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Scary Sex Stuff

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18:24 / 20.07.07

Why not actually make contact with the writers who actually created those characters?

Because Warren Ellis has downplayed any hype about Midnighter and Apollo's sexuality, writing them as actual human beings. I mean, you don't see anyone going on about him making the Martian Manhunter analog gay, or anyone from Global Frequency or whatever.

And the other option is John Byrne.

I was kinda surprised not to see more of a penciller presence, actually, and some discussion about visual representation. Or, y'know, Frank Miller, who's certainly written and drawn enough material to cover many fronts of homosexuality, from Batstalking to Hell and Back and provides interesting soundbites, even when annoying or enfuriating, as opposed to... Lobdell either got shortchanged by the cropping of whatever was talked about, along with Andreyko, or else he just didn't have much reason to be there, though I am wondering where the Storm/Yukio kiss was and wondering why we couldn't just have Northstar kiss Wolverine or somebody if it's good enough for Lobdell's representation of gay women.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

18:40 / 20.07.07

Having read various things with John Byrne talking about Northstar in the past, I'm actually surprised they didn't call on him. He's very, very distressing in a lot of ways but he was rather eloquent on his original intentions for Northstar, and when the sexuality thing cropped up in the early issues of Alpha Flight.

20:47 / 20.07.07

Because Warren Ellis has downplayed any hype about Midnighter and Apollo's sexuality, writing them as actual human beings.

Well that sort of makes my point for me . . . I think.

Same with Byrne, despite what he'd say about just about anything else. He did produce a very effective portrait of the character at a time when it really would not have been imagined. Might it even be considered a highlight of his career?

20:59 / 20.07.07

Mr Tricks, with Ellis, I was trying to make your point for you. Kinda. It would have been less about their sexuality and more onto interesting points like what it's like to forget what headaches or needing to defecate feels like, what it's like to be rely on one other person so intensely for so long, or to be violated and used as they were and come through it as arguably still good people.

It's like expecting to see Red Planet cast-members utilised for a panel on Native Americans in cinema, because it's well-handled (i.e., not specifically drawn out for Kilmer, Bratt, et al) and therefore progressive. Unlikely as it's not easily politicised or meda-sexy enough. Presumably, this is why we're given more of Devin Grayson (whom I really like, as an author and a personality) making out with other girls in her youth than we are the actual works or lives of many of the men involved.

I'd have liked to see something akin a general 'sexuality panel', I think. Though it'd need more than four parts. I think we've wondered about what exactly Millar gets up to between and all over the sheets, too long.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

21:35 / 20.07.07

Mr Tricks, with Ellis, I was trying to make your point for you. Kinda. It would have been less about their sexuality and more onto interesting points like what it's like to forget what headaches or needing to defecate feels like, what it's like to be rely on one other person so intensely for so long, or to be violated and used as they were and come through it as arguably still good people.

Ellis wrote them as gay people, certainly, but not ULTRA-BANNER GAY PEOPLE who could be adequately used to "promote diversity."

That said, not all of what Millar did with them was terrible, per se.

21:38 / 20.07.07

Interestingly, or otherwise, Alpha Flight is a part of the Byrne cannon that JB himself isn't very proud of, apparently.

Anyway, JB wouldn't have been available to be interviewed about his portrayal of Northstar or anything else because these days, as JB informed a fan on Byrne Robotics the other week, he's too busy for those, at the moment.

God only knows what the Great Man's up to ...

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

21:40 / 20.07.07

He has been oddly quiet of late...

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

21:25 / 19.10.07

Starting roughly here, in the Avengers thread, the topic of Tigra's scene with the Hood in a recent Avengers comic has spawned a bit of discussion about sexualized violence in comics. Specifically, Falcon asks:

'can a superheroine, or Tigra specifically, appear in a violent scene without it being sexualised?'

And then I asked,

Perhaps another question would be, how often does male/male violence in comics -- and in fact, male-female violence -- gear toward the sexualized (and in the case of male-female, geared towards sexualizing the male character)? The only example I can think of off the top of my head is Jack Knight's encounter with the Mist, but that is explictly not subtextual, and I'm not sure if "explicit" is really what we're talking about.

As the discussion was getting a bit broader than just the Avengers franchise, I thought I'd throw it over here to widen the discussion a little bit.

Anyone have any thoughts?

22:11 / 19.10.07

Occasional Superheroine directs you to a Bendis' interview entirely about that scene.

I haven't read it entirely (nor the issue), but Bendis' "not sexualized" comment seems odd if just for the sake that it's about the physical domination of a half-naked (with boob porn) wild tigress feline woman ("grrrr meow rrreeaaooow", blabla and shit) -- and that one of her shticks, from what I've read here and there, is that her wild animal side is usually joined up with her lust in her stories (one famous line on blogdom, it appears, it's something about being weak around anything with pants or something).

I still tend to think more and more the "realism" trope is somewhat binded around the root alongside with these skeevy sex issues in comics, just don't know yet how I could pin point it.

23:20 / 20.10.07

I think I have my excuse not to bother with either Avengers title, now. And here I thought Bendis could do something good with Tigra.

And just by random, two web-comics I was debating putting here or in the Racism thread, but since this one gets more traffic, there's this and this. Which, manage to have their own unexamined issues alongside the satirical targeting.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

07:03 / 21.10.07

Although "I'm Batman, and I can breathe in space." is a good line, which I intend to use whenever possible.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

07:13 / 21.10.07

Yes, this entry is going to take to task Brian Michael Bendis for being a disgustingly poor student of previous canonical continuity (or just not caring about the fact that whiplash-inducing sudden changes in basic characterization might catalyze a bunch of readers into hating you), for apparently being mind-numbingly insensitive to anything remotely resembling a discussion about gender and empowerment, for being heavy-handed, and for being a clumsy writer with overtones of outright exploitative misogyny in the latest issue of New Avengers.

12:29 / 21.10.07

I really don't agree with that: to me, Tigra isn't defenceless in that comic because Bendis has given her an all-new defenceless personality, but simply because of the way The Hood has planned it - appearing out of nowhere, fighting unfairly, carrying a gun, and knowing that, with his demon, he's much stronger than her.

12:35 / 21.10.07

But she doesn't even try to throw a punch and, as that blog shows, she gets shot in the back trying to run away. Anyway, does Tigra even know The Hood has super-strength? Would she, in the time it takes for the ambush to happen, even care about that?

12:48 / 21.10.07

But if she gets shot in the back trying to run away, doesn't that imply that the alternative was probably getting shot in the face? Can't really fault Bendis for making her try to avoid that. And maybe she doesn't throw a punch because it all happens so fast - making Tigra shocked and scared in that situation isn't the same as making her weak, when surely she's meant to be one of the more "human" of the Marvel superheroes.

I agree that the scene is sleazy but to me it's because of the art not the writing.

Essential Dazzler

12:54 / 21.10.07

Well, in the comic on the 5th panel on page 15 she actually does take a swing at The Hood but he disappears, from view and her heightened senses, and that's why she is standing still in confusion when she is shot in the leg.

21:10 / 21.10.07

But if she gets shot in the back trying to run away, doesn't that imply that the alternative was probably getting shot in the face? Can't really fault Bendis for making her try to avoid that.

Sure you can. Can you see Captain America shot in the back because he chickened out when the baddie pulled a gun? Hawkeye? Beast? Heck did Jarvis turn and run from the Masters of Evil?

Real person with gun in face? Turn and runs, good for them. Superhero? No. Superhero who has a long history of attacking without concern multiple armed badguys? WTF moment.

21:48 / 21.10.07

Yes, I'm basically with Decadent's point on this one. I've seen a lot of posts, mostly that Fangirls Attack directs you to, that basically shows Tigra kicking multiple armed asses.

Sure, Bendis' portrayal could be for the sake of an attempt in (sigh) realism. But surely the "realism" gun could be pointed to male superheroes every once in a while (and also, well, just because it's a gun and grimy urbane torture porn doesn't exclude the fact it's still a half-naked tiger-woman and a guy dressed in a Thundercats villain's clothes -- call me crazy, but the tiger-lady who kicks 15 armed asses in one swipe seems more honest to us and to itself, and realist).

22:06 / 21.10.07

And sorry, I just saw the Avengers thread and saw all my points were already mentioned there in better ways, expanded and taken to further depths.

(but, really, the little digital camera in that scene... it's the disgusting cherry on top of the gruesome subtext -- intentionally or not; and I've only seen a few panels)

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:10 / 22.10.07

Can I ask everyone who wants to discuss whether a scene in a comic has misogynistic overtones, through the tool of detailed discussion of the mechanics of that scene, to please make sure they have read the actual comic and comprehended those mechanics, so that they do not talk about characters being shot in the back who at no point are shot in the back in said comic? It helps nobody.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:09 / 22.10.07

The "but the Hood couldn't beat Tigra" argument is pretty pointless - comics are like pro wrestling, and if Tigra has to job for the Hood, c'est la vie. If the muddy art had portrayed the nose-breaky better, that might have helped with the credibility of the beatdown, but it's not the fact of the beatdown that's my issue but the execution, and in particular the way Tigra behaves entirely out of character - not actually just the whimpering and the begging during the fight, but the insistence on working in New York - given that she was based in Chicago or the West Coast for most of her heroing career, with a decent interval in space, I don't think she has displayed such a deep love of New York, whereas I imagine that Bendis probably has. It's a slapdash approach to character.

At worst, she could have her paws buttered before she moved. There, I said it. And I feel better.

10:09 / 22.10.07

If the internet has lied to me and nobody is shot in the back (or from behind while trying to get away), I apologize for spreading that misinformation. That the general line of defense is that Tigra getting messed is that it humanizes her or makes it realistic? That because the guy had a gun, clearly it's the way Bendis had to go with the scene? That nobody involved in making the issue put a sexualized gloss over some of it, whether other people working on the same comic did not intend such? Less apology, more that don't wash.

I'm not even against sexualized violence in entertaintment, really. Just the cries of it not being there. And Tigra looking all terrified and AIIIEEIIIEEE! when even the Avenger's butler would have shown more stoic/heroic tightlippedness. Whomever suggested replacing her with Darkhawk and seeing how it plays had it pretty well on, I think.

19:53 / 22.10.07

comics are like pro wrestling, and if Tigra has to job for the Hood, c'est la vie.

I agree, Haus. But it's icky that it feels like whenever it's a female character the managers decide to either a) have her kick ass in the lamest of ways just to foccus to us on her huge bubble butt, crotch or huge boucing half-naked boobs etc; or b) go for a out-of-the-blue sudden portrayal of realistic violence and too-humane reaction (I can't even remember ever seeing a villain getting that sort of treatment like Tigra does there).

While male superheroes can go the super-wrestler road, kick ass in that big dumb superhero style; or go through some 'realistic ninja' fight or 'realistic matrix-ish' beatdown -- in the sense that they never have a realistic/ normal characterization of a frozen-runaway "oh shit, a gun!", "shit, they're too many!", only 'realistic' versions of ninja circumvention (or whatever other method getting reader's "I can see that" pass) of such elements. Those issues of Daredevil in prison would have somewhat of another turn if the writer suddenly decided that the dangers a (blind) person could find in prison is suddenly faced with less superhero glamour like Tigra was missing.

The only sequences I could kind of compare to are those scenes where the hero loses briefly to come back kicking ass and chewing bubble gum (the "oh noes, Rocky is not going to win!" moments). I'll be taking a look after at Dark Knight Returns which somewhat had that scene ("blahblah old man" before becoming a surgeon) to see if there's anything on the same table (though surely we won't have sexual subtexts suggestions, extremely vulnerable "stoppp..." and disturbing frat-house camera).

20:22 / 22.10.07

Although I had read this one theory a long time ago that suddenly makes too much sense. Female characters get to be agents of normal and realistic vulnerable reactions for some to experience "it" in fiction, so either being a bridge for the male audiences to identify or relate themselves with that horror and dread (in a manner of "well, yeah, if I was a woman..."/ "yeah, in her situation, as a girl..."), or just being the usual brand of mysoginistic threats of violence against the female protagonit depending on what thresholds she trespasses (slashers' weird brand of poetic justice against those who've had sex, for instance).

I'm sure someone who understands the concept of anima better than I do could do a good reading on these comics.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:57 / 22.10.07

Daytripper, might it help to sharpen your analysis to have a read of the comic? I think Byrne stealing would be acceptable - the scene in question is a little past half-way through.

Ziparrow: Indeed, something about this makes me feel that Tigra will not be coming back from this in a cathartic beatdown, which does rather change things. I don't know if it's exactly realistic or normal, although there does seem to be certainly less of a desire to stylise pain or vulnerability - compare Tigra getting her nose broken and her family threatened by an intruder in her home with, say, Penance wearing a spikey suit. The other problem being that Bendis seems to use this kind of violence against women as a repetitive device - in fact, along with the powers-abuse of Deena Pilgrim, thinking about it, this scene eerily mimics another scene in Powers, where a female superhero is helplessly beaten to death by an invisible assailant.

00:25 / 23.10.07

I agree, I'll have to read it before commenting on what's in it any further, as online analyses seem to be suspect (as ever, unfortunately). Just stating that the defenses, in general, are worth disagreeing with, as they appear to be based on the same misinformation.

And if I byrnesteal one Avengers book, I might as well, the other. For an issue or two, anyway.

ONLY NICE THINGS

04:59 / 23.10.07

Speaking of the other, actually - what did you think of the killing of Lindy Reynolds? It's unfortunate scheduling, I think, that they came out at the same time...

05:22 / 23.10.07

Thought it was a bit pointless, unless she turns out to be a Skrull. She's been storywise dead before, too recently (same writer and everything), and it's not like she's been a major role at all.

And, yeah, I just finished a borrowed copy of the new New Avengers issue and it was more annoying and offensive than I'd thought, even without anyone being shot in the back. It was much faster than I had thought it would be. And, shit, she doesn't even get a line of real dialogue, or more than one swipe at him? And scream scream scream? It's nice that she did take one swing at him, though I wouldn't have read it that way, myself, if someone hadn't already pointed it out, but otherwise... no. She seems vulnerable enough in the opening robbery pages, that the secondary scene... you see Spidey that vulnerable in a similar scene? That 'Aaaiiieee!' at all? Hawkeye? Jarvis?

Those aren't heroic/stoic 'Aaah!'s or 'Aaargh!'s with a tough bear-it grimace, those are wide-eyed terror 'aaiiieee!' screams. With some hair-pulling, whisper in the ear vileness where virtually any other hero would have just thrown up a fist and popped the sucker in the face. Even shot. Superhuman strength and resilience person who's been shot once. In the leg. Realism to the wind, it's not what you'd see Luke Cage or Hawkeye do in that scene. Spidey, who may in fact have less superstrength than Tigra, in the opening of this series, continues to fight without screaming and stumbling, after a much more severe beating.

And I never actually bought the threat. Against a real superhero written as superhero, this guy would get his ass handed to him. Not in an X-can-never-beat-Y way but in the sense of credibility, of in-story potency and presentation. Tigra's whole point was to establish him as badass, and even that didn't ring true to me. It was over so quickly, so simply, it almost did the reverse, establishing the Hood as a chump who tries to impress even bigger chumps by beating down the easiest target instead of going after someone who could screw over their whole operation.

07:27 / 23.10.07

Look, man, the Hood also saw off Wolverine the issue prior. Although, so did Spider-Woman, two preceding.

07:57 / 23.10.07

Right, so I'll just avoid posting on this any more. Apparently I missed an issue (or just forgot the relevant points (last I recall, the Hood showed up the end of the issue with the oldschool Deathlok).

Still irritated me, but no need to run everybody over the coals and provide misinfo.

07:57 / 23.10.07

(xpost)
Well he was still fighting, being a tough mother and doing jokes, so... (only saw a few panels of their fight).

But I'm figuring Wolverine's pain was mostly scoring him Tough Guy points, no? I take it he either "took it like a man", was still on a superhero-type of brawl, or came back to a catarthic revenge, there was no weird screams, no weird videocamera subtexts, no weird scared-puppy-face vulnerabilities, weird dialogues and no weird overtextual body positions. It wasn't even Marsellus Wallace shooting the cop's crotch.

And Wolverine sort of works on that masochist basis of more and more pain, no? He kinda works on a premise that it somewhat glorifies him (even when self-inflicted), gives a via crucis' blood and sweat kind of thing. I seem to remember it was basically his vibe (those spikey things coming off him in the weapon x stuff, the claws hurting every time they come off, those Teixeira panels of him almost ripping his own eye off etc etc etc -- doing 'loses penis' Ennis-style must be a way to pander to those that hate the character while he likes him or is forced by editorial to put him into every issue).

But that could be somewhat a gambit that'll start to tick off fanboys, I imagine - "why his dirty hairy every time?".

08:09 / 23.10.07

Although I could take the point this guy just somewhat hates superheroes and is nasty to all of them (from what I've been reading, it seems he is nasty to a lot of female and male characters, so...).

Is he the guy that wrote spiderwoman getting her crotch kicked?

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:37 / 23.10.07

Elektra.

The Hood fought Wolverine to a draw and ran off (a) and did so by turning into a giant blue demon (b). And yes, at no point did he appear to be taken roughly from behind by same. Which is sort of a shame, as that is exactly what comics needs right now.

09:54 / 23.10.07

He did, however, get his cock shot off.

10:26 / 23.10.07

Yeah, but it'll grow back. It'll probably just spawn fanboys' "X character Rulz more!!1!" arguments with "he doesn't even have a cock anymore! It was shot off! Twice! Lolz!" and "but it grew back, bigger and stronger, and with claws and shit, so suck on that!".

Comics does need moments like that, Haus. And it would fall on the furry department as well (although it's not like man-wrestling by itself is completetly without any of that...).

Newsarama's mud: "F*ck Tigra, I's pay good money for a copy of Jigsaw's tape!! SHE BETRAYED CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE CAUSE!!!". Some of the "it's nothing" posts there just sort of confirms it for me, really -- while the "it's there, it's baaad!!!" posts just makes me want to give a second read, since they're all "think of the children" arguments.

Other recent one I haven't seen mentioned here was Big Barda. I can't really tell if it's anything there. But this big mama-fudging goddess of kicking cosmic ass and all it entails, found dead in the kitchen floor so her husband'll have motivation. That one seemed almost an intentional poke on post-WiR zeitgeist. I wouldn't stamp it "WiR" with any degree of certainty -- but this huge thing, this big moment happening off screen, a big Cosmic Warrior just shot/"shot" on the kitchen floor.
(I mean, really, an attempt in kitchen sink murder mystery while Big Barda in costume -- the visual and concept hitting so many conflicting notes it's just... Shouldn't it be on Orion's Belt or something? Or in the kitcken with normal clothes and characters not really cosmic and named Big Barda? At least in Green Lantern's you could almost see that the writer was excited for what it must have been a shock for him to see Se7en's ending).

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