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Batman Vs Frank Miller

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21:16 / 29.01.06

Maybe... just maybe he was being satirical with the jingoistic stuff.

Ahh, the good old 'it was a JOKE!!1!!!' defence/backtrack. Because Miller is, as we know, famed for his satirical deftness.

Regrettable Juvenilia

21:26 / 29.01.06

Incidentally, this is in no way inconsistent with Miller's politics as previously presented. I remember reading an interview in which, when talking about censorship, he advises people to beware liberals as much as the Christian right, because where the latter use a hammer, the former "use a scalpel". So we shouldn't be surprised that he buys into and propogates the illusion that half of the US consists of crazy PC pinko Koran-loving liberals. And, to pick just one example from his work, in DKR the attempts to rehabilitate Batman's rogues gallery are as much a satire on the idea of rehabilitation (as opposed to BRUTALLY BRUTAL VIOLENT RETRIBUTION), as any of the satire about the US government.

21:41 / 29.01.06

I suppose there was the subtle caricaturing of pulp gender politics throughout Sin City and, er, everything else he's ever written.

02:02 / 30.01.06

Yeah, I don't buy that at all. I'm sure that Miller was quite serious. Since all the usual debates-about-a-popular-creator tropes are coming out to play on this one, I'll go ahead and say that while I have immense respect for Miller as a creator, hero worship really isn't my thing. His views are not my own; they sometimes seem to intersect, but his positions are (as Haus noted) often incoherent, and frequently self-contradicting. Some of his ideas are just wrongheaded and dangerous. Some of them make sense, at least in part; it is unwise to presume that all liberals are anti-censorship, but it's a sign that one hasn't been checking in with reality to imply that a liberal is as likely to be a censor as a conservative.

Plus...you know...yeah. Not the best view of women.

And all that sucks. None of it puts him in the Klan.

03:09 / 30.01.06

And all that sucks. None of it puts him in the Klan.

I think part of the problem here has to do with the relationship between Frank Miller and his work. I think a lot of people who are into his work have, in the past, read it as ironic and critical, e.g. reading DKR as a critical deconstruction of Batman and caped vigilantes in general, basically making explicit the normally implicit fascist elements of the Batman myth, or reading Sin City as a critique or parody of noir.

A significant portion of the stature he has in the industry rests on the presumption of irony in his work. I'll even go so far as to say that one of the major achievements in the field that Miller is credited with is helping to introduce that level of irony to superhero comics and thereby raising them to the level of serious, "adult" literature.

However, it's increasingly difficult to maintain that reading in light of, well, interviews like these. It's increasingly evident that he's a reactionary misanthrope with really sketchy ideas about women, the role of violence in civilization, etc., and in light of that it's hard to look at his work the same way. That forces, in some way, a serious re-evaluation of Miller's place in the comics pantheon, because, frankly, if you read DKR with the presumption that Batman is supposed to be a straightforwardly sympathetic character... it's kind of icky.

If Frank Miller's work isn't ironic, as has been presumed by many over the past few decades, you could make a serious argument that he has fascist sympathies, or at the very least a deeply fascist sense of aesthetics. That he's generally regarded as one of the greatest living comics creators, and whose work constantly being touted as one of the medium's greatest claims to being considered Real Art, becomes problematic, to say the least. Is he really the face we, as comics readers, want to be showing off proudly to the rest of the world? Because, you know, we have been.

11:11 / 30.01.06

Its political correctness gone mad:

Now did I mean that or didnt I?, my gosh what a big can of worms!!!

Sorry am about to be pretentious, and I know the inner workings of Millers mind YES I DO.

The thing about Miller is that he views all this Macho facistic bullshit on an aesthetic level rather than a "real" one. He is intrested in badass muthafuckas being badass not because he himself is a badass reactionary type (that Yellow Bastard par example looks oddly like Miller dont you think, showing how Miller perhaps views himself in relation to his protagonists an stuff), its because it appeals as a power FANTASY (not reality). Which is something you'd think superhero fans would dig?

I cant think that anyone reading Martha Washington or DK2 will come away thinking that he is some kind of Neo-libral type.

Ahh, the good old 'it was a JOKE!!1!!!' defence/backtrack. Because Miller is, as we know, famed for his satirical deftness.

While Im not Millers biggest fan I think he is allowed to make a joke you commie-nazi. So these ideas an thoughts should be FORBIDDEN to even take the piss out of? In case some ignorant type takes them seriously and starts acting on them...

If anyone doesnt have any doubt whatsoever about their political convictions there is something wrong,IMO Miller just seems to think both left and right can be equally retarded in different ways.

The Natural Way

12:13 / 30.01.06

Gale, it's not a matter of whether or not Miller's allowed to make a joke, it's a matter of whether or not he was.

Also, the Political Correctness jab just makes you come off like a 12 yr old giggling to hir mates @ playtime about "mouthing off" to a teacher. Grow up. Read the bloody message board yr posting on.

12:18 / 30.01.06

Without wishing to defend Frank's comments about the non-aeroplane-buildy 'barbarians' (and *they* can at least fly one, which is more than I can do anyway, and I suspect the same is true of Frank,) they seem more just insane than especially poisonous. As with George, Pete, Mark, Garth etc, Frank, in his interviews, seems to be operating from the baseline assumption that nobody particularly cares what he thinks about anything - He'll have conducted this one, I'm guessing, in a bar, where, confronted by such a sort of git-farmer of an interviewer it must be very tempting to blow the frost off the top of a few cold ones, of a few pints of piss.

Even if Frank M is a slavering gun-nut (and I dare say he possibly might be,) it's not as if he's standing for public office, or anything - Anyone who's looking to the likes of Frank for a clue as to the ideal way of being may need to re-prioritise, I fear. All he does is write comics - he's allowed to be a lunatic, my two cents etc.

Though I do like to think he felt terrible when he sobered up.

14:11 / 30.01.06

Consider that, even if Miller was a fascist bastard woman-hating psychotic neocon culture-assassin gifted from our lizard overlords, it doesn't necessarily make the work invalid or useless. The statement the Republican Party makes before a presidential election, can be considered satire, if you read it blind and don't know it's earnest origins. Many of our best authors, artists, musicians, and all form of entertainer, have been not so great folks in one way or another. Flakes, fascists, racists... I won't hesitate to put a Dali on the wall and sit under it reading from a Lovecraft collection while while Clapton and The Band play on the radio.
Am I the only one who remembers the fuss over Morrison's rape hobby? Blind boys and amish girls?
Or, Miles Davis' 'I'd choke a white man to death'?
Humor doesn't have to carry, necessarily, and neither does so-called truths or emotional responses. Doesn't interfere with talent one bit. In fact, I want my entertainers to have - at least somewhat - different takes, than I do. Keeps the edging impetus present.
They're entertainers and directionally-concerned, perhaps, but not models for living. Put not your faith in true princes and so forth.

16:51 / 30.01.06

Yes, decrescent, but no-one at all has suggested otherwise, re: 'the work'.

That being said, if I actually believed Miller to be a racist pace flyboy/diz, I don't think I would countenance his work - there's a difference between being 1) a cock and 2) utterly repellent.

However, given a choice between reading him as saying either a) 'the entirety of the Middle East is comprised of barbarians, who could not build an aeroplane, even if they tried' (a palpable falsehood; Emirates is a very nice airline) or b) 'the 9/11 bombers and Al-Qaeda, by extension, are barbarians who could not build an aeroplane, even if they tried' (where I can get beside the first conviction, to a degree; the act in itself defines - the second, I dunno, given the aeronautics schooling) I have opted for b), which I consider somewhat more likely even if a) remains (somewhat) plausible. I'd like to rescind the projection on the greater American public option offered earlier, because there's a tonal shift from left to right that doesn't sit comfortably.

19:11 / 30.01.06

Also, the Political Correctness jab just makes you come off like a 12 yr old giggling to hir mates @ playtime about "mouthing off" to a teacher. Grow up. Read the bloody message board yr posting on.

are you that teacher?

its just being reactionary about reactionaries is just as bad as reaction, or something.

19:35 / 30.01.06

Gale, you do understand what Weddunderance was saying, don't you? Just so we're clear, he was suggesting that goading other posters by pissing about with the term political correctness on a board that is famed for disliking it (for good bloody reasons), is both unwise and not a little immature.

I'd suggest that compounding the error with this little jab

are you that teacher?

is both disingenous (see "goading" above) and more than a little confrontational.

21:31 / 30.01.06

Gosh you could almost think this was a john Byne forum and i had said continuety was a bit shite.

Your right I shouldnt have risen to Weddunderance's comment.

21:37 / 30.01.06

Boboss isn't saying just that, he's saying that your original goading was a tad inappropriate.

21:55 / 30.01.06

While Im not Millers biggest fan I think he is allowed to make a joke you commie-nazi.

I don't think he is making a joke. You poohead.

22:24 / 30.01.06

ok then "exagerating for effect" rather than a joke, you reactionary.

22:45 / 30.01.06

you reactionary

11! 23! Pussy Preachers!

22:52 / 30.01.06

You better recognise i take this shit serious!

Regrettable Juvenilia

23:17 / 30.01.06

Gosh you could almost think this was a john Byne forum and i had said continuety was a bit shite.

You're right. There, there are people who care a great deal about continuity. Here, there are people who care a great deal about racism and other forms of bigotry.

Now, if you think those two concerns are about equal in importance, that's up to you.

00:23 / 31.01.06

Michelle --

Yes, there is indeed such a thing as PC gone mad. I once attended a creative writing class wherein the professor identified a white student as a racist for including the term "my blackest day" in a poem. The poet was not rebuked simply on the grounds of being a shit writer on the basis of having written a poem that included the term "my blackest day;" the professor did not seem to find the line objectionable purely for aesthetic reasons, which itself stands as an indicator of her insanity. No. The student was a racist. As you can imagine, the student was rather distressed to learn this. Much sweating, shaking, blushing, and a shocked/stunned, "what...what?" uttered in a small, freaked-out voice ensued. Because, you know, no one really likes to be called, with unshakable conviction, a racist. Not even by someone who's not quite right in the head.

This is not an anecdote that is meant to imply that PC is mad, simply that it can go mad...much as can the noble calling of taxidermy. And, when it does go mad, it's usually about as hard to spot as it would be to pick a guy fucking a stuffed emu out of a crowd.

In this particular instance, PC has not gone mad. I don't agree with a conclusion that to me is a snap judgment based on insufficient evidence, but it comes as the result of a reasonable objection. It's not insane or reactionary to criticize Miller's remarks. If I at least have gone out of my way to object to the charge of racism, it's not because the charge is irrational, it's because it (to me) is a very serious accusation that shouldn't be made unless one is very, very certain that one is right. The fact that it's Frank Miller -- a gifted artist who is, in many respects, possibly kind of nutty -- would actually make me less inclined to defend him, not more, unless I thought the accusation was a little kneejerky, as I do.

At any rate, it's clear you mean well, but I really think that you're coming at this from the wrong direction. Miller said what he said, and there isn't any good reason to think that he didn't mean what he said. Nor is there a good reason to criticize people because they find it disturbing.

07:14 / 07.02.06

Why are you people spending so much time discussing this dribble?
He is being asked the same inane questions hes answered dozens of times & is obviously spouting whatever crap of the same level comes to mind to stay awake. This is fan press you cant expect much more. If you want an insight into his thinking behind his works go and PAY for the aforementioned tcj library book. Yes, PAY for it then you get professionals asking questions where he replys "thats a really good question" & he thinks about his answers, & there is even follow up. Then come back here & try to raise the discussion above namecalling.
Perhaps Im being too harsh, maybe COMICDOM are trying to introduce Greek readers to an overview of his career but I would expect any english language interviewer to at least read a couple of previous interviews with their subject.
Speaking to a foreigner might also in some way account for Miller getting carried away with hyperbole on what half his country thinks.

09:29 / 07.02.06

He is being asked the same inane questions hes answered dozens of times & is obviously spouting whatever crap of the same level comes to mind to stay awake.

That's a nice bit of mind-reading, Mr. Squiggle. What are his dog's name and his computer password?

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:11 / 07.02.06

Hush now. Once you spend a certain amount of time with a man in combat, you develop an understanding. It's not telepathy, but it's near-telepathic.

11:48 / 07.02.06

He is being asked the same inane questions hes answered dozens of times & is obviously spouting whatever crap of the same level comes to mind to stay awake.

That's a nice bit of mind-reading, Mr. Squiggle. What are his dog's name and his computer password?

Heaven forbid you shouldnt always take things at face value, or would that be racist?

13:06 / 07.02.06

Sorry I didnt mean to sound like I was mind-reading, "obviously spouting crap" is probably me engaging in a bit of hyperbole myself. I just mean to say you have to put his answers in their context. Ive read a lot of his interviews, when he is asked intelligent questions he gives intelligent answers, he gives simple answers to simple questions. Im not trying to apologise for him just understand the mindset he was in when making such comments. I think he would at least phrase the barbarian type comments better if he was say having a conversation with Gary Groth or someone he knew would call bullshit on him.

20:19 / 07.02.06

I'm pretty much done with this thread save to say, Word. However, the question then becomes, does Miller bail himself out of charged statements when called upon to do so because he realizes he has said something that could be read as something other than what he meant to say, or because he realizes -- once it's been pointed out -- that what he did in fact mean to say could make him sound to some (significantly, to "some" who might otherwise buy his work) like a racist/nut/fascist? I am not comfortable answering this question, as it does require telepathy.

14:47 / 14.02.06

Holy Terror, Batman! will be Frank Miller's next DC comic.

I believe, at this point, Frank Miller is probably somewhat better at expressing himself with pictures than actual words.

I shall be examining it closely for traces of racism. I'll let you know how it works out.

15:29 / 14.02.06

And if you truly consider these characters our mythological figureheads, you have to wonder about their place and purpose in our culture. "What are they there for?" Miller asked, rhetorically. "Are they really going to be saving damned cats from damn trees?"

Gnk. Saving cats from trees is an act of kindness and compassion. In this world of %constant% terror don't we have time for that anymore?

Batman vs. The Sand People. Coming soon.

15:47 / 14.02.06

See, I think that's still a rather unfair imputation - albeit one he's absolutely left himself wide open to. So far, I'd have him up for jingoism, if anything.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:13 / 15.02.06

Well, at the very least I hope we can stop all this "he's being ironic!!11!" nonsense.

"It's an explosion from my gut reaction of what's happening now, a reminder to people who seem to have forgotten who we're up against."

It's pretty clear that Miller does buy into the idea that America is awash with weak, complacent liberals who want to appease or ignore teh terrorists, isn't it?

10:38 / 15.02.06

Don't forget teh feminazis. The ones that are big-titted hookers are okay, though: the swastikas make nice ear-rings.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:40 / 15.02.06

Ganesh, you just don't understand the passion between a man and a woman or a man and his city.

10:43 / 15.02.06

I understand sharp accessorising, though.

11:25 / 15.02.06

If anyone doesnt have any doubt whatsoever about their political convictions there is something wrong,IMO Miller just seems to think both left and right can be equally retarded in different ways.

And he made an excellent job at satirizing both in the orginal DK Returns, but that's a very fine line to thread, and he may have slipped since.

Sin City is great, but it bothers me how all women in it are either total bitches, and the only wau they can empower themselves is by being a stripper/hooker - except the DA in the oringal Marv story, but she was mutilated by a serial killer and then shot dead by the policemen she trusted. AND she was a lesbian, which could imply Miller thinks a woman can only be more than sex prop if she somehow "masculinize" herself and being a lesbian is the most obvious way to do it (a vision to which I do NOT subscribe in >i>any way you may think of, mind you)

Spyder Todd 2008

14:31 / 15.02.06

You know the really scary part though? DC pays him to write this stuff. I know he's a cash cow, but yikes.

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