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Batman Vs Frank Miller

 
  

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H3ct0r L1m4
02:21 / 16.02.06
come to think of it, Gothan HAS already sort of suffered attacks by some kind of Al-Qaeda group in BATMAN BEGINS.

[although the philosophy and motivations behind each group differ slightly]
 
 
A
14:40 / 16.02.06
"Are they really going to be saving damned cats from damn trees?"

I remember reading one of Miller's Daredevil comics where DD gets past a guard dog by giving it a cute little kitten to distract it. One of my least favourite moments in the history of comics.

I don't know for sure if Miller is a misogynist, racist Islamophobe, but he's clearly a cat-hating bastard and I plan to beat him up.
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
14:51 / 16.02.06
I don't know for sure if Miller is a misogynist, racist Islamophobe, but he's clearly a cat-hating bastard and I plan to beat him up.

I dunno, there's the extra-special "you're the one who shot at the cat" beatdown in Batman: Year One.
 
 
The Falcon
15:31 / 16.02.06
Dang straight. Can I get a "Fuck Yeah!"

Fuck, yeah.
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
15:34 / 16.02.06
I remember reading one of Miller's Daredevil comics where DD gets past a guard dog by giving it a cute little kitten to distract it. One of my least favourite moments in the history of comics.

In Love and War, came out as a graphic novel. Beautiful Siekwiszchzxsc art. Tragic story. It owns.
 
 
This Sunday
16:24 / 16.02.06
Matt Murdock's an asshole. This can be proved with scratch paper and a pocket calculator. Or random issues of 'Daredevil'. He's simply a very attractive, kinda cute and brash asshole. Which makes him temporarily palatable. And then he, y'know, has a moral crisis of the month and leaves you hanging in San Francisco while he's cross-country with his secretary, or feeding kittens to guard dogs.
 
 
eddie thirteen
21:52 / 16.02.06
Uh...

I think I know how Finderwolf must feel about that Identity Crisis abstract now.
 
 
A
00:06 / 18.02.06
I'd forgotten about that Year One bit. Hmmm, okay then. Daredevil is a cat-hating bastard and I guess I'll have to beat Ben Affleck up. I can live with that.
 
 
Michelle Gale
11:34 / 18.02.06
I was very wrong, I didnt think he could be serious about all that stuff, but the nutter is serious about it...very depressing
 
 
The Falcon
18:24 / 20.02.06
Transcript of the WonderCon panel. So, for about 2/3 it was all going very well - some really interesting insights into DK2 and the construction thereof, description of the Reagan era as 'ridiculous', and then Miller gets into contemporary politics at the end, and is just himself ridiculous.

More here, which kind've confuses the issue, but not really.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:29 / 20.02.06
During the darkest part of the urban crime wave, up comes Dirty Harry and becomes an instant folk hero.

Quoted without comment.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
23:17 / 20.02.06
HOLY TERROR's here already. [via LITG]

a parody of a parody is the real thing? in this case...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:36 / 21.02.06
I think it was worth DK2 to get that parody. Biggest love to the panel where Osama is grabbing the pies, and the DK is still surrounded by tiny, pithy (unreadable) captions in the background, as if they flock round him like little white bats.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:13 / 21.02.06
"Frank drew my feet smaller then". That's priceless

I párticularly enjoyed how they spoofed Miller's take on women in the end of the page. Talking about unnecessary adolescent fetishizing...
 
 
The Falcon
11:44 / 21.02.06
Brief video footage; Miller stutters his perfect title (I really didn't think the hardest man in comics would speak like that,) shows some (a-mazing) art, bit more nonsense.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
12:27 / 21.02.06
That's some beautiful art right there.

DK2 was true pop art for the 21st Century, fuck the haters.
 
 
The Falcon
12:32 / 21.02.06
Yeah, I read DK2 before really being exposed to the (often hateful thing that is) the comics internet, and was enormously surprised by how many people aggressively disliked it. In a large percentage of cases, however, it was quite easy enough to dismiss these 'hataz' as utter reprobates.
 
 
This Sunday
12:53 / 21.02.06
Miller's early Bat stuff is still mostly mid-level, to me (including 'Dark Knight Returns') because I don't see the point in treating impact-at-time as anything that makes a work currently valuable (and not simply the existence of the work, which doesn't cost anything), with 'Year One' coming out clearly on top and beginning the Miller-love - to my knowledge - of the naked and bound in the snow.
'...Strikes Again' is entirely wonderful from page one through the end and Flash's bunny-ears. That's a folk hero moment right there, no doubt about it. Empowering and glib and impossible to the point of lovely.
To those who take umbrage or despair at the 'Dirty Harry' comment: Yes, Dirty Harry became a folk hero and worked himself right into a section of the populace. He did. Would you prefer Miller just say 'Robin Hood' or 'King Arthur' or 'Dick Turpin'? The James Bros. and Bowie, Bonnie and Clyde? Folk heroes aren't nice people, they're just vicious little empowering myths thrown sharp and hard in the direction we'd like them to go. They're weaponised memes. Placatory and vengeful fantasies.
And I agree with Miller's statement in one of the above-linked pieces, that you can't fight fundamentalism with fundamentalism. You can't fight idea for idea, but you can devalue an idea and you can attack individual human beings with ideas. Whether you should... I ain't gonna even speculate, because I'm petty and do it any time I get a glimmer of 'I'm smarter than you, cuter than you, and you're wrong, anyway' arguing with someone over politics or which is superior, chocolate or no-chocolate.
Batman versus Osama bin Laden is quite simply a vanity project. It's a vain response and it's intended to raise and encourage our vanity. Our meaning whomever the audience is, I suppose. But I mean, hell, 'The Invisibles' is a propaganda piece, Larry Hama's 'G.I. Joe' comics (and I love his statement, somewhere, that his 'Soldiers are meant to do the unspeakable and then go away,' was rewrit to some rightwing recruitment speech, and he'll 'just have to live with that for the rest of [his] life.'), or Warren Ellis' 'Bad World' are propaganda. They're selling us ideas and playing on our vanity, stroking our egoes to get us to agree with them. Which all educational-styled entertainment does, after it's fashion, from Dickens' serial novels to Darger's 'Vivian Girls' and any eight of a dozen pop songs you could randomly select.
You don't have to believe it to enjoy it, though. You don't have to buy in to be entertained. In fact, you don't have to be entertained and you don't have to buy. Hell, Peter Sotos has been preaching on paper for quite some time now, and I'm not buying his books any more than I am a Dick Cheney imploration to humanity and peace and love. Because I don't need that angle of vanity; got plenty in other directions, yes?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:14 / 21.02.06
I increasingly feel that members either approach the board as a community, or they approach it simply as a venue for self-expression.
 
 
The Falcon
13:42 / 21.02.06
For your reference, barbelites.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:57 / 21.02.06
Decrescent, you really don't understand what Fly meant by the Dirty Harry quote, do you?
 
 
The Falcon
14:01 / 21.02.06
I don't really either, having not seen the films/lived in the 70's.
 
 
advancedplastics
14:41 / 21.02.06
not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere else in the 'lith, but i thought this might be an appropriate place to put this link up:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4396351.stm
 
 
The Natural Way
14:58 / 21.02.06
See "crime wave", Dunc and Decrescent.
 
 
_Boboss
15:01 / 21.02.06
If you absolutely must clint (imo there are no solid reasons to really) stick with the spaghetti ones or high plains drifter.

Anyway, he did ‘quote without comment’ – how’s anyone supposed to know what he means? Unless... oh. can I christen this interwebby rhetorical spasm the ‘mick hucknall defence’? as in ‘if you don’t know me by now’?

Of course I can. Thanks. But which does this helpful example of hucknallia count as, ‘self expression’ or ‘approach as a community’?
 
 
_Boboss
15:14 / 21.02.06
oop, hadn't seen runcible's post there. hands up who's got statistics on when urban crime in the US was at its height? we might need them.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
15:39 / 21.02.06
Right turn Clyde.
 
 
This Sunday
16:27 / 21.02.06
I'll readily admit I may've misunderstood the quote and comment of no comment, but the only reason I made no mention of the 'darkest hour of the urban crime wave' bit(s) was that, that element, struck me as less important or useful than the simple fact that, for a lot of people, Dirty Harry was relevant and felt empowering. Was it necessary or reflecting the actual statistical truths? Perhaps not, but, then, so too most folk heroes. Now, I like Clint Eastwood's acting, and I like a lot of his movies - and don't have to agree to buy that his characters are great heroes showing us the way we all ought to be or somesuch, any more than I watch a film and believe I need to go out and fire a few rounds into Harvey Keitel or run guns and retire in North Africa to establish Rick's. But some people probably do, if not in active life, then in fantasies and daydreams; in attitude. The reality of a situation rarely has anything to do with the fantasies or wish fulfillment of having a superheroic figure triumphing, humiliating their enemy, and standing defiantly in some glossy, backlit pose against the moon. Reality has little to do with wanting to see Batman punch bin Laden, or Osama kicking Charlie Brown's head down the street like a balding soccer ball.
Of course, I probably won't buy the 'Holy Terror...' book, and I don't really agree with some fundamental elements of Miller's espoused politics, but I don't think it's inherently wrongheaded and horrible of him to do the comic. And I don't believe there won't be an audience who wants it, who will derive something from it, and some for whom the sell will be the politics and others who simply want to see Batman punching somebody or Miller drawing terrorists.
In conclusion: Osama bin Laden should be a ninja. Named Sweet Chunks.
Oh, and can somebody point me in the direction of a good directing-quoting thing where Miller's being particularly or notably misogynistic? I know it gets brought up a lot, but I'm wondering how it stacks up next to the homophobic accusations that seem to have no actual, real world, foundation.
 
 
The Falcon
17:42 / 21.02.06
Crime stats, USA - going on violence + murder, 74-75, 79-81 and 91-93 are the worst periods.

Dirty Harry was released in 1971 following a constant 10 year rise in both however.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
00:25 / 22.02.06
side superfluous comment: the Punisher's also an offspring of that late 70s crime-rise-citzens-protecting-themselves-deathwish-clint zeitgeist.

sorry.
 
 
eddie thirteen
01:43 / 25.02.06
I actually will be buying this book (surprise, surprise) if for no better reason than the preview art I've seen has made me drooly. What disturbs me about the book is the inevitable trivialization/simplification of the subject (see also the well-intentioned but wildly ill-advised 9/11-centered "very special issue" of Amazing Spider-Man, or for that matter the subject of rape in Identity Crisis). Politics aside, superhero comics are a blunt rhetorical tool (as is, some would say, Miller himself -- beat you to it, Flyboy), and to say the least this is a subject that requires a bit more delicacy. If Miller's view of the situation is simplistic enough that Batman can enter the fray without irony, as it would appear it is, it's hard to view him as altogether, you know, there.
 
 
This Sunday
04:22 / 25.02.06
My hope would be that this come on nearer the 'Brought to Light'/'Fax from Sarajevo' end and not the Weepy von Doom Spider-Man side of things. Or that it's just so cartooned and unconcerned with being a realistic or proper portrayal - satire as satire, I suppose - that it can be enjoyed or writ off as a political tract trying to sell you something and smash things.
And personally, I still really like seeing Nazis getting the shit kicked out of them in comics (and other mediums), whether they're real, like Hitler, or of the build-a-Nazi compendium of bald, monocle-wearing, possibly one-handed (with big, evil, robo-hand replacement) designed to be defeated by someone who's dogged them throughout time, from the thirties to yesterday, be they Nick Fury, Pantha, or Indiana Jones. So if I can get my smash-Nazi thrills, I can't wholeheartedly let someone else be denied their smash-al Qaeda fix.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
22:22 / 25.02.06
Hmmmm.
 
 
Spaniel
23:11 / 25.02.06
So if I can get my smash-Nazi thrills, I can't wholeheartedly let someone else be denied their smash-al Qaeda fix.

Well I think I can. The thing is, Nazis existed, Al Qaeda on the other hand may well be little more than a western fiction* designed to provide support for neo-con policies and the American legal system.

Also, we don't have to worry (as much) about the political complexities and consequences of slagging off the Nazis because there's sixty years of history between then and now.


*That's not to say that there aren't terrorist groups, just that things are a little more complicated
 
 
matthew.
23:48 / 25.02.06
Also, we don't have to worry (as much) about the political complexities and consequences of slagging off the Nazis because there's sixty years of history between then and now.

They were smashing Nazis before the war in the comics, if I remember my history correctly. Also, they were smashing TEH EVIL "Japs" too. See here.



Also, on the Batman serial of the forties, the narrator actually says “shifty-eyed Japs”. See here.
 
  

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