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Illegal Immigration and borders

 
  

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The Falcon
23:41 / 04.08.06
While it's wandered around a few blocks, I think the proposed topic (questionable abstract and all & the more raised eyebrows at that the better imo - I believe it's been decided to leave as is?) is, and has always been, a Switchboard one.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:56 / 05.08.06
Personally, I'd like it in Switchboard, to be honest... though it could still do without having the word "illegals" in the abstract.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:21 / 05.08.06
OK - I'll move to move. Nobody actually managed to explain why the topic change was disagreed, so that might be an open issue later.
 
 
MintyFresh
21:37 / 18.09.06
I live in America, and in my area, illegal immigration is a big deal. While I do sympathize with those who are trying to find a better life, illegally entering a country is not the way to do it. But I suppose I can't blame them for taking a shortcut across the border, because just look what we give them once they get here! They get government financial aide and free medical care, and there is absolutely no chance of them being deported. Illegal immigrants from Mexico were protesting recently about the way the American government treats them, declaring that they have all the rights that Americans do, and deserve to be treated like citizens. Well, no they don't. They entered our country illegally, they don't have the rights our constitution gives citizens. Recently, an American border patrol officer was arrested for shooting and injuring a man as he attempted to cross the border with a van full of illegal drugs. The injured man has been brought to America(with amnesty)to testify against the border patrol for "assualting" him, because to do anything to punish illegals from entering our country, or to find and deport them, is considered politcally incorrect.
I don't have a problem with anyone trying to immigrate to America, so long as they do it legally. Go through the system, enter the workforce, contribute to society, become a citizen. Don't hop across the border and expect to have The American Dream handed to you.
(I'm really sorry if this has all been said before, but I felt the urge to rant a bit.)
 
 
Char Aina
22:31 / 18.09.06
could you do us all a favour(yourself included) and quell the ranting fire with a little linking?

start by backing up to do anything to punish illegals from entering our country, or to find and deport them, is considered politcally incorrect.

it doesnt sound at all like my undersanding, and i would like to hear how you arrived at it.

i have more questions, but i fear you may take them as attacks and so would prefer you to rephrase your post, so that i can engage with the evidence you have used to find you conclusions rather than the vague assertions above.
 
 
Char Aina
22:39 / 18.09.06
it also might be good if you read this thread, which as you admit, may have already covered the points you try to raise.
dude, your post doesnt engage with the preceediing discussion at all.

why not?
too much like hard work?
if you're too lazy to listen, how do we know you arent too lazy to think about the issues you raise? and why should anyone listen to you if you dont listen to them?
it isnt much fun talking to someone who ignores what you say, as i'm sure you can appreciate.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:42 / 18.09.06
You might also find by reading the thread that the problematic nature of using "illegal" as a noun has been raised, too.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:53 / 18.09.06
(I'm really sorry if this has all been said before)

It's all been said before. TPC, generally we recommend reading threads before posting to them on Barbelith. Everything you have said has been pretty comprehensibly discussed already, and so it might interest you and save us time if you read back over.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:53 / 19.09.06
Go through the system, enter the workforce, contribute to society, become a citizen. Don't hop across the border and expect to have The American Dream handed to you.

You do it. Go on. Then report back to us. Tell us how easy it was.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:06 / 19.09.06
Recently, an American border patrol officer was arrested for shooting and injuring a man as he attempted to cross the border with a van full of illegal drugs. The injured man has been brought to America(with amnesty)to testify against the border patrol for "assualting" him, because to do anything to punish illegals from entering our country, or to find and deport them, is considered politcally incorrect.

A bit more information on this would be appreciated please. In what situations is a border officer authorised to open fire on people believed to be entering the US illegally? Presumably not all of the time?
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:53 / 19.09.06
Border crossing reopened following shooting Updated 5/19/2006

or perhaps Uproar over U.S. Border Patrol shooting
 
 
MintyFresh
21:32 / 21.09.06
I'd like to apologize to anyone I've offended by anything I said above, and I'd like to apologize for spouting general accusations without backing up any of my opinions. It was not my intention to offend anyone or cause a problem. I have no excuse for ranting like that, and I'm very, very sorry.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:11 / 21.09.06
I'm sure we can all appreciate that, TPC. For your information, I've disagreed the deletion of your post, because the posts after it would not make a huge amount of sense without it, but please don't think of that as a punishment. If you want to come back to this thread after reading through it, please do.
 
 
HCE
10:01 / 23.09.06
I did a research paper on this subject a few months ago and cannot recommend the following too highly:

Simon, Julian L. The Economic Consequences of Immigration. Ann Arbor, University of Michigan Press, 1999.

It's a rather dry read but is loaded with detailed analyses of quantitative information from a range of sources.

"The evidence is clear and strong that they do not use welfare service, both because they are young, mature, and strong, and because they cannot use such services without fear of the law." (120).

Other good sources:

Nevins, Joseph. Operation Gatekeeper: The Rise and Fall of the ‘Illegal Alien’ and the Making of the U.S.-Mexico Boundary. NY, Routledge, 2002

He describes “the designation of Mexican as ‘white’ and thus eligible for citizenship, while California Indians – like other Indians throughout the United States – received the status of ‘nonwhite’[during the 1849 California State Constitutional Convention.]”(Nevins 327)

Stalker, Peter. Workers Without Frontiers: The Impact of Globalization on International Migration. Boulder, Lynne Rienner Publishers, 2000.

“In a world of winners and losers, the losers do not simply disappear, they seek somewhere else to go.” (107).

I was surprised to find that my research prompted me to take a position I would have thought of as well to the right. I concluded that a guest worker program would best address the needs of:

A) economic migrants for safe, fairly remunerative work,
B) the host country for a tax base to support an aging population
C) the home country for the return of workers with improved skills
D) the host country's unions and workers for the preservation of workplace and payscale standards

A guest worker program would make access to set-term work visas much easier, would require workers to pay some tax in both their home and host countries, and would provide economic incentives (or penalties) for overstaying the visa.
 
 
Dragon
01:44 / 05.10.06
Sorry I've been kind of scarce. I still will be for awhile. Just the same, I thought you might find this interesting.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
10:27 / 05.10.06
D) the host country's unions and workers for the preservation of workplace and payscale standards

Yeah, I'm not so sure about this. In Australia we have a new kind of visa, called the 'Skilled Temporary Work' visa. It's being used by a lot of corporations to bring people in 'legally', but the number of individual worker complaints is huge, and growing. Corporations are free to engage workers on contracts that involve them paying incredibly expensive fees for accommodation and living expenses to the company -- meaning that the workers end up with little, and are completely exploited. In a state like the US (and increasingly, Australia) 'free market' labour laws mean there is no basic wage, and thus employers are not obligated to pay even guest workers the accepted minimum wage. It's like that here, and I doubt very much that the US would be any different.

Or there's this article about Israel's temporary migrant visas from the late 90's to 2003, in which people are cited as saying they actually preferred to be working undocumented than on a guest labour visa. Being undocumented in that context means you have more freedom to decide where and how much you want to work, you don't have to agree to the accommodation an employer stipulates, and you're not contractually obliged to see out a long term of employment. Being undocumented offers flexibility, in other words -- as long as you're prepared to risk the possibility of arrest and deportation, any time and anywhere.
 
 
HCE
18:13 / 05.10.06
Interesting -- sounds like those programs use the documented status to formailze the exploitation of the workers rather than to protect them from it. Gah. Is it the principle that's bad? Is there a possibility of implementing the idea in a different way, one that would permit for some flexibility while reducing the risks?
 
 
HCE
18:15 / 05.10.06
Thanks for the interesting article, Dragon. I wish they'd been a little more specific though. They talk about higher and lower rates -- but higher/lower than what? Than their peers in the US? Than their peers in their countries of origin?
 
 
alas
21:12 / 03.01.07
This article appeared in last week's NY Times. Since it's short, and soon will not be available except for a fee, I thought I'd post it here in its entirety:

December 27, 2006
Our Founding Illegals

By WILLIAM HOGELAND

EVERY nation is a nation of immigrants. Go back far enough and you'll find us all, millions of potential lives, tucked in the DNA of our African mother, Lucy. But the immigrant experience in the United States is justly celebrated, and perhaps no aspect of that experience is more quintessentially American than our long heritage of illegal immigration.

You wouldn't know it from the immigration debate going on all year (the bipartisan immigration bill-in-progress, announced this week, is unlikely to mention it), but America's pioneer values developed in a distinctly illegal context. In 1763, George III drew a line on a map stretching from modern-day Maine to modern-day Georgia, along the crest of the Appalachians. He declared it illegal to claim or settle land west of the line, all of which he reserved for Native Americans.

George Washington, a young colonel in the Virginia militia, instructed his land-buying agents in the many ways of getting around the law. Although Washington was not alone in acquiring forbidden tracts, few were as energetic in the illegal acquisition of western land. And Washington was a model of decorum compared to Ethan Allen, a rowdy from Connecticut who settled with his brothers in a part of the Green Mountains known as the Hampshire Grants (later known as ''Vermont''). The province of New York held title to the land, but Allen asserted his own kind of claim: He threw New Yorkers out, Tony Soprano style, then offered to sell their lots to what he hoped would be a flood of fellow illegals from Connecticut.

Meanwhile, illegal pioneers began moving across the Alleghenies and into the upper Ohio Valley, violating the king's 1763 proclamation and a few more besides. (George would today be accused of softness on immigration; he kept shifting the line westward.) Immigrants from such déclassé spots as Germany and Ireland violated the laws and settled where they pleased. The upper Ohio was rife with illegal immigrants, ancestors of people who, in country clubs today, are implying a Mayflower ancestry.

Parallels to today's illegal immigration are striking. Then as now, it was potentially deadly to bring a family across the line. But once across, illegals had a good chance of avoiding arrest and settling in. Border patrols, in the forms of the British Army and provincial militias, were stretched thin. The 18th-century forest primeval, like a modern city, offered ample opportunities for getting lost. Complex economies thrived in the virgin backwoods, unfettered by legitimate property titles.

When conflicts developed between the first and second waves of illegals, some salient social ironies arose, too. By the early 1770's, George Washington had amassed vast tracts to which his titles were flatly invalid. The Revolution rectified that. With British law void, Washington emerged from the war with his titles legal by default. But he acquired another problem: low-class illegals were squatting on his newly authenticated, highly valuable property.

Washington harbored no fond feeling for breakers of laws that he too had recently flouted. ''It is hard upon me,'' he lamented without irony, ''to have property which has been fairly obtained disputed and withheld.'' He went to court to have the squatters evicted, complaining that they had ''not taken those necessary steps pointed out by the law.'' He was appealing to righteousness from atop a high but wobbly horse.

Descendants of the great immigration experiences of the 19th and 20th centuries visit the Ellis Island Immigration Museum to learn of the tribulations of ancestors who risked much to become Americans. Those of us whose ancestors risked everything as illegal immigrants, and in the process helped found a nation, owe our forebears a debt of gratitude, too. Without their daring disregard of immigration laws, we might not be here today.

William Hogeland is the author of ''The Whiskey Rebellion: George Washington, Alexander Hamilton and the Frontier Rebels Who Challenged America's Newfound Sovereignty.''
 
 
Pingle!Pop
11:38 / 05.01.07
In 1763, George III drew a line on a map stretching from modern-day Maine to modern-day Georgia, along the crest of the Appalachians. He declared it illegal to claim or settle land west of the line, all of which he reserved for Native Americans.

Erm... is there a reason why this wasn't a good thing (or at least why it wouldn't have been if it had actually been enforcable)? I know that the whole "American Dream" pioneer etc. etc. thing was built on "illegal" immigration, and tat George III wasn't the loveliest person in the world, but in that particular case, was the immigration in question not impossible to separate from the near-eradication of an entire race of people? Surely if making a case that immigration isn't something which will be horrendously destructive to the people already living in a particular place, it would make more sense not to pick the single most prominent example of where this was in fact the case?
 
 
alas
13:04 / 05.01.07
Surely if making a case that immigration isn't something which will be horrendously destructive to the people already living in a particular place, it would make more sense not to pick the single most prominent example of where this was in fact the case?

You make a good point, here. I read the article as slightly ironic. In the U.S., the anti-immigration crowd claims that it's just the "illegal" thing they're against, and in their view, the immigration of their (white) relatives was done legally. White immigration simply isn't framed as rooted in illegality, at all; it's just this brown immigration that's illegal.

His point is in the first paragraph: human beings migrate; borders can never be perfect or perfectly enforced. We move. We conflict. I don't think he's as focused on the "should" of it all, so much as the: here's how human beings seem to behave, and maybe we need to deal with that as the reality and manage it, instead of trying to stop it up.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
12:26 / 08.01.07
Ah - I think I'm used to the American media treating any "founding fathers" as one step down from Jesus, i.e. more or less infallible. So I kind of read the above as, "George Washington did it, so it could never be wrong!" But yes, it does seem to be at least a little more critical than this, pointing out his "wobbly-horse" hypocrisy... I'm still a little unsure that your reading isn't a little overly generous - things like, "[We] owe our forebears a debt of gratitude [for] their daring disregard of immigration laws," sit a bit uncomfortably in terms of ignoring what said forebears did to Native Americans - but it's certainly possible...
 
 
electric monk
15:27 / 23.02.07
I want to put this here:

Families Behind Bars: Jailing Children of Immigrants

I don't have anything intelligent to say about it besides urging everyone to read the article and for US 'Lithers to call or write their representatives. If you need me, I'll be in the Urgh! Fuck! thread, throwing furniture and screaming till I'm blue.
 
 
murphy
02:44 / 27.02.07
Admission: I've read just the last page of this thread, so if what I'm about to say has already been addressed, my apologies.

I have lived in upstate New York for most of my 30 years. I have heard about the issue of illegal immigrants coming from south of our border for the last 20 years.

It was only last April when I was at a Union training in New Hampshire that I heard about illegal immigration from the north. I met a man who was born in Quebec, illegally entered the U.S. when he was a young man, and lived here illegally for 8 years. He said he knew hundreds of native-born Canadians who did the same.

The furthest I've lived from the Canadian border was a 3 hours drive; the closest, a 30-minute drive. I've never ventured further south than Tennessee. Yet the only illegal immigration I had ever heard about concerned people from the south.

While I will grant you that there are likely more immigrants coming into the U.S. from the south than from the north (therefore garnering more attention), I do think my experience betrays, at some level, a racism that is inherent in how people view illegal immigration and/or how the media cover illegal immigration. I know there are other arguments, but bluntly, and boiled down to its core, at least in my reckoning, if you have the right skin tone, you can enter illegally, and not sweat being hassled.
 
  

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