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The Villain Workshop

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17:51 / 11.03.06

Ugh... I'm Spidey'd-out. S'like asking for Batvillains at this point. When you all solve the welterweght NYC baddie problem, how about fixing Psycho Pirate?

For such a player in major storylines, he doesn't get much play, does he? Always mincing about the Big Bad... Is he still that Native American dude, Highwaters or something?

18:08 / 11.03.06

Is he even a bad guy? More like a tool. Anytime there's a crisis event someone scoops him up and says "Do this or die!" and he's like, "teehee, giggle giggle, i'm loony, yes sir!". He's like a loony ultimate nullifier or something, more a weapon than a character.

18:46 / 11.03.06

Point.

I guess I'll play.

Spider-Man. Spider-Man. I guess we'd need a villain with just as weird a gimmick, who parades around in bright colors and strikes fear in the hearts of New Yorkers with loads and loads of absurdity. Someone who steals from banks and stuff, right? No death, no "espionage", just wacky criminal behavior.

How about "Flyboy"? Mutant with flight abilities and sixteen different senses of vision. Some extra strength or whatever, but manages to escape Spidey's webslingin' with an acid touch. He'd be interested in self-gain, or getting medicine for his secret grandma and child support for his secret kids. Yeah, he'd be a sympathetic character, and that's why Spidey'd let him go all the time. Constant thorn, cause he recognizes himself in "Flyboy", but the villain never listens or learns.

18:48 / 11.03.06

Re-imagine Apocalypse.

18:51 / 11.03.06

Ultimatize? How much continuity do we get to play with?

19:41 / 11.03.06

I don't wanta reimagine Big A. Sublime beats all other claims to darwinesque rationale.

20:55 / 11.03.06

I reread an old X-Factor annual with the High Evolutionary and Apocalypse that represented the big A quite well - essentially, he really is just fucking with humans to see who toughens up, on a millenial scale. He predates the concept of byzantine by 5000 years, and ideally has no interest in "ruling the world", he just wants to be responsible for making man mean enough to challenge the gods. No fixin' needed there.

Spidey villains? Leave 'em as is. They change often enough as it is (female Dock Ock? what?) to put poor Parker in perspective as an easygoing everyman surrounded by a crazy mad-science world. Okay, except for Venom, but I'm outta ideas there. The symbiote should bond with Aunt may for a year. That'd learn Spidey but good.

Wolverine villains are tough in the same vein Punisher villains are: they're all dead, or will be soon. With the exception of Sabretooth, who should NEVER be a good guy while Wolvie's around. Unless he's just being a friendly cat to get closer to his prey. Failing Sabretooth, the only real unbeatable villain Wolvie should have is the government. ANY government, and SHIELD.

Love the ideas for a WW villain, Fritz and Cassandra.

Martian Manhunter needs a planetary-scale archvillain (Despero, or something from Saturn a la Jemm) contrasted with his detective persona, where his villains can be the most vile, base humans imaginable (think the current Punisher series for the type of reprehensible scum John Jones would have to deal with).

22:17 / 11.03.06

OK, let's see...

Doing a villain for Cap is really hard, because attacking him is so...un-American. So you really only have two choices.

One: An American who opposes Cap on ideological grounds. We had that with John Walker, although he was a bit over-the-top.

Two: Someone from a foreign culture who isn't opposed to the US per se, but is loyal to a different idea. For example... a woman codenamed Europa, empowered to act by the EU, to act on _it's_ ideals.

The Hulk... the Hulk shouldn't fight Godzilla... he should BE Godzilla. A primal, unstoppable force who isn't so much defeated as withstood. Maybe we could create a Marvel U Jet Jaguar.

Spidey... Given that he's such a bright, dynamic, active character, I think perhaps the best foe for him might be someone solemn and severe. A manipulator who works behind the scenes, not out in front in a flashy costume. Best bet? A new Mysterio, sans bubble-head.

And I already DID Poccy. =_

22:53 / 11.03.06

God bless. Mysterio needs a major overhaul. Has Ultimate Spidey touched him yet?

23:52 / 11.03.06

Technically, no, although someone in his costume (possibly Bruce Campbell) appeared in the "Hollywood" arc. Rumor has Bendis using him soon.

I rather liked this approach although I'd lose the cape. Imagine a guy in a 3-piece suit with that head design.

00:01 / 12.03.06

A good description for Spider-man is of a guardian spider-spirit battling against modern day spirits and more primal totems. So, you have technological/modern/western spirits like Kingpin (money), Mysterio (sfx, media), Shocker (electricity) along with other animal loa like Scorpion, Kraven, Rhino, Doctor Octopus, The Lizard and so on.

Spidey, becomes an urban shaman bringing order back to the city when it's systems get outta whack.

Howabout: Junkyard Dog (a leftover from the old neogenic nightmare saga, a mangy hybrid super-dog. Sympathetic thug who turns to Spidey's side at the end)

Magpie (a super-thief, think a female Fantomex)

Chameleon becomes an Amazo-like meta-mutant who can steal super-people's powers and appearences.

00:02 / 12.03.06

Infact, Magpie could be Flyboy's Black Cat.

13:16 / 13.03.06

I'm sketchy about giving Diana a Lex Luthorlike diaboloical archenemy. Diana should have a human woman who's friggin better than her at everything. Like an Angelina Jolie who refuses to acknowledge Diana's contributions, someone who think superheroics are problematic and causing serious trouble for the world. Someone who discredits her, and is in no position to be fundamentally touched; the woman's not "wrong".

This is super like the whole Superman/Batman relationship, only they're enemies.

I always thought WW should be fighting an evil scientist. Someone who dismisses divinity and magick completely out of hand, but at the same time is a bit infatuated with her and hates himself for it. I'm thinking a cross between Dr. Doom and Lex Luthor, or Randall Dowling from Planetary.

13:19 / 13.03.06

The Blob could be a good metaphor for America's obesity crisis.

13:46 / 13.03.06

Next Challenge...

Viable enemies (arch, recurring, and encountered) for Jake Jordan, the Manhattan Guardian, should he get an ongoing series.

14:03 / 13.03.06

the spin doctor!

(just an eevil fearmongering bullshitter type.)

great thread gang.

15:18 / 13.03.06

Shock Jock, the living incarnation of talk radio. Not so much interested in the truth, as in getting more popular. The antithesis of the old-school journalism Jake represents.

16:07 / 13.03.06

Isn't one of Darkseids minions essentially a combination of both those ideas? I'm thinking of the one who featured in Legends.

There are at least two more characters with decent rogues galleries. There's the flash with the...ee...Rogues who are basically all one gimmick wonders but huge fun nevertheless. Then there's Judge Dredd. There's Judge Death (a potentially world destroying mystical menace) Mean Machine (a low I.Q. fighting machine), Chopper (who just wants to be free but that outs him into conflict with Joe), Orlock (agent provocatuer for a foreign state), Otto Sump (dangerous nuisance), Oola Blint (Shipman style serial killer), P.J.Maybe (sociopathic psychopath), and more besides.

Plenty of variation always helps. Hmmmm. Not really added much to the thread have I? Sorry.

18:05 / 13.03.06

Glorious Godfrey? Wasn't his schtick that he was like McCarthy?

18:11 / 13.03.06

Wiki said he only had like 3 appearances before starring in Crisis Legends. Here's some of what they say.
Assuming the identity of G. Gordon Godfrey, he starts a hate-campaign towards the superheroes that proves to be very effective, riling the public, ultimately leading to a presidential decision to outlaw any superheroic action.
Perhaps a better villian would be the Creeper, who is also daytime tv show host Jack Ryder.

18:12 / 13.03.06

Dark Side's "Shock Jock is Gordon Godfrey" or some name like that.

And Mark Grundwald did an extensive storyline with Capt. American touring the U.S. on a motorcycle. He even had a sort of "bucky corps" in the form of pre-internet hackers that ran a sort of emergency hotline. People could call Cap for help.

Was thinking of a sort of Taoist Imortal for face off against Wolverine. Someone older than him who's achiveved a sort of enlightenment, as good or a better fighter and how's made good use of a century plus long life. His motivation would be a desire to "civilize" Wolverine/Logan/James. With an ego big enough to look down upon his recent achievements, this immortal would tend to blame the past 20,30 years of misfortune Wolverine has suffered upon his refusal to become this immortal's desciple.

18:16 / 13.03.06

And Mark Grundwald did an extensive storyline with Capt. American touring the U.S. on a motorcycle. He even had a sort of "bucky corps" in the form of pre-internet hackers that ran a sort of emergency hotline. People could call Cap for help.
The Cap hotline! Brubaker used the Cap hotline in a recent story, Iron Man was like "Whoa, I haven't heard that thing ring in years.". Brubaker is also using Crossbones and seems to have been a fan of Gruenwald, which makes me very happy.

21:03 / 13.03.06

Yeah, if I ever got the chance to do my Cap revamp, the Hotlinewould be a big part of it. Except now it's a website with hundreds of contributors, and an admin who winnows through the chaff for stuff Steve would be interested in.

Up until recently, I would have codenamed said admin "Bucky"

22:10 / 13.03.06

This is a great thread. I'm gonna get back to it tomorrow but meantime I'd love some (but not all) of you guys to have a think about things like narrative and storytelling.

This shit ain't all about logic or expediency or coolness. The best baddies fit into well crafted storylines and are built from there.

Disclaimer: drunk Boboss.

22:14 / 13.03.06

Congratulations.

22:39 / 13.03.06

I agree, the best villians (& heores) stem from the story itself. Darth Vader anyone?

seems as though most of the posts can be read like story pitches.

22:43 / 13.03.06

I've written the occasional story online (and one or two minor epics). But that was a decade ago... these days I tend to write only for personal consumption.

23:10 / 13.03.06

Alright, per Boboss's suggestion, a modification on the latest challenge. Extrapolate the story arc from the hypothetical Manhattan Guardian. What do the characters overcome/achieve? What villains arise from that struggle?

00:17 / 14.03.06

Jake's career seems to be focused on the search for truth (as opposed to justice). He looks for the story behind the crimes, not just the crimes himself.

Hence, the kinds of villains I'd try for would be those who have something to hide, whether it be because they operate via deception, or because they harbor dark secrets.

For example, I could see him being sent to protect a great philanthropist, only to discover that the person is really a criminal incognito (Hunter Rose?)

23:00 / 15.03.06

Actually, and I realize that saying this is sort of a violation of the spirit of this thread, but the best villain for Jake Jordan might well be Lex Luthor.

Especially since the Guardian is everything Superman isn't: disadvantaged, struggling, finite, mortal, urban.

And also especially since Lex's corp might be linked to the owners of the Guardian paper.

00:09 / 16.03.06

That said, I think he as a character worked really well with something new and bizarre every issue.

Hmm. Now I'm thinking of something between Hexx, the Living Corporation and Deadman. Or a colony-mind thing, like Matrox the Multiple Man, only shapeshifty, too.

Make it inhuman & not intelligent (Mimic, or the terrifying short story that the movie was based on about the man in the upstairs apartment who turns out to be a giant beetle who *looks* like a man), and you'd have something fun. It moves into apartment buildings and takes over. It owns businesses. It doesn't eat people, but it *changes* them -- send spores into their brains, subtly changing behavior at first, then, in some cases, taking over altogether.

Call it "Colony" maybe?

00:13 / 16.03.06

Make it nocturnal -- the possessed people sleepwalk to second jobs they don't know they have, conduct lives they don't know they're living. Play off all the fear around Ambien (you've read about that, haven't you?) Call it "Nightshift."

00:22 / 16.03.06

Oh, and of course several of the late-stage possessed would be freaky-assed villains in their own right. An accountant who robs every ATM in Metropolis in one night using a tunneling machine he doesn't know he built. A receptionist who can walk through walls, stealing all the silver out of upscale eateries (and the patrons' fillings).

The infection causes strange physical transformations, desire for wealth, and a marked increase in mechanical/electronic/engineering aptitude. So a semi-conscious combination of Ambien and Toxoplasma parasites (see Laboratory "Schizophrenia" thread for more on that bug).

01:22 / 16.03.06

Sounds a bit like Kilg%re.

11:40 / 16.03.06

Kilg%re does sound like some fun -- but smarter than what I had in mind, and definitely shinier.

Hmm -- do Kilg%re and Oracle have a relationship? That might be another interesting story arc. Metaphors about internet stalkery & entrapment would easily abound.

Who invented him?

----

By the way, there was a fun Batman/Swamp Thing crossover based on a human variant of the same kind of parasitic fungus that's mentioned in one of the Toxoplasma articles -- the one that takes over the host and fills them with an urge to climb. People in Gotham start getting infected, climbing up buildings, get "rescued" by Batman, but *poof* disintegrate into white fluff in his arms. Very creepy. Then he gets infected, ST has to cure him by, you know, going into the Green and convincing the fungus not to do what it's doing. I just remember a panel with a white thread sneaking out of Batman's nostril. Brr.

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