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Underground > Comic Books >

Scary Sex Stuff

  
  

Page: 1(2)34567... 8

 
 
Sylvia
16:42 / 16.11.06
Just wanted to point out that Graeme linked to this on the Newsarama blog (This is because Graeme has good taste).
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:56 / 16.11.06
Does anyone know what the scene was like pre-Wertham? Of course old Fred grabbed the wrong end of a large number of sticks, but were they particularly explicit or nasty when it came to sex, or would we consider them laughably tame?
 
 
This Sunday
19:42 / 16.11.06
Tijuana Bibles aside, they were tame compared to some mediums, and yet, well there was some stuff that wouldn't fly in a mainstream book. Remember, back in the day, it was possible to have topless women illustrated in comics strips run in major newspapers. On the violence levels, it's a matter more (in my opinion) of scale versus detail. Forty people being gunned down is different when it's Alex Toth, when it's Frank Quitely, or when it's being done in the style of... oh, Wally Wood on a very lazy day. And 'Wonder Woman' did have the tie me up and spank. Actually, Superman had the spanking fetish, too, as did many, many books of the thirties and forties.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
20:00 / 16.11.06
Wow, I should not have thought, "I wonder what a Tijuana Bible is" at work and then Googled it.

Good thing I am the network admin.

How much of the retouching in various parts of Authority were based on sexual issues rather then violence do you think? I think the bit with Shen as the brainwashed housewife was redone before it went to press wasn't it?
 
 
This Sunday
20:11 / 16.11.06
Swift's hubby insults and degrades her verbally before putting a cigar out in her open mouth, I believe. Now it's a cooked bird and a giant muffin that he just doesn't want to eat... which, to my mind, makes her falling immediately into tears and collapsing all the more horrifying.

Of the team, the two women and Apollo really got the worst, during that storyline. Which, was a storyline I liked, it's just... there's got to be something better to be done with Shen and Angie who are just... I kinda liked that Millar threw them around into each others beds while he was doing Authority stories, but other than that, and the Shen-with-heads panel or Angie's comics, he never really reached the very very coolness of say, ANGIE ON THE MOON! Which just oozed geekiness, and hence personality (and offhand sexuality), rather than just being a walking set of sex organs to be degraded or sexually attacked by every villain.

So - beat - anybody want to touch on 'Watchworld' at all? Or, the two Chucks (Austen and Dixon) at all? Just curious.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:10 / 16.11.06
SiliconDream: Come to think of it, in all 3 cases of female-on-male rape mentioned so far, the lady was treated as or more sympathetically than she had been in the past. Tarantula became Nightwing's girlfriend/fiancee/I'm not really sure what else for a while, Stealth remained a major heroine of the book, and the Mist became a tragic, doomed villainess

I think with Mist it was more an issue of her actually developing some characterization afterward - she wasn't that well developed until after she raped Jack, mostly owing to her lack of full-on screentime. And she was used as a counterpoint to Jack - her legacy made her crazy and her father would only give her credibility when he wanted something from her. She was treated as being a vicious villain - she killed the entire JLE rather nastily** - and for the most part she wasn't sympathetic so much as fleshed out to be interesting. She would never live up to her father's name and she kept being told that, no matter how evil she made herself...

** - being an instance when murder, rather than rape, was used to establish the villain's badassery.
 
 
SiliconDream
01:17 / 17.11.06
I think with Mist it was more an issue of her actually developing some characterization afterward - she wasn't that well developed until after she raped Jack, mostly owing to her lack of full-on screentime. And she was used as a counterpoint to Jack - her legacy made her crazy and her father would only give her credibility when he wanted something from her. She was treated as being a vicious villain - she killed the entire JLE rather nastily** - and for the most part she wasn't sympathetic so much as fleshed out to be interesting. She would never live up to her father's name and she kept being told that, no matter how evil she made herself...

Well, no question that she was evil. But almost all of her scenes highlight her capacity for love and compassion; she's playing with or protecting her baby, or telling sweet nothings to Jack, or sparing someone (or at least apologizing for killing them) after a tearful plea. Heck, her last act before death is to make sure her son is taken care of. And as you say, her whole motivation for evil is love--love for her father and the brother she let down. She's not inherently malicious; she just devoted herself to the wrong people.

** - being an instance when murder, rather than rape, was used to establish the villain's badassery.

I'm wondering if that's the norm for the (few) female rapists of males in comics. Rape for them is almost a redeeming act--it means they're desperate for love and just try to get it in a twisted way. Male rapists, on the other hand, are usually worse-than-murderer types who do the dastardly deed to victims they either hate or care nothing for, then stride off cackling evilly.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:42 / 17.11.06
Should we bring up Identity Crisis and the Atom's wife here?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:06 / 17.11.06
We're about a page and a half in. I can't see any reason why not to, really. (Though it's ages since I read it and I've managed to repress most of it, though it will no doubt reappear later in life as a facial tic or something).
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:16 / 17.11.06
It's just both Mist and Crazy Jean killed many people out of a desire to win back the love of others, Daddy Mist and soon-to-be-ex-husband respectively. I can't recall any other female murderers off the top of my head to see whether they fall into the same pattern.
 
 
tickspeak
14:07 / 21.11.06
http://occasionalsuperheroine.blogspot.com/

Rich Johnston linked to that in his column this week. Start from the bottom.

I am very close to just giving up on Mainstream Superheroes, as I cannot in good conscience support an industry that runs on the fear and loathing of women.

Note to Marvel, DC, et al: YOUR BOOKS ARE FOR OUTSIDERS. ALL OF US, NOT JUST THE SAD FAT BOYS WITH GREASY SPECS AND CONSTANT ERECTIONS IN THEIR SWEATPANTS. The queer, the abused, the lonely of all genders, races, fashions. Stop pretending that the vocal subset of your readership is the entirety of your readership. THEY'RE THE ONLY ONES TO WHOM YOU'VE GIVEN A VOICE.
 
 
This Sunday
14:45 / 21.11.06
Just thought I'd note that, having just begun to reread Morrison's 'New X-Men' there's so much of the happier side of sex(uality) in there it makes a lot of stuff that's come since look really sad. Even the psychic affair and its results were, while straining and sorrowful and such, so much more pleasant in the exploratory nature of it all. Quentin' sexy see-through mind, Beakie and Angel, Wolverine and Domino, the Smasher rear-entry splashpage, Maddrox's singular orgy possibility, or heck, even the silly 'sex' in the background of every page of that one issue... Henry muthafuckin McCoy, PhD is just gorgeous from panel one through his being dumped by Tilby over 'bestiality' insinuations (coupled with the aforementioned Beak and Angel and their radical departures from human bodily norms) to learning the drums, and generally being his mood-swingy Hindu sexgod class-act with a song and rose and a smile for everybody. Oh, and he's as gay as it gets, too. Even if he's straight.

Just had a thought: Wasn't there an absurdly big fit thrown across the interweb and comics shops across the globe, over Beast's little potshot at his ex? 'No! No, Beast can't be gay... he had a girlfriend... two of them! Vera! Come back and turn our lovable blue furball back to the straightside!" or something like that?

Maybe it was Morrison being deliberately too weird. Or trying hard to be. He does that, y'know. (And before anyone asks, no, I'm not being serious - there is no too weird, and telling your ex just after a break-up, that you might not "be interested in any human relationships right now," is not even that unusual.)
 
 
Jared Louderback
15:13 / 21.11.06
You know, Daytripper, I'd completely forgotten about new x-men because the last parts of it made me so angry, but that is probably the prime example of a comic being "adult" or mature, or however you want to put it and actually being interesting, fun, and engaging. That is how to do it right, for sure.
 
 
This Sunday
14:56 / 30.01.07
I like to harp on certain topics, don't I? Oh, well...

Does anybody remember the New Fantastic Four, where Hulk, Ghost Rider, Wolverine and Spider-Man all teamed together 'cause they thought the FF were dead? When I read it ages ago, I thought the Skrull who was impersonating Sue, and using super-hypnosis slept with Reed Richards. Now, rereading, I see that she's attracted to him, and hypnotizes him into totally being into her, but there's nothing physical. Was there some subtexty thing that put this in my head or do I just subconsciously want to sleep with a brainwashed rubber-bodied scientist?

And if they had had brainwashy sex, how would it have shifted the sexual politics of supertights comics to come later? If at all.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:42 / 30.01.07
I remember this comic but I don't remember the Skrull/Sue subplot you speak of. Drawn by Art Adams and written by Walt Simonson, as I recall.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
00:02 / 31.01.07
To shift topic somewhat -

The last issue of "Wanted", and in paticular, the last panel. Left an unpleasant taste in my mouth for... well, it's still there. Or have we covered anal rape fantasies already?
 
 
This Sunday
21:16 / 23.04.07
Alex Ross. Heroic packages. Fanboys scare the fanmen, fanwomen, and transfen.

Someone other than me is laughing at this, right?

Also, if you hit up the xbooks newsgroup (via google, or whatever service you'd like) and do a search in-the-group for 'Morrison' you'll see how his sex-obsession ruined the X-Men forever!
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
21:18 / 23.04.07
Link seems to be broken DD
 
 
This Sunday
21:26 / 23.04.07
Having established that I can't get a link to work for the life of me (that one above, keeps working for me, but that's likely because this machine remembers... blahblah)

http://comics212.net/2007/04/19/afraid-of-cock

Someone else can make it clicky, if they'd like. Otherwise, just cut and paste.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
04:49 / 24.04.07
It perplexes me that people who reading heaps of stacks of piles of comics about well-muscled supermen in painted-on tights can turn around to flail indignantly when anything indicates that (SHOCK!) those supermen in painted-on tights have anything underneath. It's all just coded symbols of virility, thrusting lightning bolts and heat vision; why do they have to get the queer fear? I feel like scanning issues of Flex Mentallo and posting them because the reactions are always so painfully textbook.

Sigh. ONe day, Wonder Woman's going to swoop in with her lasso of truth and this will all go away...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
05:34 / 24.04.07
That's funny stuff, DD. I like the idea of these two buddies peering closely at Alex Ross's painting: "yeah, Jake, that's definitely a BONER." "Fuckin sick, man! How did Ross choose to paint a boner?" "Wait up, I'm gonna call Ted. Hey, Ted. You lookin at the new Ross art? Yeah, you notice anything? Yup... yup! We're lookin at it now! Fuckin queer with a boner!"
 
 
Mug Chum
07:06 / 24.04.07
"Crotchgate" was as funnily pathetic as it was weirdly homophobic on the "erection" (blogger: "can you imagine what was going on Ross' mind when he drew this? Creepy. As he drew that meaty, shiny, veiny, succulent... a-ham... creepy fucker!").

Fangirls have been rightly complaining the comic world is basically a creepy peep-hole show, now an artist does someone who's not a Ken doll and they have a little freak-out party. Must be the same people who shrugged off fangirls' complaints as nitpicking; now they nitpick to unimaginable levels.

I'd pretty much bet that DC will make a understated policy for artists to try to avoid such things from now on. After all, the complainers are the boys, the predominant sector of such rich, vast and prospering market.

Christ, I've seen on superheroes comics blogs bulges waaaay huger than that, and way more suggestive.
("That is never not impressive": http://farm1.static.flickr.com/174/415261802_c3d2694530_o.jpg)

Papers: exactly, WTF? Haven't these people seen Harvey Birdman ("exactly, lightning bolts... in my pants!")? Haven't they seen Seaguy's Chubby?
(Holy crap, might have to give a second thought on Morrison's symbolism bitchiness about Seaguy's failure! Christ Oh Fuckin' Mighty!)
 
 
Mug Chum
07:27 / 24.04.07
The last issue of "Wanted"
Personally, I find Millar to be a creepy seedy childish duchebag. Can't someone take him to a prison-themed "fantasy camp" for the summer once and for all? (somewhere all "inmates" have to wear Dorothy's red shoes just to make a nod to Arrested Development?)... Or take away his "Oz" and "Prison Break" dvds from him...? And say the new cool "Alpha Male Top Dog/ Territorial-Dominator/ Leather-Daddy" thing to do is to fuck his own ass...

-- "Mark, it's not gay if you're the guy, ma' man!"
-- "Yeah, I know that! Duh! But I'd also be the girl, dawg!"
-- "Doesn't matter if you're the girl, Mark. The phrase is it's not gay if you're the guy! It doesn't say anything about if you're the girl. And even if you were, you'd still be the girl with the dildo fucking ass! You'd be THE GUY, man! Marking your territory like a dawg, boy!"
-- "FUCK YEEEEEAAAH!!!!!"

Or at least somebody tell him that his "comic-geek obsessed with scruffy prison-macho-rape" thing is a hell of a lot more 'mincy' than whatever he's desperately trying to run away from.

It's what happens when grown writers have the same level of maturity as a 7 year old that thinks good HBO shows are mature and adult only because of curse words, existence of sex and rapes (seriously, it's like a child trying to see what's behind the adults' closed doors, and late-night dirty jokes -- and getting it all wrong!). I guess there's not much to do other than to believe in your own maturity (/ being a blowhard about comic writers on internet forums) and say "yes, sweetie, that's what he meant; now go play fake-whip-yourself, fake-mutilate and throw poop on yourself over there..." -- "I AM TEH FUCKING NIGHT AND I KNOW REAL LIFE'S GRIM AND DARKNESS! FLYING GROWN MEN IN COLORED SPANDEX WIPE THEIR ASSES AFTER A SHIT IN MY SERIOUS AND TAKE-NO-BULLSHIT REALISTIC WORLD!").
 
 
This Sunday
08:10 / 24.04.07
Am I wrong to be a bit taken aback by guys incapable, apparently, of recognizing the difference been an erect penis and a soft one? That they might not recognize female equipment is one thing, but surely, they... I mean it's just a bit weird, that.

Do love the disdain that puts a well-equipped fellow on par with porn, though. Not at all like the tasteful ribless bend-woman with the mutant cameltoe and giant floaty-chest, or the occasional luscious, fear-faced rape victim to be. That's class, there. Good for the kids. Won't anyone think of the kids?

Anyone else noticing that we can have transgender lesbian popsingers on the daytime soaps, these days? Look at 'All My Children' and their (overdrawn, hamhanded, and slightly annoying but still there) sexual politicking and attempting to be interesting. And the requisite virile, double virile young goodlookers. And Susan Lucci.

You couldn't even get Susan Lucci into a comic these days without there being some outcry of 'They're raping our minds with weird sex stuff! I don't have to see it, I can smell it up out of the pages!' Y'know, unless she was an 'empowered and willfull' young ribless type with an extremely articulated spine and helium-teats. For the little girls to look up to.

Ellis' thing about doing proper heroic nonwhite characters in his superhero stuff had a good point. It comes down to pride. Whether racially, sexually, or what have you. If the superbooks aren't there to look at somebody with pride, then what's the point? Unless that is your point, in which case, best to be prepared to run with that point in mind. I take it that's probably the thrust of the new kill the president book Ellis is doing.

So, you would think a good-looking male protagonist with steel-skin and well-loaded shorts would again, push those pride buttons a little. He's not an absurd blow-up toy - at least, not from what we've seen. So the only opposition is that he's got a big dick. Oh, dear. A more dramaqueeny version of the 'JLA Classified' (minor) panic over Superman wearing biking shorts for Lois. Supes wouldn't do that, y'know, demean himself with tight clothing that would reveal... Oh.

But, what do I know? At six I'm pretty sure I wanted to be (the Elliot S! Maggin and Mike Grell) Barbara Gordon.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:49 / 24.04.07
Am I wrong to be a bit taken aback by guys incapable, apparently, of recognizing the difference been an erect penis and a soft one? That they might not recognize female equipment is one thing, but surely, they... I mean it's just a bit weird, that.

Subconscious shield against acknowledge the size issue. That and some guys are particularly weird about their sexuality; I've met men who won't actually touch their own equipment on the grounds that they don't want to touch male bits (or at least they said that, failing to avoid giving off slightly uncomfortable vibes and not understanding why none of the women nearby wanted to, you know, sit by them).

So, you would think a good-looking male protagonist with steel-skin and well-loaded shorts would again, push those pride buttons a little.

Now I really want to see Steel in a series with the Bulleteer.

Oh, dear. A more dramaqueeny version of the 'JLA Classified' (minor) panic over Superman wearing biking shorts for Lois. Supes wouldn't do that, y'know, demean himself with tight clothing that would reveal... Oh.

And yet somehow I doubt any of them complained when Busiek and Pacheco had Clark come home to find Lois in a negligee for their anniversary.
 
 
Rachel Evil McCall
15:46 / 24.04.07
I've met men who won't actually touch their own equipment on the grounds that they don't want to touch male bits (or at least they said that, failing to avoid giving off slightly uncomfortable vibes and not understanding why none of the women nearby wanted to, you know, sit by them).

But surely, whilst showering, they must do some cleansing there? Right?

Right?

...

Eww.
 
 
This Sunday
15:57 / 24.04.07
But surely, whilst showering

I'm continually horrified when guys admit they don't clean certain parts of their anatomy. Not all of them typically sex-related parts, but still...

What scares me is that they might not be able to see the bits they aren't cleaning.

I'd almost forgotten why I don't go into comics shops these days.

And, looking at the 'Totally Appropriate Covers' blog thingy, does anyone else feel the satire killed the point? Other than Batman's butt holding a Superman symbol. But, really, if they'd drawn Batman in the same position as WW in that F Miller cover, sure, that's a point made (and I'd probably like the cover, but then, that's me). By shooting for the extreme closeups... That GL cover looks like it could be a reverse-world version of a current GL cover. The others... I now want to know if people deliberately avoid drawing male supertypes from behind, unless there's a cape covering everything.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:00 / 24.04.07
But surely, whilst showering, they must do some cleansing there? Right?

You don't want to know. I don't want to know. We were never sure how much of it was just weirdly motivated posturing or what. Luckily the particular person I'm thinking of was barely an acquaintence.

I think the reaction to the Citizen Steel thing would bother me more beyond the oh dear if it wasn't so expected, really -- these are the people who felt uncomfortable with Superman giving them "sexy eyes" (ignoring the fact that in the Silver Age was he totally a winker!). They expect their men to only perpetuate violence rather than sex, and certainly not anything approaching healthy, comfortable sex.
 
 
Mug Chum
16:01 / 24.04.07
(off-topic post)
Superman wearing biking shorts for Lois

I'm sorry, I haven't seen that... but how can anyone not see that, AT THE LEAST, as adorable?! "Uh, gee Lois, not that it isn't swell..." (silenced stare from Lois/ Margot Kidder wonderfully doesn't shut up with orange juice on her hand).

For /(Demanded by) Lois? Of course he would, Goddamn it! Bubbling farm boy would even grow a Steven Seagal's ponytail and mullets if she asked him to!
(calm down, she didn't. Clark just says she did to Batman, Jor-El and Rao; Batman saw right through it)
 
 
This Sunday
16:10 / 24.04.07
It's from Ellis' short run, New Maps of Hell which I kinda liked, but hardly anyone else appears to have. There's a joke about Clark killing an intern Lois was checking out and stealing his coffee. She orders him, I believe, to be ready at home that night, so when she gets there, he's waiting wearing the shorts and bearing coffee.

It's horribly cute, and just the sort of thing you'd expect Lois to demand. And the fanboys had a fit over it. Small fit, but disgustingly paranoid, nonetheless.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:14 / 24.04.07
It's horribly cute, and just the sort of thing you'd expect Lois to demand. And the fanboys had a fit over it. Small fit, but disgustingly paranoid, nonetheless.

That reads as distressingly "My parents do not do that" to me. Flex Mentallo to the rescue!
 
 
Mug Chum
16:20 / 24.04.07
I'm continually horrified when guys admit they don't clean certain parts of their anatomy. Not all of them typically sex-related parts, but still...

I swear to God! I came this close from taking an oath to never shake men's hands ever, ever again! I actually started to think "am I what they call 'a pussy' for washing my hands after using the toilet? Or I wonder if I have OCD"...

My friend's boyfriend says he doesn't soaps his lower regions - I kid you not - since the foam slides down. I don't want to know if it includes privates, but either way I feel sorry for her. Apparently some men can be quite awkward with their parts.

these are the people who felt uncomfortable with Superman giving them "sexy eyes"

Damn, I'd forgotten about that...

Damn...
 
 
This Sunday
17:21 / 24.04.07
Out of curiosity, now that the thread's properly brought back to life (for a bit), has anyone checked out Adam Warren's 'Empowered'? Has it got proper commentary in its pandering, or just the pandering?

And the Steele fella is tied in with the Bulleteer, yeah? Little bit, at least? Because if they aren't right now, eventually someone's going to do it.
 
 
The Falcon
18:42 / 24.04.07
I'm intending getting Empowered next month; the reviews from as disparate sources such as Dirk Deppey suggest that it is, you know, self-aware - which doesn't really surprise me, given Adam Warren is generally a bona fide genius.
 
 
This Sunday
10:31 / 15.05.07
Thinking about the MJ Watson Parker statuette as noted in the Untamed Hate thread, and Thinking Palindrome Fishes/Am Papers? suggestion of a She-Hulk story... now that Spider-Man is outted as Parker, now that everyone knows and presuming the black costume hasn't made everyone forget, are there people out there in the MU making digital porn fakery with Peter and MJ or Peter and random other celebrities?

If we can deal seriously like adults with who Gwen did or did not have sex with, is it possible to use current Spider-status to address that kind of meta-issue without oh, admitting kids know that photoshopped pictures of celebrities and politicians in funny naked poses exist, and still have something interesting/pointed to say?

Taking characters off-model, or trying to pretend that were Peter and MJ real folks, they'd be very much not the hot couple, isn't the way forward. Trying to pretend someone with large breasts suddenly doesn't is as silly as trying to neuter and smooth off the crotches of all the men in comics. Pretending that subservience and rape-ableness are qualities young girls are going to find inspiring in their superheroines, is not the way out of this.

Why is no one doing a Vicki Victim styled comic, directly aimed at the people who could (a) use a good laugh at themselves, and/or (b) use a good wake up call? To encourage those of us hovering all over comics but uninterested or outright annoyed with the bulk of the monthly options and the tremendously horrid marketing tics of late?

Maybe that's what Adam Warren's Empowered will end up looking like, but I imagine the satire there will be fairly laid back.

For supertights stuff, there was basically that Elseworld's Finest with Supergirl and Batgirl, and... the occasional point in something Grant Morrison or Gail Simone are writing, and that's it. A fair bit of Runaways.

John Byrne writes Wonder Woman and she has to fight Misogyny Man for a moral lesson every issue. See, it's not the cheesecake that bothers me. Being happily polymorphously perverse, I'm not bothered by cheesecake in either direction, but when it keeps a scene, a story, or a character from being taken seriously, or when it's hand in hand with some antisex or weirdly misogynistic yet po-facedly decorated as pro-woman?

Claims that the current Supergirl supersexed teen thing, or MJ bent over so awkwardly, ready to wash the Spidey suit... and then seeing fans try to correct the statement of sculpture-thingies based on those portrayals, by adding a belly and knocking some teeth out? Are they missing the part of superhero comics, where everyone's superpowerful, action-ready, and regress to getcher shirt off lovegods in the desert at any given excuse? Or do they really believe that respect/encouragement for a female audience in what pretends to be a series of childrens stories, is to be toothless, pregnant (but not having actual sex or doing anything knowingly sexy), and subservient?

I'm not quite sure why there's even a pretense at certain characters, series, or statuettes being aimed to inspire branch X of youth or general audience. Growing up, Marvel had the Black Panther and Wyatt Wingfoot - I liked other characters, but those were pretty much my favorites - but, DC had Batgirl and Zatanna, who could be traced through back issue bins from title to title as she searched for her father and generally nearly got the Atom or the Hawk-couple killed every time she appeared. Phil Jiminez has essentially staked claim over Donna Troy. Devon Grayson is still waiting for Arsenal to take his shirt off more often.

Does that gender-sell ever actually work for supertights comics? Has it ever, really? Did girls really buy Supergirl over Superman? In comics in general, do little girls read more Betty and Veronica and little boys while away the hours dreaming they were Archie Andrews?

This works in toys, sure, and to some degree, television/movies, but it doesn't seem to have been particularly efficient in comics. In supertights comics, anyway.

Where's the autocrit book just for setting some things straight, demonstrating the flaws of the standard or just replacing the standards with something functional?
 
  

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