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Illegal Immigration and borders

 
  

Page: 123(4)5678

 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
14:09 / 18.07.06
Dragon: With the population of Muslims outpacing that of native citizens, coupled with a trend towards increased immigration in Europe, it appears that a shift in policy is very likley.

This statement seems to be taking as its base assumption that a Muslim cannot by definition be a native of Europe. Europe has within it several countries whose majority population is Muslim (Bosnia, Albania), while the EU is also considering an application for membership from Turkey.

Being a Muslim is also a relgious and/or cultural, not racial, attribute. One can be from a Muslim cultural background without choosing to practise the religious aspects of the faith ze might or might not have been brought up in (just as many Catholics, Anglicans, Jews and Hindus do, for example) and there are likewise practising Muslims from what might, for want of a better term, be called white European (and American and Australian for that matter) cultures.

There are also many Muslims (practising or otherwise) from whatever ethnic and/or national background one might care to specify who have been born in Europe (outside those majority-Muslim countries already mentioned) over two or more generations. Are they natives yet or not?
 
 
alas
14:48 / 18.07.06
There have been a couple of excellent articles in the "you must register & buy archived articles" NY Times in the last few months that directly address several of the points being discussed in this thread. (As usual, I am happy to PM copies of these articles to anyone who PMs me.)

The first is "The Terrible, Horrible, Urgent National Disaster That Immigration Isn't" by Lawrence Downes, an editorial board member of the NYTimes, from June 6, 2006. Here's the outline of his argument:

Part 1: What's Wrong With 'Getting Tough on Immigration'
I. Immigration, Oversimplified
Here he gives an intelligent overview of the anti-immigration argument, which has here been put forth most simplistically and without a shred of nuance by Dragon.

"In this view, the problem is not going to be solved by repairing a complex system of immigration laws and regulations, by tinkering with the economic machinery to find a better fit between labor demand and supply, or by being more diligent about enforcing existing rules about workplaces and hiring. And it certainly won't be solved by being creative or more welcoming and humane toward immigrants in a way that rewards their hard work and desire to participate in the system more fully.

It will be solved by keeping people out, and kicking people out. Do that, the restrictionists insist, and you will help resolve a host of other problems — the invasion of neighborhoods and street corners by Latino men; the upsurge of gangs and drugs; urban congestion and suburban sprawl; human trafficking; the demise of white European culture and values; the strain on jails, hospitals and schools, and the threat to the very stability of the United States.

It's no wonder some people compare immigrant workers to locusts, bacteria or an occupying army. If you could find a 250-year-old American to discuss this, he or she would tell you how familiar this all sounds. Identical arguments were once made about Chinese laborers, Japanese-Americans, Roman Catholics, the Irish, Italians, and the original unloved — though fully documented — outsiders, African-Americans. Let's not even talk about American Indians."


II. The Disturbing Role Played by Fear
Traces the xenophobic to blatant racist connections of a few key anti-immigration activists in the US.

III. An Array of Too-Costly Solutions
"Take the restrictionists' favorite solution: deporting 'em all. It is a straw man in the debate, because only the most rabid talk-show callers would be willing to pay that price — $200 billion or more, at least double the Department of Homeland Security budget. And that cost does not even count the psychic toll it would take on our nation to rip immigrants out of homes and workplaces and schools and eject them. As unlikely as we would be to pay this cost once, it is even less likely we would be willing to pay it again and again, as we would no doubt have to as new immigrants arrived to replace the ones who were sent home.

Then there is the hard-liners' other favorite solution — fortifying the border, which any restrictionist will tell you is the most urgent priority of immigration reform. Billions have already been lavished at the southern border — California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas — in walls, patrols and technology. Since 1986, the border patrol budget has been raised 10 times, and the number of border patrol agents has gone up eightfold. The House of Representatives, in its disturbingly get-tough immigration bill, wants to erect a 700-mile wall, which will fatten a few powerful contractors' bottom lines by untold millions, and President Bush has already sent in the National Guard.

These price tags will only seem higher when measured against results."


IV. Local Fear and Loathing
V. Sending In the Police

Part 2: The Harder but Better Way
I. A 796-Page Attempt to Do Better
II. How Badly We Need Them
"As a conduit for workers into this country, the existing immigration system is greatly out of balance with demand. The legal path for an unskilled worker to enter the United States is through one of about 5,000 visas issued for such workers each year, which means it is no path at all. The United States economy has adjusted, of course, by hiring temporary workers and illegal workers by the millions. The invisible hand doesn't ask for ID for the roughly 500,000 people who enter illegally each year.

Immigrants — legal and illegal — fill a vital niche in the American economy. They make up 12 percent of the United States population but 14 percent of its workers, according to the Congressional Budget Office. From 1994 to 2004, the agency said in a report last December, the number of foreign-born workers grew to 21 million from 13 million, a rise that accounted for more than half of the growth of the U.S. labor force. According to the American Immigration Lawyers Association, immigrants hold 40 percent of farming, fishing and forestry jobs in the United States, 33 percent of jobs in building and grounds maintenance, 22 percent of food preparation jobs and 22 percent of construction jobs. Tearing the approximately one third of those workers who are illegal away from their livelihoods and families would be ruinous to the economy, particularly the agricultural and tourism industries in states like California.

Throw away the arguments that immigrants are tax leeches. On the contrary. They pay more in taxes than they consume in services. They all pay sales taxes. Illegal immigrants who use fake Social Security numbers to get hired pay income and payroll taxes — but don't collect Social Security and are ineligible for Medicaid. The amount of unclaimed Social Security tax has more than doubled since the 1980's, to roughly $189 billion. Because immigrants tend to be younger and healthier than native born workers, they use government services more sparingly. A comprehensive study of immigration and its economic effects — "The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration," by James Smith and Barry Edmonston for the National Research Council in 1997 — summed up its conclusions this way: Because immigrants on average have less education than the native-born, they earn less and pay lower taxes. But immigrants also consume far fewer services. As a result: the average immigrant pays nearly $1,800 more in taxes than he or she costs in benefits, even when you factor in the cost of public education for his or her children.

The report emphasizes that the proper way to understand these expenditures is as an investment in America's future. In a country that absorbs about one million newcomers per year, each yearly cohort of immigrants pays $80 billion more in taxes over the course of a lifetime than it consumes in services. In other words, there is no economic crisis being caused by immigration — but there could be one if it came to a halt."


III. Acknowledging the Costs
"There is one conundrum of illegal immigration that is very real: the cost it imposes on people who would compete for jobs with undocumented low-skilled immigrants. It stands to reason — how could a job market absorb so many new people and not see wages fall? An often-cited study by two Harvard economists, George J. Borjas and Lawrence F. Katz, found that from 1980 to 2000, a wave of illegal immigration from Mexico had reduced the wages of high school dropouts in the United States by 8.2 percent.

But that study gave only a partial picture. It failed to account for the economic growth that immigrants cause — the many jobs that cheap immigrant labor creates, and the gaping demographic niche it fills. As Eduardo Porter pointed out in The Times in April, "Over the last quarter-century, the number of people without any college education, including high school dropouts, has fallen sharply. This has reduced the pool of workers who are most vulnerable to competition from illegal immigrants."

This is no consolation to the janitor in Los Angeles who has seen his job disappear, or the by-the-book contractor who can't compete with the fly-by-night operation that hires — and underpays and exploits — illegal day laborers by the truckload. Any serious attempt at immigration reform has to grapple with the fact that many Americans — young black men, among others — who have been overlooked and shunned in the job market for generations will likely continue to be overlooked. That is especially true as the economy hums along through the energy of immigrants, many of them illegal. If immigration decreases costs and increases the national prosperity, we need to find a way to make sure that those gains are shared with those on the low rungs of the economic ladder."


The above point is addressed in detail in the article from the New York Times Magazine of about two weeks ago, "The Immigration Equation". The article explores the Borjas/Katz argument in detail as well as the arguments against it by other economists, particularly that of Canadian economist David Card. I highly recommend it for its complex economic analysis of the costs/benefits of immigration and how to measure these costs/benefits, particularly to elene.

There are several responses to the powerful argument that while those who are well off benefit from the cheap goods/services provided by immigration, native-born poor people are hurt by having to compete for jobs with immigrants. There's evidence, first, that immigrants create jobs just by being available to do the work: more people hire domestic and gardening help than would otherwise do so, and farm labor that would otherwise be mechanized can be done by hand more inexpensively. Second, there's an argument that the presence of non-native speakers makes native skill sets more valuable at least for some workers--construction foremen are likely to be native English speakers who are local to the neighborhood with all the knowledge that implies.

This problem is a real one, and I don't think these answers completely address the question, but it does seem helpful to get this kind of thinking on the subject.

IV. Anger on the Ground
V. The Cost Abroad
VI. Uncertain Possibilities

"It's not only because the costs of security are so high, or because the contributions that legal and illegal immigrants make to this country are so positive. Those who have been working as hard as the hard-liners have been to close this country off to people who came here to seek work and a future have a radically astringent vision of what this country should be. To militarize the border, to turn illegal immigrants into felons, means trying to reverse the polarity on the American magnet, to repel the people who have struggled, dreamed and died to get here.

It means turning this singular country into just another industrial power with a declining birthrate and a self-defeating antagonism to the foreign born. It means defining down what America stands for, no matter what the cost to the American economy, its traditions and values and moral standing.

It's dangerous. It's not rational. But the argument on the restrictionist side isn't about being rational. It's about being afraid."


My stance remains that immigration is a net good; the biggest problems in the US in terms of the economy are not caused by poor people, particularly by politically powerless immigrants, but by the wealthiest people who create policies that are exacerbating the wealth divide between the rich and the poor. I believe that anti-immigration arguments are at bottom a fearful form of racism/xenophobia that has been deliberately inflamed as a divide-&-conquer strategy, because it benefits major multinational corporations to have a monopoly on the ability to move between nations while workers are essentially trapped, the better to be exploited.

I believe that people and families of almost all levels are, however, stressed by the requirement that they move to where they jobs are, and that that stress alone should make us more focused on creating more equitable distribution of jobs and resources between and amongst nations. Building walls and making life hell for poor workers is not the way towards that, though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:00 / 18.07.06
Are they natives yet or not?

Very good question. Do you know what Dragon's beliefs about the future of Europe remind me of? Catholics in the United States. At the time of the War of Independence, a tiny proportion of the states' population was Roman Catholic; maybe one in a hundred. Generally, they didn't like Catholics at all - the Quebec Act, while not officially a cause of war, was certainly a contributor.

Fast forward to the mid-19th century, and you have many more Catholics, thanks to - you guessed it - immigration. In particular, the Irish. This was a cause of tremendous concern; after all, the Catholics could not really be loyal to America, as they were beholden to the Pope, a treacherous foreign dictator. They had weird and un-American customs. Their savage orthodoxy denied the advances made by mankind since the Dark Ages. Obviously, they posed the most tremendous threat to the Union since the British. Cue the formation of the American Party, which campaigned to exclude Catholics from public office and to extend the naturalisation period for new occupants from 5 to 21 or 25 years. In 1855 Levi Boone was elected Mayor of Chicago and banned Catholics from office. 1856 Willard Filmore took 21% of the presidential popular vote (Buchanan won with 45%) for the American Party.

And then... well, the Catholics turned out to be quite keen to be Americans, rather than servants of the Pope. Given a chance to work and make a life for themselves, they built the railroads, settled down, raised families. The American party fell apart over slavery. The Civil War distracted everyone from the menace of Popery. A little over 100 years later, the Democrat party's Catholic candidate, John F Kennedy, became the President of the United States of America.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:49 / 18.07.06
I just wanted to pick up on one small point from alas post.

There's evidence, first, that immigrants create jobs just by being available to do the work: more people hire domestic and gardening help than would otherwise do so, and farm labor that would otherwise be mechanized can be done by hand more inexpensively. - alas

I'm rather wary of this argument, for reasons I've touched upon above. The thrust of this point is that immigration creates jobs because in a very unequal society, the immigrants' labour is so cheap. But I am very much opposed to this economic setup of extreme winners and their servants, and I'm concerned that accepting this as a model for the intergration of immigrants means that one has to abandon the ideal of a fair society, even as an aspiration. I'll admit that, perhaps, thinking of national borders as natural ways to divide people doesn't really make sense - the immigrants we are talking about are already poor, just not in *my* country, but I think I'd still maintain that there is some value to more localised egalitarianism - its worth providing education for all inside a country, even in the face of global poverty.

My other concern is related to the first, in that I also worry that the model of very cheap labour almost certainly works against social infrastructure - education, health, pensions and welfare provided by the state. I really think that if xenophobia weren't an issue, open borders would be an obvious neo-liberal policy (as pointed out above) and I don't mean this in a good way. It seems an obvious practical response, in the face of large scale immigration, to restrict those kind of social services and ultimately make them entirely private. This isn't such a problem with controlled immigration, and perhaps would never become a problem...but I'm not sure, and the cheap labour model isn't one that suggests this issue would be dealt with equitably.
 
 
alas
17:12 / 18.07.06
Those are good points, Lurid, and I don't see your view as scapegoating immigrants for a variety of current social ills, which is what I'm primarily opposed to. (But I have to admit I must have either missed or forgotten your comment upthread, so thanks for repeating it). I am also wary of anything that smacks too much of neoliberalism in economics, and so I'm wary of these arguments. And the Times, to me, pretty readily adapts its world view to the traditional free market one in which the invisible hand of the economy is just out there doing good and we need to let it alone. I do believe that free-market advocates are often quite hypocritical when it comes to immigration.

But I'll confess because my grandpa who I loved dearly was an immigrant, and I love the immigrants who are in my life now, and I feel such energy and joy in them, I suppose it's on this issue that I'm a litle more vulnerable to this kind of argument.

However, my last comment was, if a little weak, meant to indicate that I feel some serious resistance to this argument due to the cost of immigration on individuals and families, and, I should add, the environment. Desperate people are very hard on their environment because they have to be, and a society where emigrating for economic incentives is a norm or expectation makes it harder to take care of the place where you are from. (And often it's the healthiest and best workers who are called away to work, so those left behind, and the land itself, are deprived of their labor and skills.)

This is also the cover story for this month's issue of Crisis magazine, the magazine of the NAACP. The president of NCAAP, Bruce S. Gordon, says "It is suggested by some that the employment conditions affecting Blacks are substantially damaged by the presence of more Hispanics in this country. And I would suggest that we not fall into that trap. We have dealt with and faced employment disparities in this country for years. Those disparities, whether they are unemployment rates or household income disparities have preceded the current discussion around immigration."

That's the main thing I'm concerned about--is the right's framing the issue in such a way that poor people are tempted to fight one another rather than those who have the real power in this country and around the world.

Here's what US Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Tex), says, in answer to how the US should address the questions concerning immigration: "You acknowledge the equality of work. You ensure that there is a fair minimum wage that all workers are paid so that no employer can undermine the value of a worker by suggesting that they will hire someone who is undocumented they can pay less. And you must confront the issue of unemployment, which is raging in America, especially in certain African American communities. You invest in education and job training programs that work. And you wage major job preservation and job creation efforts. Fix the employment and wage opportunity issues and I believe you can fix the immigration problem."
 
 
grant
17:50 / 18.07.06
alas -- Any chance of a precis of Card's argument for those of us too strapped to buy NYT magazine articles?

Lurid -- I think you're definitely onto something there. The thing that model reminds me of is the South African set-up I remember from visiting relatives in the 80s -- where every middle-class family had full time domestic help, because labor was so cheap. (And I do mean *every* -- I'm pretty sure the then-tiny black middle class had help, too.)

And it wasn't an immigration thing until the apartheid architects made it one, by erecting borders where there hadn't been borders before, both on the city level (with the townships) and the national level (with the homelands). I'm suspecting the erection and enforcement of borders was useful precisely because it maintained the economic status quo. South Africa seems like the kind of government that would actually put something like that in writing -- I'll have a look around in a bit and see.

----

Interesting point about Catholics in America. There are still remnants of the "But they're loyal to the POPE, you SEE??" ideology around, but mostly confined to Chick tracts and the people who take them seriously. I think there's a wrinkle in there around the foundation of Maryland (it was a Catholic colony as Pennsylvania was a Quaker colony), but one that probably supports the overall idea of assimiliation despite difference.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:06 / 18.07.06
Grant - indeed, but actually, despite being a Catholic foundation, I think that outside Baltimore (now the centre of American Catholicism, as you no doubt know) the actual population was still majority Protestant as soon as the need for labour meant the Catholic founders had to bring new people in - that was why the Toleration Act of 1649 was passed, to prevent the Protestants taking over and persecuting the Catholics.
 
 
grant
18:14 / 18.07.06
Wikipedia on Bantustans.
 
 
Dragon
18:47 / 18.07.06
Django-Durango, I don't have a quarrel with Muslims in general. I suppose my fear is connected to the more radical/millitaristic factions. Even some of the more moderate Muslims, at least in some areas, seem to be more likely swayed by the extremists than the other way around.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:56 / 18.07.06
Just like those dirty Catholics, obviously.
 
 
alas
18:59 / 18.07.06
Here's a couple of snippets from the "Immigration Equation" article that make Card's argument fairly clear:

"Easily the most influential of Borjas's critics is David Card, a Canadian who teaches at Berkeley. He has said repeatedly that, from an economic standpoint, immigration is no big deal and that a lot of the opposition to it is most likely social or cultural. ''If Mexicans were taller and whiter, it would probably be a lot easier to deal with,'' he says pointedly.

Economists in Card's camp tend to frame the issue as a puzzle -- a great economic mystery because of its very success. The puzzle is this: how is the U.S. able to absorb its immigrants so easily?

, , ,

The academic study of immigration's economic effects earned little attention before the subject started to get political traction in the 1980's. Then, in 1990, Borjas, who was on the faculty at the University of California at Santa Barbara, published a book, ''Friends or Strangers,'' which was mildly critical of immigration's effects.

That same year, David Card realized that a test tube did exist. Card decided to study the 1980 Mariel boat lift, in which 125,000 Cubans were suddenly permitted to emigrate. They arrived in South Florida with virtually no advance notice, and approximately half remained in the Miami area, joining an already-sizable Cuban community and swelling the city's labor force by 7 percent.

To Card, this produced a ''natural experiment,'' one in which cause and effect were clearly delineated. Nothing about conditions in the Miami labor market had induced the Marielitos to emigrate; the Cubans simply left when they could and settled in the city that was closest and most familiar. So Card compared the aftershocks in Miami with the labor markets in four cities -- Tampa, Atlanta, Houston and Los Angeles -- that hadn't suddenly been injected with immigrants.

That the Marielitos, a small fraction of whom were career criminals, caused an upsurge in crime, as well as a more generalized anxiety among natives, is indisputable. It was also commonly assumed that the Marielitos were taking jobs from blacks.

But Card documented that blacks, and also other workers, in Miami actually did better than in the control cities. In 1981, the year after the boat lift, wages for Miami blacks were fractionally higher than in 1979; in the control cities, wages for blacks were down. The only negative was that unemployment rose among Cubans (a group that now included the Marielitos).

Unemployment in all of the cities rose the following year, as the country entered a recession. But by 1985, the last year of Card's study, black unemployment in Miami had retreated to below its level of 1979, while in the control cities it remained much higher. Even among Miami's Cubans, unemployment returned to pre-Mariel levels, confirming what seemed visible to the naked eye: the Marielitos were working. Card concluded, ''The Mariel influx appears to have had virtually no effect on the wages or unemployment rates of less-skilled workers.''

Although Card offered some hypotheses, he couldn't fully explain his results. The city's absorption of a 7 percent influx, he wrote, was ''remarkably rapid'' and -- even if he did not quite say it -- an utter surprise. Card's Mariel study hit the cloistered world of labor economists like a thunderbolt. All of 13 pages, it was an aesthetic as well as an academic masterpiece that prompted Card's peers to look for other ''natural'' immigration experiments. Soon after, Jennifer Hunt, an Australian-born Ph.D. candidate at Harvard, published a study on the effects of the return migration of ethnic French from Algeria to France in 1962, the year of Algerian independence. Similar in spirit though slightly more negative than the Mariel study, Hunt found that the French retour had a very mild upward effect on unemployment and no significant effect on wages.

Rachel Friedberg, an economist at Brown, added an interesting twist to the approach. Rather than compare the effect of immigration across cities, she compared it across various occupations. Friedberg's curiosity had been piqued in childhood; born in Israel, she moved to the U.S. as an infant and grew up amid refugee grandparents who were a constant reminder of the immigrant experience.

She focused on an another natural experiment -- the exodus of 600,000 Russian Jews to Israel, which increased the population by 14 percent in the early 1990's. She wanted to see if Israelis who worked in occupations in which the Russians were heavily represented had lost ground relative to other Israelis. And in fact, they had. But that didn't settle the issue. What if, Friedberg wondered, the Russians had entered less-attractive fields precisely because, as immigrants, they were at the bottom of the pecking order and hadn't been able to find better work? And in fact, she concluded that the Russians hadn't caused wage growth to slacken; they had merely gravitated to positions that were less attractive. Indeed, Friedberg's conclusion was counterintuitive: the Russians had, if anything, improved wages of native Israelis. She hypothesized that the immigrants competed more with one another than with natives. The Russians became garage mechanics; Israelis ran the garages. "
 
 
Dragon
19:00 / 18.07.06
alas, Those are excellent articles. My only quibble would be that border states are the ones seeing hospitals closed. Disparities in government aid to these states need to be addressed.

I fully agree we need immigration, but I do think we need structure for it, a structure which President Bush has been pushing. I sincerely hope the Congress and Senate will come up with a sane solution. And I hope it will be one that will be fair to other immigrants who've been waiting a number of years go get in legally, while those from the south have been running across the border.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:05 / 18.07.06
My only quibble would be that border states are the ones seeing hospitals closed.

Dragon, if that is genuinely your only quibble then I think you just disagreed with almost everything you have said so far. Could you expand on that, and while you're at it explain exactly what experience informs your opinion that:

Even some of the more moderate Muslims, at least in some areas, seem to be more likely swayed by the extremists than the other way around.

For example, have you ever spoken to a Muslim?
 
 
Dragon
19:09 / 18.07.06
Grand and Alas, I think once immigrants become bonafide legal residents as the president wants -- via the guest worker program -- they will be paid more, because it won't be 'under the table'. Even with the lower wages as it now stands, I'm sure they are better off than they were in Mexico. I've read stories about how some send money back to Mexico so they can build their own businesses. These will probably be returning to Mexico.
 
 
Dragon
19:17 / 18.07.06
Haus, For all practical purposes, we now have an open border. I'm looking for structure, which may be found in Bush's guest worker program and others. I also believe it is prudent to take a look at each person to see if he is potential threat to society. If he has killed people in his home country, he is likely to do it, in the USA.

I've spoken to Muslims, though we've not discussed our philosophies of life or our religious beliefs (or lack thereof in my case). I recognize they are not all the same. If you have spoken to a muslim, I doubt you would see the whole picture from that conversation, would you? I wouldn't.

Why wouldn't it follow that those who, say, are followers of Wahhabism would be less likely to be a benefit to society?
 
 
grant
19:18 / 18.07.06
I was wondering if Mariel would make its way in here. It's a big social thing in the exile community here -- are you pre- or post-? And there's a view that says Castro was experimenting with the boatlift as a way to use immigration as a weapon -- he emptied the prisons and sent them to Florida (my dad was one of the reporters covering the docks during the boatlift, and talks about prostitutes coming off the boats and propositioning soldiers on the docs within minutes).

People were really freaked out about it at the time. But as a weapon, though, it failed utterly, as Card's numbers show.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:22 / 18.07.06
OK, Dragon. Without using the Internet, tell me three important elements of what you are calling Wahabbism.
 
 
Dragon
19:27 / 18.07.06
Why shouldn't I use the Internet? Isn't it good enough that is what bin Laden believes? or that it is a fundamentalist sect?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:30 / 18.07.06
Ok - so, you would say that it is a dangerous sect, and that one should not associate with it, because it is dedicated to the destruction of the United States, and therefore that it would be foolish to allow Wahabbists to put themselves in positions where they might be able to hurt Americans or damage American interests, then?
 
 
Dragon
19:33 / 18.07.06
In word, yes.
 
 
grant
19:35 / 18.07.06
For all practical purposes, we now have an open border. I'm looking for structure, which may be found in Bush's guest worker program and others.

I read things the opposite way -- Bush's plan is moving towards opening our borders, which are now not exactly closed, but pretty controlled. Or "controlled," as in subject to a lot of laws.
 
 
Dragon
19:40 / 18.07.06
I disagree that the borders are "pretty controlled" -- I'd say they would be better described as out of control. At least with structure, we'll know who is who.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:45 / 18.07.06
In word, yes.

Gosh. Somebody had better tell President Bush to stop shaking hands with the King of Saudi Arabia, hadn't they? And the Emir of Qatar.

I think Safig bin Laden might be a Wahabbi as well, you know. Thank God Former President Bush survived that breakfast meeting he was having with him in the Ritz-Carlton hotel on September 11, 2001. Who knows what that crazy fundamentalist could have done?
 
 
Dragon
20:41 / 18.07.06
If Wahhabism is an intolerant form of Islam, do you think should it be trusted? Or, do you think the pendulum will surely swing the other way? I imagine Saudi Arabia and Qatar find us useful, at least in the short term.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
20:46 / 18.07.06
A bit like Bush & Co. found Saddam Hussein useful for a while? Doesn't all this smell of double standards to you? (sincere, not snarky question)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:50 / 18.07.06
Well, I might not want to hang out with them, but it seems the Bush family does.

You know, Guido Fawkes was a Catholic. They're all terrorists.

Seriously, Dragon, do you really not know anything about Wahabbism except that Osama bin Laden is called a Wahabbist? And you have no interest in learning anything else? Where does one go with that?
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:55 / 18.07.06
I don't see your view as scapegoating immigrants for a variety of current social ills, which is what I'm primarily opposed to. - alas

Totally. I am an immigrant (within the EU which isn't a big deal, tbh, and involves an open border) who is a child of immigrants (also within europe, but that *was* a big deal at the time). My comments reflect the concern that some immigrants feel at the prospect of being excluded from the social programs that are enjoyed by "genuine" residents. As such, I'm not sure the US or Israel are particularly good testing grounds for the sorts of things I'm talking about. The US, because of the striking stagnation that has characterised lowest 10 per cent of wages over a long period - I'm precisely worried that the trends in the US economy are the consequences of large scale immigration. Israel, and the russian immigrants, are particular in many, many, respects...but lets not get bogged down in a discussion of the conflict with the Palestinians and the dynamic invloved in the subjugation and displacement of a people.

That's the main thing I'm concerned about--is the right's framing the issue in such a way that poor people are tempted to fight one another rather than those who have the real power in this country and around the world.

Agreed. But I think that a pro-immigration (or open borders) stance needs to have a clear way of dealing with some of the issues I've raised, or the risk is precisely that the project becomes part of the right's arsenal.

The thing that model reminds me of is the South African set-up I remember from visiting relatives in the 80s -- where every middle-class family had full time domestic help, because labor was so cheap. - grant

I know what you mean, since I had family in SA too - I never visited them though. Immigration should mean more than letting someone be a rich person's servant - an argument I heard a lot was that the servants who were paid a pittance were really very lucky...in a sense they were, but in a totally unjust system.
 
 
The Falcon
20:56 / 18.07.06
Even some of the more moderate Muslims, at least in some areas, seem to be more likely swayed by the extremists than the other way around.

Do they, dragon? Into doing what, precisely?

I ask because surely FOX news or the like would keep you up-to-date on these 'extremist' factions, and the no-doubt terrible things they've done.

In short: how do you know this - are there any useful indications? How are these indications, should they be provided, indicative of extremism?

Because all we've got from you thus far is one book and a lot of fluffy, insubstantiated hearsay. Quite apart from the ethical implications, which I do really think you should have a long look at, this is pretty sub-par Head Shop posting.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:58 / 18.07.06
A slightly more considered response: you describe Wahabbism as an intolerant form of Islam, but you don't seem to have a very good handle on what you think it is intolerant of. Women's rights? Possibly, but if you are anything like the President then I don't actually think you mind very much about that until perhaps you are looking for a reason to invade a country. The infidel entering the holy places? Clearly not: US soldiers were based in the holy places with the blessing of the Saudi royal family for years. Ultimately, all you are managing is (x) is bad, I am told that (x) belonged to religious group (y), therefore all members of religious group (y) must be bad.

Essentially, you are pulling adjectives in to fill the gap in your knowledge, and like all vaccuums this one is turning out to be abhorrent.
 
 
The Falcon
21:03 / 18.07.06
The thing that model reminds me of is the South African set-up I remember from visiting relatives in the 80s -- where every middle-class family had full time domestic help, because labor was so cheap. - grant

I know what you mean, since I had family in SA too - I never visited them though. Immigration should mean more than letting someone be a rich person's servant - an argument I heard a lot was that the servants who were paid a pittance were really very lucky...in a sense they were, but in a totally unjust system. - Lurid

Conversely, I was born in Botswana and lived there for five years, until the mid-1980s, where my parents were effectively immigrant workers (teaching/various) and employed a local maid/carer during that time. Without wanting to go on a justification spree, the rationale there was (is?) that it was better to employ someone, if you could afford to do so. Also enormously helpful with a baby or two, doubtless.
 
 
Dragon
21:06 / 18.07.06
A bit like Bush & Co. found Saddam Hussein useful for a while? Doesn't all this smell of double standards to you? (sincere, not snarky question)

Yes, that was one of those "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of things, during the Cold War days. Everybody does it, and you never know what will happen down the road when circumstances are different.
 
 
grant
21:16 / 18.07.06
an argument I heard a lot was that the servants who were paid a pittance were really very lucky...in a sense they were, but in a totally unjust system.

"They're lining up to get in from other countries! Lining up!!" was one I heard a lot from the South Africans. Which may well have been true, actually, but that gets into comparitive economics and exchange rates which kind of make my head go wobbly. And doesn't change that, yeah, it was a system based on creating cheap labor to exploit it.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
21:28 / 18.07.06
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Hmmm...I take your point, but I was hinting at the possibility that the US (and the UK and every other country, for that matter) are not the noble, freedom loving parties you may think they are. Indeed,if you look at history from as many sides as possible, you will probably see factors such as immigration and international insecurity are not factors one can blame on a specific set of people or a single religion. Do you know what I mean?

e.g. Do you see the link between global economic disparity, immigration, and the luxuries you see in your local store? Do you see the link between cheep gas in your car, the oil industry, the continual attacks on Islamic states and the rise in so called Islamic Terrorism? Are you proud of what your country is doing in your name?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:37 / 18.07.06
Everybody does it

Actually, not even all Americans do it. Congress objected strenuously when Reagan took Iraq off the list of known sponsors of terrorism in 1982, and when the Reagan administration started to funnel arms to Iraq through other Arab nations, it did so in secret to avoid condemnation. That's quite funny. What's really funny is of course that it was also using Israel - Israel, of all people - to sell arms to Iran, before getting bored of the middleman and selling arms to Iran directly. So, actually, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and surprisingly my enemy is also my friend. So the enemy of my friend is my friend. And the friend of my friend is my friend. Everybody's friends. The Cold War must have been like Haight-Ashbury in '68.
 
 
Dragon
21:49 / 18.07.06
An example of Wahhibism in action:
Saudi backed Deobandi Mullahs in Pakistan's North West Frontier Province have passed a bill which forces the population to live under the barbaric laws of Wahabism.

It is a philosophy stuck in the 7th century.
 
  

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