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Triplets
23:49 / 17.01.07
Hello darlings, my ex-girlfriend from this thread contacted me on Friday. She's pregnant.

I think I ordered several stiff drinks afterward.

We met on Monday at her new place (see below). We got on fine and talked it out. I know how I came off in the first thread but when we get on we get on and I'd like to think (and she's said herself) that the baby has put a shock to her system and made her rethink a lot of the attitudes she has towards life.

She's given me two options:

1. We both get back together and raise the child as a stable family unit (I still love her, and she's said she still loves me)
2. She raises the baby herself with, hopefully, money support from me.

When we first started going out we had a conversation (brought up by me) about theoretical kids. My stance was that kids are a someday maybe, but not right now. She told me that due to her var. issues (OCD, manic-depression, self-harm) that while she wanted kids she didn't think she'd be suitable to raise them and that, if she got pregnant, she'd put it up for adoption.

Fast forward three months from there. We have unprotected sex sometime towards the middle of October. On Day 1 I barely think about it, admittedly. On Day 2 I ask her to go get the morning-after pill from the walk-in centre in town; "I'll get it tomorrow". Day 3, we're on the phone around 10pm and I ask her to tell me she got the pill; "I was too tired and besides I've taken the pill once every month since we started seeing each other" which sounded like an excuse. And, yes, we're both stupid.

I just feel that suddenly she's pregnant and suddenly "we"'re keeping this baby without any input from me.

Our financial situation is laughable. She moved out of her parent's place (she's 18) into shared housing at the start of the new year. She hasn't got a job and the only job experience she's had is two years of bar work and bar backing. She is, however, starting an IT course at a local college so she can get secretarial work (as opposed to just bar work) My situation isn't any better. I'm supposed to be starting a decent call centre job in a few weeks (I've been unemployed for about a month) but that in itself is giving me doubts. I don't like working in call centres (who does?) and I'm scared that because that's the only job experience I've got I'll be working in one for the next 18 years of this kid's life.

If we went with the family option my parents place would be out even as a temporary so I'd have to move into her shared council house. It's not a completely bad area and at least we'd have a base while we found somewhere more suitable to live.

I'm not sure I'm ready to start a family. I'm 22/23. I keep having nebulous visions of stuff I want to do. I was going to go away to France for the summer to work on an adventure holiday course, I was going to apply for a college access course so I could go away to university in 2008.

I love this girl. But I don't think I love this baby, basically.

I'm scared, guys.

It feels like the important decisions all got decided without me behind closed doors.

And if I'm not there for this baby like proper dad that makes me an awful person, surely?

I don't know.

It makes me laugh that people pay tens of thousands to be in this situation.

Advice, commiserations, pointing-and-laughing, throw it at me. I'd like to hear from everybody. Barbeparents and Barbe-non-parents.
 
 
Triplets
23:51 / 17.01.07
So I've given myself half a week to decide, pretty much. S thinks I don't want to raise the kid and she (maturely) wants me to stop umming and ahhing now so we can get on with it.

She told me tonight "If you wanted to raise this kid with me you'd just say "yes"". Is it that simple?
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
23:54 / 17.01.07
Oh my God, dude, that sucks. That's one of my recurring nightmares.

To be brutally honest, It doesn't sound like either one of you is ready for this (and you don't sound even remotely psyched to be a daddy), and she certainly doesn't seem particularly trustworthy. Adoption sounds reasonable, to me.
 
 
Triplets
00:02 / 18.01.07
On the pill thing she basically said that she'd taken the morning-after pill every month since we started going out and that she was afraid it too much would imbalance her system (not an invalid fear considering she was on anti-depressants as well).

To be fair to her since the baby she's stopped self-harming, her mood seems to have calmed right down (tho she has been bitchy about my final decision) and she's getting things done (moving away from parents, getting college sorted, sorting out benefits).

Which leads onto yet another point- she was with someone after we broke up. He's turned around since and said he's infertile. She won't tell me who this other guy is (if he exists). However from the way she's showing (she's showing already) she might be 20 weeks along already which puts conception when we were together. I've asked for a paternity test which she's taken afront with 1. "because it shows that you don't trust me". The other reason for not taking a test is 2. the baby and her don't like needles. Hokay. She does have needlephobia.

She has said, though, that when she goes for her first ultrasound scan she knows it will be at the 20/22 week mark which puts it squarely being when we were together.

I'm just trying to lay out everything on the rug for myself as much as for anyone else.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
00:05 / 18.01.07
Crosspost, there...

It's not that simple, I'm sure, but you'll probably want to approach this with extreme caution.

Something similar (but worse-she told him she was infertile, and then... Oops!) happened to one of my best friends. He chose to stay with the girl and help raise the kid, and now he's living a nightmare. He had to get a job at Wal-Mart, she lives with him and their daughter, but they're broken up and she goes out all the time and gets totally wasted and fucked up on pills. She does next to nothing time- or money-wise to help out and it's really become the saddest, most infuriating thing.

Not saying this is going to happen to you at all, but it's a cautionary tale. He does love his kid like crazy, though, which is pretty neat, I guess. Still, he's plugged in to a kind of wretched existence and it's really sad.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
00:07 / 18.01.07
'Nother crosspost.

I've asked for a paternity test which she's taken afront with 1. "because it shows that you don't trust me". The other reason for not taking a test is 2. the baby and her don't like needles. Hokay. She does have needlephobia.

FUCK THAT. Get it done.
 
 
Triplets
00:14 / 18.01.07
Christ. I feel for your mate, dude.

Yeah, she's manipulative.

On Monday, after I got back from our big baby talk my dad basically said point blank that he thought I was "fucking idiot" and that "she knows you're a soft touch, you're a nice guy and that's what's going to fuck you up, Trips". He's a wonder for the ego but he does have a point, I'm a nice guy and I do feel my best when I'm investing a lot of myself into people. And I hate to think I'm being taken advantage of.

When I brought up the paternity test she also said I was being "cheeky" and that I was just looking for another way out. Which I told her was bollocks because we can only do it after the pregnancy. This was when she brought out the needlephobia. Who's clutching at straws?

And through it all, I don't think I love this baby (yet, at least) but I fucking feel for it when I think of it growing up without a dad and the most likely quality of living it's going to get.
 
 
Tsuga
00:30 / 18.01.07
motherfucker.
Good luck, man. All I can say is a baby is not really a good reason to be in a relationship. I mean, it may make you try harder, but you may be trying harder in a doomed relationship. It may work out, who knows. This is all distinct from whether or not you decide to be involved in the baby's life. Which, if you are responsible, hopefully you will do your best.
You're obviously a smart guy. Just think about what relationship you really should have with the mother-to-be. You can be a good dad and not be married, you just have to work, and surely there will be a trade-off. That's a fucking tough spot, man. Again, good luck. I feel for you.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
00:34 / 18.01.07
Christ. I feel for your mate, dude.

Thanks, man, it's pretty terrible, indeed. I'd hate to see something similar happen to you.

On Monday, after I got back from our big baby talk my dad basically said point blank that he thought I was "fucking idiot" and that "she knows you're a soft touch, you're a nice guy and that's what's going to fuck you up, Trips". He's a wonder for the ego but he does have a point, I'm a nice guy and I do feel my best when I'm investing a lot of myself into people. And I hate to think I'm being taken advantage of.

He does have a point. You absolutely have to make sure you're not being taken advantage of, and the first step is to make sure, personally, that the paternity test happens.

When I brought up the paternity test she also said I was being "cheeky" and that I was just looking for another way out. Which I told her was bollocks because we can only do it after the pregnancy. This was when she brought out the needlephobia. Who's clutching at straws?

Yes. My Spidey-sense is tingling.

And through it all, I don't think I love this baby (yet, at least) but I fucking feel for it when I think of it growing up without a dad and the most likely quality of living it's going to get.

You very well may love it to death. I don't feel like I really "get" the kid thing, but we seem to just be biologically wired that way. Like my buddy, who puts up with so much horrible shit because he loves his daughter. If you had asked him before all this if he would ever work at Wal-Mart he would have laughed you out of town, but there he is. And there he will be for the foreseeable.

She's dead set on having it, then?
 
 
Triplets
00:54 / 18.01.07
Thanks, dudes.

A big no on adoption. One of the things that worries me is that she's possibly attached all her hopes of getting better on having a baby to look after, "something to live for" in her own words, which is a whole other can of worms.

I've just spoken to my brother Chris and I think I know how I'm going to deal with this. Any extra discussion here would be fab, though.

But, yes, I'm not going to back off on the paternity test.
 
 
Saturn's nod
08:05 / 18.01.07
One of the things that worries me is that she's possibly attached all her hopes of getting better on having a baby to look after, "something to live for" in her own words, which is a whole other can of worms.

That really works out for some folks. I have a good friend who had her kid at 17, and regards the kid as an angel sent to save her. They're both great people who I'm proud to know.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:30 / 18.01.07
But what's the paternity test for? If you feel like sticking around and raising the child with her, it doesn't really matter whether or not you're the biological father, and the test result is at best a matter of intellectual interest. If you don't want to, then it does become an issue, because the biological father is generally obliged to provide at least some level of at minimum financial support for the child. It might be worth thinking about your reasons for wanting this test, and her reasons for not wanting it.

Beyond that - commiserations. What a horrible situation to find oneself in. As far as I can see, there are five _basic_ options:

1) Termination - nobody seems to have raised this yet, but it might be worth considering.
2) Pregnancy taken to term, adopted, neither you nor she have a legal or custodial responsibility for it.
3) Pregnancy taken to term, you and she form something akin to a traditional family unit, cohabit, raise child.
4) Pregnancy taken to term, she raises child, you do not form an approximation of a traditional family unit, but provide other forms of support - emotional, financial, or other - as negotiated.
5) As above, but you are not involved in the raising orr the support of the child. I'm actually not sure this _can_ be done - you may find yourself tapped up for support by governmental agency whether or not the mother wants you to, to lessen the burden on social services.


If abortion is definitely out, that leaves (1), (3), (4), (5) and other, really. have you considered other options?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:37 / 18.01.07
Bloody hell, Trips, what a ghastly situation to find yourself in.

On the pill thing she basically said that she'd taken the morning-after pill every month since we started going out and that she was afraid it too much would imbalance her system (not an invalid fear considering she was on anti-depressants as well).

And the hormonal maelstrom unleashed when one gets knocked up will of course have no comparable effect.

I've asked for a paternity test which she's taken afront with 1. "because it shows that you don't trust me".

OH HELL NO.

One of the things that worries me is that she's possibly attached all her hopes of getting better on having a baby to look after, "something to live for" in her own words, which is a whole other can of worms.

Like The apt titanium/Saturn's Nod says, this can happen. People do find themselves motivated to turn their lives around for teh sake of a child, when they couldn't do it for their own sake. On the other hand it's also not uncommon for someone in this young woman's position to pin her hopes for change on a dreamy, unrealistic image of motherhood, only to find that the reality is a lot harder to face.

You do bear some responsibility for this situation (you were aware of her lax attitude to contraception), but you need to try and be objective about those responsibilities. Specifically, I'm very concerned about the way you're talking as if your future education plans will necessarly have to be shelved; is it really in the child's best interests to have a dad who's stuck working in a call centre?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:41 / 18.01.07
Haus: if there's another person involved who bears some responsibility for the pregnancy, then surely that's important? This theoretical other guy might be willing to pitch in with some extra support, which can only be good news for the infant and its carers.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:55 / 18.01.07
I don't follow "some responsibility for the pregnancy", MC. Of the three people mentioned here so far, two are responsible for the pregancy and one is not, in the sense of being the people involved in the conception... Do you mean that there is an option (6), which is like (3) or (4), but with the biological father of the child providing support to the biological mother and Triplets? That is certainly a possibility, and one worth exploring, but it does require the pregnancy to conclude first.

So, yes. Oh, and I hate to break the love and support vibe, but:

You do bear some responsibility for this situation (you were aware of her lax attitude to contraception)

Assuming we're not talking about accidental breakage or leakage, didn't Trips say he had unprotected sex with her? That's not just her lax attitude, there...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:07 / 18.01.07
Sorry, that was unclear.

If you know that the person you're having sex with isn't terribly careful about using other forms of contraception, then you bear an added responsibility to make sure you use something if you don't want to deal with a possible pregnancy.

If you're having otherwise unprotected sex with a regular partner with whom you have discussed contraceptive and prophylactic choices very thoroughly, who you trust to be responsible about using contraception, I think the responsibility is diminished, yes. Obviously you still bear some responsibility since that baby didn't get in there by itself, but I think it's more of a grey area.

I'm completely open to debate on the above, since it's largely a rule of thumb based on how I personally would want/expect a guy to respond if I got pg.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:08 / 18.01.07
I think termination will be difficult unless there is a medical problem - if she's about twelve weeks in, that is - because although later-term abortions are possible, they are much harder to get after 12 weeks, especially on the NHS (which seems the only viable option given your respective financial situations), and they are much more invasive and involve general anaesthetic. Plus, if she doesn't want an abortion, she shouldn't be pressured into having one.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:15 / 18.01.07
Not that Triplets has suggested doing so, which is to his credit.

It's a horrible situation but pointless to try to pin blame on anyone. I think the paternity test thing was insensitive - why bring it up unless you really have serious doubts that it is your child (and from what you say about timings, Triplets, you don't seem to have those)? If you do think there is something fishy about the dates etc., ask to go for the scan with her; you can determine how old the foetus is then. If not, I think you should think about what relationship you want with your ex; this should help determine how you are going to work out the support question. If you get it settled now and you both have time to get used to the situation, it might make it easier once the child is born.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
09:16 / 18.01.07
But why on earth does she want to keep this baby? I'm not sure I understand. Has she actually explained her reasons to you, Triplets, beyond "I just want to"? Seems a tad selfish, nay foolhardy, given your respective situations.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:27 / 18.01.07
Oh, absolutely on the not being pressured - I just noticed that the option of termination had not been raised, but looking at the timings, although the date of conception seems to be uncertain, it is probably a moot point at this stage.

Also absolutely right that the important thing is to think about how you both want to deal with this situation, which is much more important than the paternity of the child. If you want to be a custodial parent, then the paternity is irrelevant. If you don't, then it becomes relevant, but in terms mainly of the level of support expected of you.

However, this may all be otiose advice, if you've already come to a decision... so perhaps one should just offer best wishes.
 
 
Spaniel
13:11 / 18.01.07
Oh God, Trips, my heart goes out to you.

This is a really difficult one for me to get my thoughts together on, mainly because I'm a relatively new dad and thoroughly caught up in all the emotional baggage that caring for a baby brings with it. Here goes, however.

Okay, I think the question of paternity does matter. Both on the pages of the board and in pms to me you've expressed anxieties about your ex's trustworthiness. I suggest that before making any long-term decisions about that relationship (note, I'm not talking about your future relationship with the child), you need to do some serious thinking, and knowing whether she's deliberately misled you will feed into that in a big way.

As for everything else, I'm afraid I don't have much more to add to what's been said. Just bear in mind that taking on an infant is no small thing. It will change your life in inumerable ways, some good, some bad - all concrete and with profound consequences for you, and those that love you.

Big hug.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:30 / 18.01.07
My sympathy goes out to you and the mother Triplets. I wish I had some advice. Hope it all gets sorted out.
 
 
Ticker
15:48 / 18.01.07
Dear Trips,

My mother and my father were never (in my entire sentient life) in a romantic relationship having divorced when I was 3 months old. Compared to my elder siblings I am very lucky to have missed the fighting, general nastiness, and upheaval.

A father can have a role in his child's life, a supportive compassionate useful role, without being a direct partner to the mother. In fact if the love and strength of a relationship is in doubt it is often more supportive for the parents to find what they need to be happy fulfilled humans rather than just sucking it up for the sake of the children. Really.

It's a painful fact of hetero male life that in our society you might not always get a lot of input or any at all in the decision of what to do with an unplanned pregnancy. However lot's of unplanned things happen to people, big epic life changing events, without any consultation what so ever. A child is not a death sentence for living your life and making choices that direct you down the path of happiness.

What to do now:

1. Be a friend and supporter of the mother. You are going to be interacting for at least 18 years from now on and pregnancy is fucking scary as hell as well as wonderful. You have been friends all along, focus on that as much as you can. Give this person you have loved a year of your life in terms of honesty and generosity. That's one year of helping her through the pregancy and once the child is born.

2. You might not want to be a father and that is ok, but it looks like you're going to be one. So who do you want to be? You have control over your own choices you can choose to be the kind of human and parent that you wish to be.

3. Get your ass some information and support as to what your options are. Go see a lawyer, sit down with people who are parents, ask questions.

4. No matter what other people say, do what you think is the right thing to do.
Really. Having a good person as a parent is the best gift any child can have no matter what level of active involvement that parent may have in that child's life.

5. Make some space where you can freak out off stage. Maybe you need to be 100% there at times but make sure you build some release valves into your existence.

6. Be Kind to Yourself. As dopey as it sounds, shit will work out. Really.

Wishing You the Best,

XK
 
 
Triplets
17:55 / 18.01.07
Thanks, xk. Paragraph 1 is what I've needed to hear (and have heard off about half a dozen people so far).

And thanks to everyone else.

However, to clear some things up.

I did say I would prefer abortion when we had the first pregnancy scare in December (I was also pro-abortion from our first week of getting together). However, when she said no I didn't press the issue. I have also brought up adoption which has been similarly shot down.

It looks like we're going to be taking Haus' Door No. 4:

4) Pregnancy taken to term, she raises child, you do not form an approximation of a traditional family unit, but provide other forms of support - emotional, financial, or other - as negotiated.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:05 / 18.01.07
Triplets- that's some hefty shit, and you have my full sympathy.

A friend of mine recently had a kid, and when she became pregnant she told the father (who was her full-time boyfriend) that she knew he wasn't interested in having a kid, so didn't expect anything from him in the way of help. He still dumped her a day after the kid was born, only to turn up a month later as if nothing had happened, and expect her to also react the same way.

Judging by your posts, you're neither that stupid nor that irresponsible. I have no real advice for your situation, unfortunately, other than- decide between you how you're going to deal with this and then STICK TO IT. Or at least stick to your end of it.

Sorry if this sounds more prescriptive than helpful... it's something that's been on my mind recently. But the best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

I can't imagine what being in that situation must be like, but looking at it from a distance, Haus's door #4 certainly seems the most desirable option.

Again, good luck, and let us know how it goes. Even those of us who are drunk all the time do actually care.
 
 
Ender
18:26 / 18.01.07
hey man, you are going to be a father, congratulations.

One thing though, dont date any more 18-year old "OCD Manic depressive self-harmers". I have had to learn (more than once) why that is a bad idea.
 
 
Spaniel
18:48 / 18.01.07
Trips, a good friend of mine has lived apart from the mother of his child since just after conception*. In fact he can't stand her, but the time, attention and love they've put into parenting has produced a well adjusted, highly intelligent, secure child.



*That was seven years ago - he was only 22
 
 
Triplets
19:14 / 18.01.07
I'm now considering, after I broach my decision with the ex, if she'll name our child "Haus' Door No. 4".
 
 
*
19:19 / 18.01.07
Here's hoping co-parenting can be a mostly positive experience for you, Triplets. I have confidence that if this is so, it will be a positive one for your kid as well.

I'd want to think about the possible effect of post-partum depression on top of the mother's emotional difficulties, and be looking ahead to getting help and care for her if it becomes needed.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
19:25 / 18.01.07
I don't really have anything else to add, except to say that the decision you're making seems like the best one to me.

Good luck!
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:57 / 18.01.07
I don't know if this helps, but ever since the dawn of times (human times, that is) people have been having kids in less than ideal conditions, and more often than not evereything turns out relatively ok. There's always a certain amount of trauma in every person's life anyway - even birth hurts, for mother and child - so don't panic on weather you'll make it work or not: chances are, you will make it work.

You are not more stupid than every other young, surprised father to be in History. Many of them turn out to be great daddys. And, as F.F. Copolla once said in a "Inside the Actor's Studio" interview, having a child may actually help you get your act together and become a very successful person, instead of getting in the way. Just sharp yourself up.

That being said, yeah, I thing Haus door # 4 is the most rational way to go too. The final decision, needless to say, belongs to you and S.

And that being said: Congratulations!!!! As troublesome and with a bad timing as it may come, a baby is always a blessing, I reckon. So, bless you three...
 
 
grant
19:59 / 18.01.07
How are the grandparents dealing with this?

I ask because it seems (to me) like they're going to be instrumental in the support mentioned in most of the options above.

If you'd like to discuss this more offboard, email me (grantimatter at yahoo) - My Forthright Spouse is a social worker who does family counseling. She's actually out right now (leaving me taking off work early to care for our adopted kids) visiting some lucky teenage mother or mom-to-be, I think. We're in the U.S., so our social services are a little different -- I suspect ours are more rudimentary.

On this: she's possibly attached all her hopes of getting better on having a baby to look after, "something to live for"

What does "getting better" mean? Babies are harbingers of great personal change, yes, but they're also incredibly stressful creatures. Guantanamo-style sleep deprivation is only the beginning of the changes. They can bring people together in an amazing way, though, because when you bear responsibility for them, they become MIRACULOUS.

But there's something that you've mentioned more than once here -- you don't feel like you love this child. Listen: THERE IS NO CHILD. There's an idea of a child, and a rapidly multiplying cluster of cells in lady's tummy, but there's really nothing that you could possibly develop a personal relationship with except in the way that some people develop a personal relationship with Christ after reading about him in a book (and usually that takes a few years). The love part happens after you're confronted with a small human being who has likes and dislikes and a certain way of holding its tiny little human head or moving its human hands that reminds you of something you used to do, or your parents, or Doug Henning, or Lemmy from Motorhead. A real, physical, imminent being.

So stop sweating that part.
 
 
grant
20:03 / 18.01.07
Oh, and please don't chop off your willy.

Thanks.
 
 
*
22:18 / 18.01.07
Unless after lengthy and cautious consideration you decide you really want to, and then get a professional to help you with that part.
 
 
Triplets
23:45 / 18.01.07
Update. Just come in from the pub. Ran into her best mate who hadn't been appraised yet that I might be the dad and that I'm gunning for a paternity test.

She just told me that, speaking to S, S hasn't just been with one lad since we broke up she's been with at least 4/5 since the end of November and the beginning of the new year.

Paternity test or bust I feel.
 
  

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