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Illegal Immigration and borders

 
  

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*
03:41 / 26.07.06
Id's, one thing many people are saying about Ken Lay is that since he died before sentencing, they are upset that he didn't live to be punished.

I was upset to hear that the man had died. People die, and it sucks. He defrauded a lot of people out of money so he could get richer, and many of those people are suffering because of it, but he didn't murder anyone that I know of and I wouldn't wish him anything more than a just sentence. But the handful people I know of who were being assholes about Ken Lay shortly after his death are at least acknowledged to be being assholes. They don't get to fall back on "Well, it's the accepted term." This is one example of how racism is a structural problem, unlike, I don't know, anti-defrauding-rich-white-guy-ism. But that's neither here nor there, pointless threadrot, sorry.

Here's one for you: Many people crossing the border are indigenous people. How would it strike you if a force of alien people claimed the US and drew an arbitrary line between you and your local grocery store, proclaiming thusly: "You will not cross unless you fill out this paperwork in Martian, file with the appropriate Martian bureaucrats, learn to speak Martian to our standards of fluency, and play a Martian song of loyalty on the Martianophone. If you cross this border without taking these steps you are committing a crime under Martian law." Then the Martians which had claimed the land containing the grocery store called Earth people who crossed their line without first going through the appropriate dance steps "illegals," and treated them as dangerous criminals and as a menace to their Martianism. Are you not entitled to buy a gallon of milk, and maybe have your kid apply for a job stocking produce, because you don't have thirty years to figure out the arcane Martian bureaucracy?

If we're doing hyperbole we might as well go all the way, right?
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
07:22 / 26.07.06
In the case of immigration from Mexico I don't know what Texas or new Mexico's but California economy seems to do alright with this terrible strain on it. Though I notice that the governor's anti-immigration, bit odd for an Austrian.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
12:08 / 26.07.06
Dragon, I meant this stuff.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
15:14 / 26.07.06
Oh, and for more interesting information on how the current US administration have for years been planning to promote and further American economic global dominance (through various means), you might find the Project For The New American Century interesting reading -- Note, the names at the bottom of the page I just linked to.

Another interesting site you might want to Bookmark in respect of global economics and politics is The Club of Rome, although (to be honest) this site makes my head spin, so I wouldn't blame you if you'd rather not...
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
15:38 / 26.07.06
I've moved for the first link (above) to be moderated, but in case I screwed it up again, here's the URL to copy and paste:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

(Sorry for the triple post)
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
15:41 / 26.07.06
Give all of Baja plus the Peoples' Republic of Califronia (specially Los Angeles and 80% of San Francisco) back to Mexico. They can keep all of the illegals plus all the kooks. The rest of us will "Return to Normalcy." (Warren G. Harding's campaign slogan).
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
15:51 / 26.07.06
"kooks"?

DEDI, what - the - fuck - are - you - talking - about?

Are you supposed to be "joking" or just being a right wing prejudiced idiot?

Please clarify.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:07 / 26.07.06
I *think* he means the 'kooks,' ie hippies, on Venice Beach etc, PW.

The use of the term 'illegals' is a bit more troubling though.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
16:12 / 26.07.06
Yeah, I posed in haste and didn't mean to imply "kooks" was a racist term. Sorry.

I've also asked for the post to be moderated accordingly.

Still...
 
 
Jack Fear
16:19 / 26.07.06
DeDI, hush. There are punch and bars in the Fellowship Room—you and your little friends can play in there while the grown-ups are talking.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:34 / 26.07.06
Well, let's not write it off too quickly. California was part of Mexico until the middle of the 19th century, and the US behaved pretty badly, arguably, in helping it to secede and then accepting it as a state in 1850. Returning a wealthy, fertile and profitable state to Mexico might raise standards of living to the point where nobody would want to cross the border to one of the impoverished southern and midwestern states that would no longer be bailed out by subsidies from the public purse contributed by California. Then New England just has to join Canada and the rump of the US can be left to deny evolution in peace. There might be a bit of a problem with people seekign a better life away from the depressed post-agricultural dustbowl, mind.
 
 
grant
17:10 / 26.07.06
Erm, "all of Baja" is part of Mexico. Baja California ("Lower" California, for the Spanish-impaired) is the peninsula that dangles roughly south of San Diego/Tijuana on the map. That finger of land on the western side of the map of Mexico, the one that encloses the Gulf of California.

"Alta" California is the part Arnold Schwarzenegger's currently in charge of.
 
 
grant
17:28 / 26.07.06
And, as Haus points out, carries far more than its share of the US GDP.

"California has an enormously productive economy, which for a nation would be one of the ten largest in the world."

More on that here. ("California is responsible for 17% of the United States' gross domestic product (GDP). ")

And here! How immigration affects California's economy! (a pdf, from California's gov't its own self!)

The impact of immigration on the economy depends significantly on how the skills of immigrants fit the needs of the U.S. economy. From the public’s point of view, the question centers on whether immigrants “take jobs from existing residents” or whether they “take jobs that nobody else is available to fill.”

Despite substantial immigration and two major recessions during the past 15 years, major economic indicators for California were better in 2004 compared to the nation than they were in 1990.

Broad economic trends — The following economic trends have been in effect in California since 1990:

• Unemployment rate — California’s current unemployment rate is lower than it was in 1990. After having been nearly 3% higher than the nation’s unemployment rate in the early 1990s, it has now moved close to the national average.

• Poverty rate — California’s poverty rate is now close to the national average, after having been 3% higher than the nation’s rate in the early 1990s. The poverty rate declines as the immigrants’ length of residence in the U.S. increases.

• Average wage levels — California average wages have risen faster than the national average since 1990. They were 13% above the national average in 2004.

• Job growth — California’s job growth has outpaced the national average since 1994. Although California has experienced two downturns since 1990 (the aerospace-led downturn in the early 1990s and the Internet/tech-led downturn after 2000), immigration was not a factor in either downturn.

Immigrant occupations — Foreign-born workers are more concentrated in service, construction and production occupations than are native-born workers.
Foreign-born workers are underrepresented in management, professional and sales occupations.

The exception is foreign-born workers from Asia, who are more concentrated in management and professional occupations than are native-born workers. By contrast, immigrants from Latin America and unauthorized immigrants as a group are highly concentrated in service, construction and production-related occupations.

The occupational profile of second-generation residents is similar to that of native-born residents.


and

National Academy of Sciences studies on immigration and the 2005 Economic Report of the President conclude that existing studies have found “only a small adverse effect” or “little effect” on the wages of native-born residents.
These reports also conclude that immigration has net positive effects for the overall economy, although there may be individuals who suffer negative consequences.
 
 
Quantum
17:35 / 26.07.06
There might be a bit of a problem with people seeking a better life away from the depressed post-agricultural dustbowl, mind.
But they could emigrate... oh hang on, only to pro-immigration countries. Where might they go?
In the developed world, only a few countries have had pro-immigration policies for more than a century now. They are Germany, France, Switzerland and the so-called "new" countries "settled" by Europeans-countries such as Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United States. But it seems there's some anti-immigrant feeling in the US and you can't emigrate to your home country, that's just silly. Where might be best?
"...those countries which say openly that they welcome immigrants and back up this commitment with a sizeable array of laws and other measures to facilitate the long-term or permanent settlement of new arrivals. These are Australia, Canada and Sweden."
So these countries that accept immigration and actually promote it are, let's see, among the most successful in the world with the highest quality of life and low crime etc. expected in a place where you don't criminalise immigrants.

In fact, rich countries probably gain far more than they lose from immigration.
The first line of that article is good- "IMMIGRATION, it seems, hardens hearts and softens brains like few other issues."
It does seem that way, doesn't it?
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
18:25 / 26.07.06
For the record: DeDI, I'm sorry if I was curt with you in my previous post. I usually tend not approve of such spikiness, despite how trying circumstance might be, so earlier that was hypocritical behaviour on my part. Indeed, apologies all round.

It's just that your post is in Head Shop (i.e. a more serious discussion space), and there were no %'s or any other similar Barbelith notations used to imply sarcasm or humour. Therefore, as it stands, your comment is easily read as being offensive, ill-informed, and trite.

Can you tell that I'm really hoping you didn't mean what you typed? (sincerely)
 
 
*
20:04 / 26.07.06
Hmm. I'm living in the disputed territory of Alta California. I think I'd rather see it secede again and become its own nation with sensible immigration policies, but that's because I don't speak much Spanish and would be terribly embarassed not to be fluent in the language of my own nation (and it's my own damn fault, too; it's not like I never had the opportunity growing up in Florida). By DeDI's definition, I am probably a "kook"— a gay transsexual liberal with an undisciplined (read: not his own) approach to magic. I am annoyed with his terminology, naturally, but as Haus and grant point out, the central thrust of the idea is sound— the US would suffer, badly, but the world might be better off. The "Return to Normalcy" would see a serious problem with the US economy, but it would probably bounce back (he said optimistically) rather than fall into a serious decline, eventually ending the US stranglehold on the world markets. This idea is sounding better all the time. To whom should I address my letter?
 
 
Dragon
22:56 / 26.07.06
Quantum. These parts are interesting, too:
But the world, or rather its inhabitants, are imperfect, and completely unrestricted immigration would certainly lead to huge practical difficulties and probably intolerable racial or communal strains.
...
...it would be right to give preference to those who had made an orderly application and patiently waited for admission, rather than arriving unannounced by makeshift raft or listing coaster.
 
 
grant
23:17 / 26.07.06
By DeDI's definition, I am probably a "kook"

Technically, actually, in the context of Southern California at least, a "kook" is someone who can't surf pretending to be a surfer. Like a "hodad," only worse.
 
 
Dragon
02:08 / 27.07.06
Paranoid, per your eg link, I'd have to suggest that the author isn't seeing all the numbers. For example, he says Lebanon's poverty rate is 28% doesn't mention that Israel's poverty rate is 21%. Sure, the US may have given Lebanon $40 million but Paris II has been pitching in. Lebanon had 15 to 16 years of civil war. Syria had been in the country until the so-called "Cedar Revolution" ended Syria's occupation in 2005. There was also an economic downturn following Rafiq al-Hariri's assasination. Unemployment in both countries is about the same. Curiously, the work force is about the same, too, even though Israel's populiation is larger. It may be that Israel's military is not counted as part of the workforce. Also, there are an estimated million people in Lebanon's workforce who are foreign workers. That makes the two workforce figures about the same. Israel's public debt is 99% of income, whereas Lebanon's is 150% largely due its civil war and Syria's occupation.

Don't take this personally, but I don't think much of Chomsky. He is a smart guy and has contributed a lot, but the more I read what he has written, the less I think of his writing, especially in the polical arena.

As far as Iran goes, who knows? The United States always has contingency plans for every part of the world at any given time. Sometimes more information is required. I seriously doubt there will be an invation of Iran. There are concerns over Iran's nuclear program, but they are years away from success. But, more recently, with Iran being implicated in the current hostilities with in Israel and Lebanon (some missiles were from Iran), there is a definite need for more intel. Even so, I believe the US will be quite restrained as far as Iran goes, militarily speaking.

Would you have opposed the CIA's attempt to avoid the Sandanista's take-over of the Nicaraqua by organizing the Contras' attempt at socialization? I think this was during a time when the domino theory was in effect. Most likely the thinking was that we wanted to maintain some semblance of order with the population having more power, instead of allowing all the power to go to the top man.

America's will never use a hydrogen bomb. I don't foresee any event that would demand it. Countries that work to create such a weapon, do so for face and for leverage. Some think N Korea already has such a bomb; I disagree. A leader of such a country would demonstrate it at the first opportunity.

Proliferation? ?The threat and use of violence is stimulating nuclear proliferation along with jihadi terrorism." I completely disagree. Such terrorism and attempts at proliferation would proceed despite any action the United States would take. Why wouldn't they?

SDI: Why would we want anyone to inspect our missiles? Anyway, Russia and China weren't too worried about it. Reaction to the withdrawal by both Russia and the People's Republic of China was much milder than many had predicted, and followed months of discussion with both Russia and China aimed at convincing both that development of a National Missile Defense was not directed at them. When Reagan was presient, he even suggested that the Russians would be given access to the SDI technology. I don't see why that wouldn't be the case, now. This technology might even be given to some other countries.

The United States is better equipped to figure out what can be used against us and what countermoves we can take against such hypothetical weapons.

BTW, Cheney, Bush and company are not "making a hell of a lot of money out of the Middle East right now." I see no evidence that this is the case. Any money received by Cheney, for example is money he has already earned, not money he is earning from current operations by Halliburton.

Gotta go.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:21 / 27.07.06
This thread is about "Illegal Immigration and Borders". Please to stay ontopic, people.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
14:29 / 27.07.06

I think the horse has well and truly left the stable, if not migrated to the US by now, Haus, legally or otherwise. Your valiant attempt at preventing it from flight may well be fruitless. Just sayin'.
 
 
Char Aina
15:42 / 27.07.06
He is a smart guy and has contributed a lot, but the more I read what he has written, the less I think of his writing, especially in the polical arena.

could you direct me to what it was you were reading? i have read your linked wiki page, but would appreciate what it was he has written that has made you feel that way.
specific sections would be good, as some of his books are quite long.

oh, and uh...
America's will never use a hydrogen bomb.
are you missing an 'again'?
 
 
Quantum
18:33 / 27.07.06
Technically Little Boy was an atomic (fission) bomb, Hydrogen bombs are fusion based- link.

But that just means they are bigger nuclear bombs. Of course they'd drop them.
 
 
grant
21:38 / 27.07.06
On another, more relevant language note, the California pdf I linked to referred to "unauthorized" immigrants.

At any rate, it seems like when a border is opened between two economically disparate entities (Cuba/Florida, East Germany/West Germany), there's a relatively brief period of higher crime rates, but an economic improvement within 5 years. And if the California numbers are anything to go by, as long as education is maintained for what, the "recent immigrant sector" or whatever you want to call it, the economy continues to improve markedly, until by the next generation it's mostly peaches and cream.

Obviously, California doesn't have an open border, and there's something tricky around the "education" idea I'm not entirely sure about.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
23:00 / 27.07.06
Technically Little Boy was an atomic (fission) bomb, Hydrogen bombs are fusion based- link.

But that just means they are bigger nuclear bombs. Of course they'd drop them.


Quite; they've certainly threatened or alluded to the possibility of their use enough times.

I'd say we could be reasonably sure that noone will use a (real, not dirty) cobalt bomb; and that America at least will shy away from use of chemical weapons (that is, deliberately developed chemical weapons, as opposed to, say, the "opportunistic" use of deforestants and tracers) and - moi, naif? - biological weapons.

On the other hand, they can get away with killing people the old-fashioned way without too much bother, so why should they?

Forgive the digression.
 
 
Dragon
00:05 / 28.07.06
Grant, I was wondering how California's cost of living would factor into your numbers.
 
 
Dragon
00:13 / 28.07.06
But that just means they are bigger nuclear bombs. Of course they'd drop them.

Quantum, what scenario would you envision the US using such a weapon? It is indiscriminate. Use of such a weapon is not in our philosophy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:31 / 28.07.06
Let me try to make this easier for the hard of thinking. I will start to move to delete any further comments utterly off the thread of discussion of immigration and borders.
 
 
Char Aina
09:47 / 28.07.06
apologies for the threadrot.

i think the discussion should continue elsewhere, perhaps here?

feel free to delete my posts here if you see fit.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:13 / 28.07.06
I think if we draw a line here and get back to the topic under discussion, that'll be fine. Further discussion of the US nuclear posture I've started to funnel off here. The most recently-used Chomsky thread, which may be as a good a pplace as any to talk more about Chomsky's politics, is here. I've touched on Dragon's claims that the funding by the US of contra forces loyal to the Somoza dictatorship was an anti-totalitarian move in the Random Q&A thread in Conversation. If anyone would like to talk about one of the other tangents thrown out in the last page, feel free to start a new thread, or PM me to talk about where it should go.
 
 
grant
13:29 / 28.07.06
Grant, I was wondering how California's cost of living would factor into your numbers.

It's part of what constitutes a "poverty rate," so it's already there.... The poverty rate declines as the immigrants’ length of residence in the U.S. increases.

I'm curious, though, if the 1990s were a time of marked increase in immigration to California or something. I'm wondering why that report was made to begin with, and why there's a reference to the poverty rate being 3% higher than the national average through the 90s. Is that immigrant related? Seems strange, given that the 90s were the Internet Boom years, and Silicon Valley is one of the mainstays of CA's economy (and filled with/fueled by immigrants of the legal variety, especially from Asia).
 
 
Dragon
01:34 / 29.07.06
I believe that despite the economic boom, the cost of living (whether or not there is or was an increase in povery levels) may have increase more, especially in the housing market. At the same time, globalization was kicking in and jobs were beginning to go out of country.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
02:59 / 29.07.06
So, when you say cost of living, what you mean is, in effect, that commodity inflation was running ahead of wage increases?

Well, that's easy enough to demonstrate - grab some costs - the UK has a standard "basket" of goods - and some wage figures and compare them. The tricky part might be then relating this to immigration, however.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:23 / 04.08.06
Right. I've had an inquiry about whether it's possible to move this to the Switchboard (which it is), but no follow up on whether it was actuall a request. What do people think? There's a lot of interesting material here - would moving it give it a new lease of life?
 
 
Quantum
10:59 / 04.08.06
Does Switchboard have an open border policy? I wouldn't object to a move, but I think the summary phrasing might raise some eyebrows.
 
  

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