...no, look, Al Qaeda DOES exist. The situation is indeed complicated, but it's not Fox Mulder complicated. I mean, come on.
 
 
Spaniel
00:41 / 26.02.06
Al Qaeda does exist? In the way that it is habitually presented to us in the western media?

This is a debate for another thread.
 
 
Spaniel
00:46 / 26.02.06
Sorry, not trying to sound like a conspiracy nut (fuck me, I've been posting to this site for years, I would've thought someone might've noticed that I hate that kind of thinking). It's just that Al-Qaeda almost certainly doesn't exist as a well financed, homogenous international body dedicated to the downfall of the western powers.
 
 
eddie thirteen
01:51 / 26.02.06
Oh, THAT Al Qaeda. Yeah. I don't know that the western media (aside from Fox News) still portrays them that way; the Bush administration certainly does. Increasingly, I think that has less to do with willful misrepresentation than an inability on the Bush people's part to apprehend any situation more complicated than...well...Batman punching Osama Hitler in the face. I used to believe otherwise, but then Bush's supposed puppetmaster got trashed in the woods and shot his buddy in the face. If the guy pulling the strings is an even bigger dumbass than Bush himself, which now seems to be the case, then much of what I once chalked up to malice and deception I'm now forced to attribute to ineptitude and the lasting effects of fetal alcohol syndrome -- anyway, yeah, we're going off-topic.
 
 
This Sunday
01:53 / 26.02.06
I have serious doubts as to the sort of info we get regularly from the media on al Qaeda, too, and when I said/wrote that I can't back it wholeheartedly, I meant just that - not that I supported it entirely. I've met pilots who flew for the Germans in WW2, I've known people who were involved on at least four sides of that war, as combatants or civilians, and I can't say rightly that I'd like to see anyone who ever served as a Nazi soldier/paper-pusher what have you smashed into the ground and set on fire. And since I still hold a bit of a grudge over some battles on US soil not much older (and some more recent) than the Second World War, I can't comfortably fall back onto the 'it was a long time ago' clause. And neither did comics, since they, as others have pointed out and can probably document better than I, were doing this sort of superhero-smackdown-on-current-enemy deal before Miller even picked up a pen.
I hope Miller will do something approaching intelligent, and that he's not going to be racist about it. I don't know, and nobody really will, until the book comes out or some previews are released or something. There is historical precedent for a higher ratio of racism in comics that any other field/medium I can think of, from John Byrne's many bon mots, to the fact that ninety-seven percent of Native American characters are still drawn wearing buckskins or using the terms 'brave' or 'pale eyes' in normal, contemporous settings, un-ironic-like. Superhero books have a tendency to be, yes, awfully idiotic and simplistic in their political expressions, sometimes to their benefit ('The Authority', 'The Pro', 'Dark Knight Strikes Again') and often just making asses of themselves and making all comics, by connection, seem the stupidest material available on the face of the earth; that damned issue of Spider-Man where we get to watch Doom and Magneto and possibly Charles Manson and resurrected ghost of Hitler weep at the worst thing that ever happened in the history of the (real or Marvel) world. Because nobody'd ever knocked over a building before or, oh, killed a whole lot of people in one go. Apparently. Hey, it made Doom cry, who are we to criticize?
But there are some intelligent, good politicized comics. They do exist. 'The Invisibles' or 'The Filth' spring right to mind. 'Brought to Light' had its moments. Whoever did 'You're Wrong' for the 'World War 3' anthology.
Then there's the straight out no angles satirical stuff that comprised most of 'Transmetropolitan' and 'Boondocks'.
The very excellent 'Pogo' didn't necessarily shy away from politics, even if it rarely used immediately recognizable caricatures of current concerns, in the same was as, say, Flash's bunny ears at the end of Miller's '...Strikes Again'.
I mean, Erik Larsen had his fin-headed lovely deck Prezzie Bush right there on the cover not too long ago. And it was cool. It was a fake, shapeshifted not-Bush, if I remember rightly, but I don't think Dragon knew it at the time. He just thought the American President messed with him a bit too much and did something about it. And damned if it didn't send a little thrill throught the spines of many a reader who could never admit it out loud because we have the Patriot Act to keep that sort of outburst checked.
 
 
eddie thirteen
02:32 / 26.02.06
It's probably unfair to single out comics as a particularly racist medium -- though there is a greater potential for racist depictions of minority characters than one would find in film or television, as comics characters are wholly the product of the creators. That is to say, as painful as it sometimes was (to cite a very recent example) to watch Angel and see what fresh horror of racial stereotyping Joss Whedon had in mind for the character of Gunn this week (would he refer to Fred as a "hot mama"? would he allude to his street gang past? would he again lower his head and refer to himself as "the muscle," because he couldn't possibly be expected to intellectually equal his white counterparts?), there was at least an actual black man portraying the character. In mainstream comics, you have (often -- usually -- and, several decades ago, all but exclusively) white creators in total control of the way minorities are depicted. Something like the depiction of Japanese people in '40s comics is obviously repulsive (though it's a depiction indistinguishable from the one found on many WWII propaganda posters of the day); but, as you say, potentially much worse is the more insidious stereotyping perpetuated by creators who should know better, and many of whom ironically probably think they're being progressive by including minority characters. I'm sure that Marvel thought it was doing a good thing by giving Luke "Sweet Christmas!" Cage his own book back in the '70s; for that matter, I'm sure they thought they were doing a good thing by giving Luke "bitchez n hoez" Cage his own book just a few years ago. Point blank, there need to be more minority creators in the industry. It might take a while for that to make a difference, and it might help if in general the caliber of mainstream comics creators were a little higher, but...
 
 
matthew.
02:54 / 26.02.06
So if I can get my smash-Nazi thrills, I can't wholeheartedly let someone else be denied their smash-al Qaeda fix.

That's my point. One villain is as good as another.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:04 / 27.02.06
Yes, Matt, we all understand that it's distasteful (and entirely fallacious) to characterise German soldiers as a bunch of evil Nazis who deserve to be turned into a human fireball/punched very, very hard in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that there are other factors @ work that preclude easy comparisons between depictions of Nazi thumping and Al Qaeda thumping. Boboss addresses some of them in his posts.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:38 / 03.03.06
In case anyone still thought that Miller was not 100% serious and committed in his fight against the evil Muslims who want to destroy the world (ahem), his appearance at the NYCC ought to clear that up. A lot of it is reported rather than directly quoted speech, but you get the idea:

If, Brownstein asked, images have that much power, as indicated by the so called cartoon jihad that sprung up as a result of a Danish cartoon, then what in Miller's opinion is the responsibility of the image makers.

Miller believes that the "cartoon jihad" is simply another ploy to raise the anger of an element that is dedicated to the downfall of civilization, and not a true and natural reaction to the art.

The jihadists are being written off, much like how the civilized world tried to convince itself that Hitler wasn't a real threat. Because the goal of world domination seems crazy to us, we convince ourselves they can't succeed. This is a response that, by Miller's estimation, is not serving western civilization well.

But image makers do have a responsibility, in Miller's view. And that responsibility is to a do a good job. To try and represent the truth as they see it. A lot of artists and image makers are shirking this now, trying to skirt the issue because they have a fear of being blown up or otherwise injured.

...

Miller feels that the story of "300"-- where a small band of Spartan warriors fend off a vast Persian army in a battle that probably saved modern civilization-still has relevance today, reflecting the struggle in the middle east and the fight of modern society against certain fundamentalist Islamic groups.

...

When asked whether he plans on making fun of certain figures or not, Miller said that he simply makes fun of whoever is in charge. Right now, though, he has a strong interest in the survival of western civilization, a theme that informs his work.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
11:00 / 03.03.06
It's difficult to see how this is going to be handled sensitively, certainly.

In the 'two for the price of one' style of the movies though, which member of the caped crusader's rogues gallery does everyone feel Osama Bin Laden should be teamed up with in this?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
11:11 / 03.03.06
You think he'd have time to fight some rogue gallery goofball while he's up against the terrorists? What are you kid, stupid? He's the goddamn Batman!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:28 / 03.03.06
Miller feels that the story of "300"-- where a small band of Spartan warriors fend off a vast Persian army in a battle that probably saved modern civilization


If anyone can explain how a battle fought in 490BC could save a civilisation that would not exist until two and a half thousand years later, I'd be frightened but ready to learn. I very much hope that this is a gloss by a very stupid transcriber, because otherwise it says something very depressing indeed about Frank Miller.
 
 
Michelle Gale
14:05 / 03.03.06
Miller feels that the story of "300"-- where a small band of Spartan warriors fend off a vast Persian army in a battle that probably saved modern civilization-still has relevance today, reflecting the struggle in the middle east and the fight of modern society against certain fundamentalist Islamic groups

Surely that argument works both ways?,

The September 11th bombers (and "Al Quida") were arguably doing the same thing as the Spartans. The rationale and romantacism of the 300 Spartans defending western civilisation from an overwhelming force is the same as "Al Quida" (in their eyes) defending the Islamic world from the overwhelming force of western cultural imperialism.

So Mr Millers logic is pretty much the same as the people hes railing against.
 
 
John Octave
14:42 / 03.03.06
In the 'two for the price of one' style of the movies though, which member of the caped crusader's rogues gallery does everyone feel Osama Bin Laden should be teamed up with in this?

None of them, of course. If the 9/11 issue of Amazing Spider-Man has taught us anything, it's that no matter how much death and destruction a supervillain is responsible for, no matter how callously they have treated human life in the past, in the aftermath of a Muslim terrorist attack on America, that supervillain will look at the wreckage and CRY because EVEN THEY CAN FEEL.

Wait, no, I change my vote to Signalman. That would be sweet.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:38 / 02.09.06
THE FLAG. THE FLAG. THE KIDS THESE DAYS DON'T UNDERSTAND THE FLAG. THEY'RE SOFT AND WEAK. THE TERRISTS HATE OUR FLAG. DON'T GO INTO SHOCK, OLD MAN.

Frank Miller will read an essay in which he discusses his upbringing and newfound belief in patriotism and the U.S. flag on September 11th as part of NPR’s This I Believe series which airs on Morning Edition every Monday.

...

After never fully believing in patriotism and the U.S. flag, Miller discusses how the events of 9/11 shaped his newfound belief in patriotism and the flag. In discussing 9/11, Miller says, “I draw and write comic books. One thing my job involves is making up bad guys. Imagining human villainy in all its forms. Now the real thing had showed up. The real thing murdered my neighbors. In my city. In my country.” Miller adds, “Patriotism, I now believe, isn’t some sentimental, old, conceit. It’s self-preservation. I believe patriotism is central to a nation’s survival.”
 
 
electric monk
15:14 / 02.09.06
The scars go deep, too deep.

I close my eyes and listen.
Not fooled by sight, I see him...

...as he is.


A sad, fear-devoured fucker.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:23 / 02.09.06
Oh, Frank. Oh dear.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
17:45 / 02.09.06
by the beard of Mad Johnny Byrne!

dear Christ, another one gone mad by ink contamination.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
19:42 / 02.09.06
This just in: System error at Newsarama causes the words 'huffing paint thinner out of a sandwich bag' to appear as 'Patriotism'.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:35 / 02.09.06
Is Frank going to emerge unscathed from the war he's apparently been fighting in his head recently, do we think?

OR IS HE GOING TO ...

CARRY THE SCARS ... LIKE BADGES OF ... HONOUR, YES LIKE THAT ... DON'T GO INTO SHOCK, OLD MAN, TAKE SOME SPEED, OR SOMETHING, and so forth.
 
 
Spaniel
07:55 / 03.09.06
I'm kind of enjoying watching Frank Miller come into his spesh new headspace, it's like an enormous car crash (planned by terrorists, natch) involving tanks and huge articulated lorries.
 
 
Axolotl
12:59 / 03.09.06
Am I the only one hoping Frank Miller's internal monlogue is as envisaged within this thread?
I think that would almost make up for the increasingly bizarre rants he seems to be producing instead of proper comics.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
11:57 / 04.09.06
What's worrying with Miller (and Byrne, Sim et al) is that it seems a lifetime slumped over a drawing board does tend to drive one insane. As someone aspiring to make a living thus, I now have to ask myself..

How do I feel about THE FLAG????
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
22:07 / 04.09.06
i luv AMERICAN FLAGG, heard there was an omnibus collection coming from Dynamic Forces.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
14:45 / 11.09.06
Listen up and listen good you godless commie pinkos: Frank 'The Tank' Miller tells it like it is on NPR.
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
09:56 / 12.09.06
"I know how it feels to face an existential menace."

Me too. Jean-Paul Sartre once fired a catapult full of poo at me.
 
 
Mug Chum
19:41 / 15.02.07
Sorry to dig up this old thread, but having just seen this:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7002481

... I just had to.

He talks about 5 minutes around the 30 minute mark (is streaming, so just click away) about the "state of the union". Maybe this was posted somewhere else on the 'lith, but this one looked like the most right one to do so.

After this one I'm pretty sure that Miller's "subversive" traits in his works and characters are just from a paranoid and extremely afraid little boy (just check his voice if you can, and the same "rethoric"), not from any sort of libertarian fountain.

And now I just can't stop imagining that if he wasn't in comics, he'd just be the sort of people in those paranoid "militias" you see in Michael Moore's films (you know, guns beers & couch...). You know, the sort of "Batman takes down the government because they wanted to take his guns away from him, undermine our fortress for our enemies! yada yada!"
(usually, if you extend that hypothetical thought into two more phrases you'd get some even nastier things that Miller doesn't appear to have any traces of, if you go by his interviews -- I mean, I can't imagine even someone with such traces verbalizing them in such interviews but... -- but it marries quite perfectly if you bring up his works).

I even came to the point of thinking he's taking the piss, it's a big interview-persona whatever, he just said "fuck it" like ASBRTBW, but no. It seems more appropriate towards far-far-extreme-extremist-right-wing Jack Bauer fantasies (not dissing Jack here, ok?) than what I used to think Batman in DKR was about when I was a teenager.

That's my take combining all interviews I read with him and his works. If I'd only heard this one alone, I'd just figure he was like that Jack D. Ripper from "Dr. Strangelove", but with a crying-like voice 'cause he doesn't have the power to send nukes into his ENEMIES!!!.
 
 
Mug Chum
19:52 / 15.02.07
Oh.

And LOTS of more racists rants. "Barbaric culture that couldn't ever invent a microphone" etc.

"They genetically alter their daughters"???
(that's the sort of stuff that makes me think he's taking the piss, if wasn't about to cry appealing to the nation to take arms)
 
 
FinderWolf
18:36 / 30.07.08
Oddly, Rich Johnston reports that Batman: Holy Terror or Batman: Holy War will have one key word removed from it's title: Batman. He further reports that not only will the title not have Batman in it, but the book will not either.

What gives?!?! Is Miller just binning the whole book, or is he re-working it for it to be about regular blokes fighting terrorists and not Batman? I have heard that Miller put this book aside to work on The Spirit movie, but this is a strange development, no...? You'd think that Miller's buzz/reputation being pretty high right now (before The Spirit opens and if it bombs, his rep. might go down with it as far as the Hollywood crowd is concerned), DC wouldn't want Miller to leave a major new Batman story uncompleted.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
19:45 / 30.07.08
a strange development indeed...

my fanboy antennas caught vibrations that this has a Time Warner hand all over it. the book possibly caught their attention after Miller's name was made more prominent in Hollywood as of late.

maybe they thought about looking into what the guy who came up with the "she's my mother, she's my lover" line for THE SPIRIT was doing in other hot properties.

and realized they wouldn't look good with such a lucrative property as Batman punching Arabs while spitting insults between grinding teeth... not as cool in Obama times as it might have been in W.'s.
 
 
dark horse
20:04 / 30.07.08
i don't get it though, surely even if you hate bush and the "war on terror" we can all agree that al-queada are some sick fucks who it would be cool to see the batman take out?

this kind of censorship really sucks.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:59 / 30.07.08
Odd man part deux!
 
 
Triplets
21:10 / 30.07.08
Who rides the stallion?
 
  

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