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Scary Sex Stuff

 
  

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Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:39 / 06.06.07
It sounds a bit bollocks from what I've seen so far of Xavin's characterization - he usually specified that while he was capable of being female, he identified and felt male, regardless of whether the male in question was Skrull or human-shaped. I can see that Whedon's probably trying to give himself some room to breathe with the Karo/Xav relationship, based on what was established, but.

Reminds me of how Waid's threeboot Legion has ostensibly rendered Chameleon (Boy) gender-neutral because of hir xenomorphic shape-shifting, but I haven't been a particularly devoted reader to the newest LSH so I don't know how well he's dealt with Cham's fluidity...the characterization of the Legion in general never really caught with my imagination much.
 
 
This Sunday
21:49 / 08.06.07
Jerry Ordway discusses the 'darkening' of Mary Marvel, and has some interesting things to say. He was as annoyed with the Peter David Mary-molested story as were many, but for slightly different reasons than I was. He also conflates losing her virginity with 'darkening.' Only bad people do that, or something.

Still not a big fan of the Jeff Smith take, either, which empowered her by turning her into a little kid (twinning plot-mechanics necessitated it, but still, it's letting her be more proactive and potent by reducing her to toddler status), still finding the Countdown cover to be extremely passive instead of evil/darkened, and wow, now I'm a bit soured on the Ordway take.

Am I reading into this too much?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:13 / 09.06.07
Still not a big fan of the Jeff Smith take, either, which empowered her by turning her into a little kid (twinning plot-mechanics necessitated it, but still, it's letting her be more proactive and potent by reducing her to toddler status), still finding the Countdown cover to be extremely passive instead of evil/darkened, and wow, now I'm a bit soured on the Ordway take.

Really? I adore Jeff Smith's Mary Marvel exactly because she runs counter to the inherent assertion that you need to be a grown-up like Captain Marvel to be powerful. Mary doesn't have to sublimate herself to be strong and mighty, and it doesn't matter to her that she's a girl, either.

Mike Wieringo talks on his blog about Mary Marvel as a possible perfect candidate for one of the MINX imprint's books as a super-hero introduction.

As to her "darkening" - well, we haven't really seen any evidence beyond her getting Adam's colour scheme. And, sure, there's those Eclipso teaser images, but temptation/rejection of internal darkness (and, frankly, even Mary deserves to have a bit of darkness all her own) is such an old trope in comics that I suspect she's not going to stay dark...
 
 
This Sunday
02:43 / 09.06.07
If Smith's Mary were a wholly new character, I wouldn't have the problem, and as it is I do like his CM-verse take in general and even most of his Mary Marvel. The de-aging keeps it from being any form of adoring, though. Pet peeve, I guess.

I think I'd like to see Wieringo drawing a Mary Marvel book under the right writer. I really like the sketch in that blog entry.
 
 
TroyJ15
23:54 / 10.06.07
Troyj15 I'm thinking Pop Art may not be the best qualifier for the issue at hand. Not that they aren't examples of pop art, arguably, but a primary difference between, say, the Spidey-centric covers and the H4H cover is that one is panderng to a presumed audience who need their protagonists whimpering, helpless and frightened, while exposing some good-looking flesh (as opposed to the rotting zombie kind) and getting decorated with unnamed bodily fluids by xenomorphic insectile rape machines from space. That difference outweighs the similarity that the covers may not literally represent the story behind that cover.

I have to admit, at the risk of sounding general, if that's the argument then the issue is as much a feminist issue as it is a "weirdo-perv-tentacle-porn-freaks" issue. And the world can really do without them. For real.

But, as questionable as it may be --- I still consider tentacle porn "Pop Art."

You discredit yourself, the male half of the population and more relevantly the diverse and various female bodies in the world by making this comment.
c)glistening- people do not glisten Troy and complimenting women generally just for being women in such a peculiar way is not charming, it's weird, even as a joke.


Uhhhhh, the whole comment was just a joke. Sorry? I was just coming from an intentionally bias, closed-ended point-of-view. Again, I'm playing Devil's Advocate. I honestly believe that there is no REAL right or wrong and every situation should be approached from all angles. So, I have to, simultaneously, say what I know (It is mysognistic) and what I feel (It's a sexy little statue). Just know that I'm not contradicting, I'm just picking away at people to get a perspective. I'm not an animal --- I promise

The "cultural differences" argument is such a pile of shit, and not just because it's all based on presumption.

This is nitpicking, but I feel too many of the arguments I here is based on presumption. I'm hearing:

Adam Hughes is a racist.
The artist is oppressed.
Joe Quesada is EVERYTHING EVIL!

But, I say that to say this --- alot in forums are going to be presumptions. So we should get to the truth of the matter. Anybody got Marvel's phone number
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:09 / 11.06.07
Decadent: I think I'd like to see Wieringo drawing a Mary Marvel book under the right writer.

After seeing this, I'd also love to see Mary drawn by Dean Trippe more often. I really do think she'd be a wicked cool superhero entry into the MINX line.
 
 
Lugue
01:18 / 12.06.07
I honestly believe that there is no REAL right or wrong and every situation should be approached from all angles. So, I have to, simultaneously, say what I know (It is mysognistic) and what I feel (It's a sexy little statue).

The point being, I think, the Wrong of "mysoginist" kicks the guts the fuck out of the Right of "sexy". Not in the sense that "sexy" must be prohibited, but that it's rather irrelevant to this topic, so for me at least, it's hard to see where you're getting at with that.

This is nitpicking, but I feel too many of the arguments I here is based on presumption. I'm hearing:

Adam Hughes is a racist.
The artist is oppressed.
Joe Quesada is EVERYTHING EVIL!


I don't really think anyone's made statements one and three, rather, specific comments and reactions have been identified as problematic. There's a difference. As for two, well then, two opposed sets of assumptions:

* the artist, as a woman, is affected by her experiences as a woman and as such develops a view of what is admissable or not in terms of women's sexual representation, that is influenced by the culture she is a part of, a male-dominated one (or if you like: one where male sexuality rules).

* the artist, as a woman, is unaffected by her experiences as a woman, and expresses herself artistically directly from some objective core of artistic purity.

Knowing human nature, the first one seems much more plausible, and as such, the comment not that far-fetched. So it seems alright to take it and run with it in how things are interpreted.
 
 
Ticker
13:21 / 12.06.07
So, I have to, simultaneously, say what I know (It is mysognistic) and what I feel (It's a sexy little statue).


You didn't go and read the Feminism 101 thread as suggested, did you...?
So you really have no clue why your statement is contradictory and adding insult to injury?

I'm not trying to brow beat you and I do think if you read the thread in Convo linked back a page it would help. However in case Fulano Folia's kind words on this page don't register let me make this as simple as possible for you:

If something harms another person directly and you are aware of the injury, it is shit poor social/ethical behavior to still derive enjoyment from it and foster its continued existence. In fact it makes you a selfish jerk and that's why we're not letting it slide.

Don't get me wrong I have compassion for your struggle with this. I personally favor hentai which is often in the center of this very same maelstrom. I am however willing to give up my sexy little thrills in favor of ones that do not have such direct harmful impact on people. So I'm placing other people's personal pain above my non vital entertainment.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:30 / 13.06.07
Dorian looks at the Previews and finds this. Shiver. The Venus de Milo as Horrorshow.

We could - and many have - get into a fairly decent debate on depictions of Emma Frost and how they line up with her characterization, whether or not this is a good thing - but honestly, what is with Marvel putting out truly creepy maquettes? I tend to find that Emma works better as an image on the page rather than as a three-dimensional slab of ... thing. Superhero costumes are highly unrealistic as it stands without trying to make Frost's costume...a step closer to real?

In general, I don't get the maquette headset, and things like this just push me further away.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:59 / 13.06.07
Yeah, what I find confusing about something like the above item is why anybody would want to actually own one. Surely people don't use them for as fuel for their own, very private erotic shadowplay (well all right, I suppose a section of the customer base might do, but then I dare say John McCririck is a sex symbol for some -presumably these characters are a minority of the target audience) so what else are their supporters getting out of them? The Mary Jane Watson statue may now have a certain kitsch value, I suppose, on account of it's notoriety, plus its fairly breathtaking awfulness, but that still wouldn't explain why it was commissioned in the first place. Let's face it, these things are neither useful or beautiful, they're not especially funny (or at least I'm pretty sure the joke would wear thin after a couple of weeks, at most) they're certainly not cool, and they don't really do anything except possibly send out a fairly strong message that their owner is someone to be treated with caution, so why does anyone give them houseroom? I'd be genuinely interested to know.
 
 
TroyJ15
03:52 / 14.06.07
If something harms another person directly and you are aware of the injury, it is shit poor social/ethical behavior to still derive enjoyment from it and foster its continued existence. In fact it makes you a selfish jerk and that's why we're not letting it slide.



I understand what you're saying. I got it the first time. But, I'm a conflicted individual, I guess. I know it's contradictory. I'm just saying I recognize the problem you have with it. I'm not outright dismissing your disdain for it...I get why it's wrong and I give a thumbs up for those who feel the same way. I'm not against you on that it is mysogynistic. I recognize that it is. But I feel that was the point of it. To be mysognistic eye candy. As a man, I like it. I know you have a problem with it and I understand why but I like it. Again, Devil's Advocate. I see it from both sides of the fence and I choose not to jump on either side.

they're certainly not cool, and they don't really do anything except possibly send out a fairly strong message that their owner is someone to be treated with caution, so why does anyone give them houseroom? I'd be genuinely interested to know.

That's because you are looking at it through a females eyes. That of a female who was instantly offended by it. To me it's a persuasive statue of one of comics most well-known female characters. And yes it is cool because of the underlying sexual nature of it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:21 / 14.06.07
Could you possibly go and check out what a devil's advocate is before you carry on, Troy? It is not somebody who "sees both sides of the fence". Somebody who sees both sides of the fence is a security guard, or possibly a clairvoyant with very limited, fence-oriented powers.

There's more to say about this, and XK raised an interesting question that could usefully be explored, but by the looks of it not here.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:00 / 14.06.07
Incidentally, as a full-on, hairy-chested male, as is the person behind Alex's Grandma, I can say with confidence that the maquette is not cool. It is a very handy indicator of the sort of decoration somebody might want to put in a drawer before inviting a woman back to his home, were such a thing to take place. And perhaps to spend long evenings staring at, wondering why exactly one bought it in the first place, when one could have purchased a DVD box set or quite a few of Peter David's excellent Star Trek Academy novels.

This is partly what I found so disheartening about the article Der Falke linked to. The "feminists are making us ashamed of our sexual desires" stuff was the usual bollocks, but it brought in the disquieting thought that the Mary-Jane statue, despite her scoliosis and hideous grimace of agony, might provide onanistic material. The thought of dingy troglodytes punishing the pudding while gazing at this tiny breasty lady is... well, it's harrowing.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:28 / 14.06.07
Uhhhhh, the whole comment was just a joke. Sorry? I was just coming from an intentionally bias, closed-ended point-of-view.

Dude, people express that point of view every day on the Internet, we don't need more people to come from a biased and closed-ended place. To play devil's advocate is completely unnecessary and it's not about right and wrong, it's about thinking about who you want to be and if you actually want to advocate this nonsense. Stop posting, venture out of comics and look at the nature of this space then think about why you're coming from light-space because the response to you has been nice so far but what you're saying is really very uncool. You're approaching this from one angle, that angle is "look at my cock" and I don't care about your cock, you are a bunch of words to me.

And if it's misogynistic then why is it sexy? IT'S NOT. Misogyny is not sexy (especially in the form of a fucking STATUE).
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:31 / 14.06.07
But I feel that was the point of it. To be mysognistic eye candy. As a man, I like it.

Oh do piss off.
 
 
Spaniel
11:29 / 14.06.07
Troy, not only do I find your point of view rather unpleasant in that I tend to be rather unconflicted about misogyny, I also find it slightly embarrassing.

You like that stuff? In a sexy way?
 
 
Ticker
11:41 / 14.06.07
That's because you are looking at it through a females eyes. That of a female who was instantly offended by it. To me it's a persuasive statue of one of comics most well-known female characters. And yes it is cool because of the underlying sexual nature of it.


Okay once again, do you have any idea why this is absolutely offensive and positions you as an ignorant person? I'm using ignorant in the dictionary sense of uneducated here.

That's because you are looking at it through a females eyes.

Dude, this is a ridiculous generalization that means nothing. You don't know how other people look at things on an absolute scale and to say so is a piss poor attempt to justify your original belief. Do you know how my gaze is different from your gaze? No you only know your gaze and if you paid a bit more attention you'd realize we all bring a mix of experiences to bear when interpreting what we see.

I wasn't instantly offended by it, I was instantly groaningly bored by a non imaginative predictable visual trope. I like my smut with artistry. The offense happened when my brain engaged to process it. Just like yours when you realize it is misogynistic.

And yes it is cool because of the underlying sexual nature of it.

Uh well considering advertising in our culture does this mean you spend a lot of time turned on looking at anything on TV, magazines, movies, and the other assorted commercial venues? If so I strongly advise you to engage your editorial thought processes a bit more quickly. Or else you're likely to be pulled into a consumer frenzy of cool useless sexy things.


I understand what you're saying. I got it the first time. But, I'm a conflicted individual, I guess. I know it's contradictory. I'm just saying I recognize the problem you have with it. I'm not outright dismissing your disdain for it...I get why it's wrong and I give a thumbs up for those who feel the same way. I'm not against you on that it is mysogynistic. I recognize that it is. But I feel that was the point of it. To be mysognistic eye candy. As a man, I like it. I know you have a problem with it and I understand why but I like it. Again, Devil's Advocate. I see it from both sides of the fence and I choose not to jump on either side.

as a man, I like it.

Dude, as a Troy you like it. It really isn't about your bits or your testosterone level. It's about your conditioning through out your life as to what flips your switches. What we're struggling to point out to you is you weren't born along with half the human race to have an automatic sex-on for this image. That response has been ingrained into you throughout your life. I can say this with authority because a) other men who are posting in this thread do not find it sexy b)other cultures have other standards of bodily sexiness that the statue does not fit into c) I recognize the triggers being used but am no longer affected by them through those images.

You see Troy, as a woman in our shared culture I have been exposed to the same images as you. Same perspective. I've gone through deconstructing that someone's gaze was handed to me in everything I'm presented with. Really I'm not making this up you can see it in entertainment camera shots when the entire audience is zoomed into a cleavage shot or long lip lick or whatever.

The point is you need to stop saying here in your posts that the reason you find these things sexy is because you're male. It's not a true absolute reason. You find these things sexy because you are a member of a culture that presents them as sexy and you've internalized that and reference it when looking. Looking is active, kiddo.

If you can come to understand it's programming you then have the option to change it. As you know it is misogynistic you do in fact have the choice of not finding it sexy. It really isn't a default setting tied into your hormonal make up any more than racism is.

You have a choice and every time you say you don't we're going to poke you in the eye because every reason you can come up with is easily proven false.

You find it sexy because you choose to, which is your choice, but do not attempt to place the blame on your sperm count.
 
 
Quantum
13:38 / 14.06.07
As a man, I fucking hate that statue and everything it represents, Troy please don't claim your opinion has anything to do with mine just because we both have pee-pees.
A woman's eyes? Grandma's instantly offended because of his woman's eyes? Misogyny is sexy? Devil's advocate, both sides of the fence? Do, please, shut up.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
15:12 / 14.06.07
Hmmmm - I don't have anything much to add that others, most notably XK haven't already expressed better than I have, but I do kind of feel the need to express as an owner of manparts that in as much as I like 'eye-candy' at all I prefer mine in the non-misogynistic variety. So as others have said Troy please don't portray being a man as an explanation for one finding misogyny sexy or cool.
 
 
Princess
16:10 / 14.06.07
Got a nob.
Haven't got wood.
The statue is pure excrement.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:26 / 14.06.07
But I feel that was the point of it. To be mysognistic eye candy. As a man, I like it. I know you have a problem with it and I understand why but I like it. Again, Devil's Advocate. I see it from both sides of the fence and I choose not to jump on either side.


As I think XK suggested above, this is as weird and problematic a statement to me as "the point of it was to be a racist joke. It was racist, and it was a joke. I understand it's racist, but I love the joke."

THE "RACIST" BIT WOULD CANCEL OUT THE "JOKE" BIT FOR MOST PEOPLE.

Sorry but this just seems a no-brainer to me.
 
 
Mug Chum
17:27 / 14.06.07
Deadwood.

I just compared in my head comics with something everybody used to make fun of for being extremely pathetic exploitive delusional wank fodder, Baywatch. It now feels as if the life-guard show was made by a evangelical network. "Fox turned into a hardcore porn channel so gradually I didn't even noticed". My God, what's wrong with people buying that Emma Frost statue? "yes I want to decorate my house with softcore heroine porn that has the sleeze of hardcore, but with a very ugly look, as if I just took her from the trash can of a peephole shop, NO, NO, it's not porn! No!" Don't these guys (and Marvel and DC specially) realize that it's really not about the sex, but the sexuality of it? It's like seeing a group of people thinking porn is realistic reality tv.

I guess this is the point where you realize that comics has become as much as a tiny specific niche as people who order clipped nails painted with hobbits eating grapes through ebay or something.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:41 / 14.06.07
Emma Frost statue blurb:

The figure of Emma Frost attaches to the base through two metal bars in her feet that fit into pegs, and she's nearly ten inches tall (with another inch due to the base). The statue wears sexy clothes, has a killer body, gives you that 'come hither' look and she never talks back. What's not to like!

Jesus.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:45 / 14.06.07
and she never talks back

You know, regardless of how you feel Emma is ever depicted, she should always talk back, she should always be in the driver's seat, and you'll always be submitting to her will.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:45 / 14.06.07
(in other words, what the fuck)
 
 
Mug Chum
17:55 / 14.06.07
Oh don't worry, she won't talk but I'm sure the telepathy sending guilty thoughts (or maybe that'll just be her silenced eyes) might be there, "disgusting little perv, stop wanking at me! Gaaak!!!", responded by fapfap "ooh that's hot, it's just telephaty, I have to battle her, have to battle her".

I mean, even if she was a mute porn actress in the comics (she might kick ass, but her sexuality's always first it seems)... that thing and it's entire description is 900.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 dead sperms too wrong.
 
 
Mug Chum
17:59 / 14.06.07
I thought the statue of a disemboweled bride MJ eaten by zombie spidey was topping...

Ok, screw this, I'm going home.

FUUUUUCK!
 
 
Quantum
18:16 / 14.06.07
From the Emma Frost blurb also;
"Due to continued mutation (kind of like continuing education), she can assume a diamond-hard form (and she seems to be able to project some of that hardness on any men who see her). When she is in her nearly indestructible form she loses her psionic abilities and pretty much any compassion or humanity she has. And they wonder why women are so frustrating to men..."

Euw. Just horrible.
Turns out there is a whole industry of horrible soft porn collectible dolls for boys, I think I was happier before I knew.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:32 / 14.06.07
As an aside, didn't the Arthur Suydam who drew the Mary Jane/Marvel Zombies cover above used to post on Barbelith a few years ago? I could be thinking of someone completely different, but wasn't there an aspiring comics artist of the same name who used to show up every now and again?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:45 / 14.06.07
Sudnam. Was alright when he first starting posting, became a bit of a dick later on.
 
 
Ticker
19:11 / 14.06.07
I've been poking around in my own head with the idea of why fictional/unreal characters seem to be thought of as 'safe' for these sexual uses by people who would not consciously elect to have the projection with living humans and to some degree images of living humans. Yet this objectification is a loop feeding into itself and that excuse really may not hold up in direct sunlight. Treating an object like an object would be one thing but we aren't being excited by the lump of resin or the hentai still, rather it is the fantasy of our interaction with the represented persona.

I think very few of us stop at the image being a passive unreal object when we use it erotically. There springs to life an interaction in our minds, it maybe incredibly limited and self centered, but surely in that moment we're not thinking about resin statues as much as the fictional persona come to life. We attribute sensations and reactions to them as if they were able to experience anything at all.

It's not Pygmalionism literally, rather our Galatea's spring to life for a brief period in our fantasies while we get what we need taken care of and then we have them fall back inert.

I'm going out on a limb here but...It's that moment when we are fantasizing about sexual events involving the fictional persona that is dangerous to our everyday interactions with real people. In our imaginations they are not harmed by the roles we have them assume so we don't experience the consquences of subjugating another person. To be clear here because on some level we are programming ourselves through physical stimuli and entraining to a scenerio we run the risk of not always being able to separate fantasy from reality. Crazy talk I know...

You go into the dirty little private fun room in your mind do your stuff and think you leave it all in there when you come back out, but I suspect we're ignoring how our relationship with our fantasies informs/colors our expectations of other people.

Stereotypes and the harm they cause maybe of use to us here. Stereotypes aren't real beings but attitudes toward them impact people's interactions with real other people. I think the direction I'm heading with this is that our sexual fantasies of these hentacles/MJ statues, are not only manifestations of sterotypes we cling to and justify but do in fact continue to inform our world views.

A wise woman once told me our sexual fantasies often reveal the issues our conscious mind hasn't tackled yet. I'm starting to think if you want to check the status of your detox from the -isms this is where you need to look.
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:35 / 20.07.07
Indeed . . .

Recently CBR ran a 4 part series titled HOMOSEXUALITY IN COMICS

Parts 1 & 2 introduce the reader to such luminaries as Marc Andreyko, Lillian Diaz-Przbyl, Devin Grayson, Terrance Griep and Mark Millar, Allan Heinberg, Scott Lobdell, Alan Moore and Greg Rucka. In some cases qualifying their inclusion with either their personal sexual orientation or notable works in comics.


In Part 3 these participants discuss the Comics Code, the stigma of comics as a children's medium, whether homosexuality is a lifestyle choice or a genetic predisposition, and the tendency for fictional GLBT characters to be defined by their sexuality.

Finally in Part 4 these participants pick what they consider well-informed portrayals of LGBT characters in comics, and sort of outline the state of homosexuality in comics.

While there are a few Gems and Turds to be found, I thought it would be worth including here simply for bringing this all too interesting thread back to life.
 
 
This Sunday
17:02 / 20.07.07
It's interesting to see a general humanizing element in all four parts, as opposed to the objectifying/othering that sort of shows up in CBR's other panel-ruminations of this sort, from gender to racial. Nice, really, over all - even if the 'character based' nineties of Lobdell-World gets me scratching my head a bit, and I found Moore's mention of the 'boy lovers' 300 line interesting in light of his periodic conflation of inter-generational attraction and male homosexuality.

Definitely agree on the bigging up of Jackie from Top 10, and the bit about the paranoia that comics, or any entertainment, will make someone's kids gay fell right in line with some things I'm prepping for at work, so that was nice.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:46 / 20.07.07
It's nice to seem something positive (or at least, positively-aimed) in here. I was also pleased to see the inclusion of Devin Grayson to break up the gay-maleness of the write-up, although I could have done to see more balance in the participants - mostly because, oddly, a great deal more energy was expended on examining her childhood and early exploration of her sexuality. It was there amongst the gay male panelists but to a much smaller extent, but while Grayson's talking about making out with girls in the basement, Andreyko's talking about gay people being beaten up. And there was no discussion of the straight (or queetoro) panelists's sexualities. You could, in fact, pick them out by their absence - which might be part of the point, yeah, and otherness is always going to be foregrounded, but the introductions felt remarkably uneven. They don't even mention anything Andreyko's written.
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:59 / 20.07.07
there was no discussion of the straight (or queetoro) panelists's sexualities.

This was something that stuck out for me as well. Especially when the qualifications implied for some of those writers placed the emphasis on the work they produced instead. Mark Millar's "outing" of Appolo & Midnighter as well as Lobdell's outing of Northstar.

Why not actually make contact with the writers who actually created those characters?
 
  

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