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The Villain Workshop

 
  

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Hieronymus
03:52 / 10.03.06
Let's face it. With the exception of Batman or Spider-man or Dick Tracy, most heroes have the wonkiest stable of villains to oppose them. I find characters like Wonder Woman and Aquaman completely wasted by antagonists that are either cheesy or just plain dumb. Villains are where the fun is.

So... just for kicks, roll up your sleeves and share your ideas. If you could create a viable threat to some underappreciated comics character or improve on an already existing one, or one wholly seperate from any other mythos, or hell just to improve their LOOKS.... what would it be? What would it look like?

Personally... I have always wanted to pit Aquaman against a kind of Dagon-like sea serpent named Leviathan... that slumbers at the very bottom of the deep and with its nightmarish dreams, commands the Fomorians of legend to wipe out Atlantis. Or give Wonder Woman a triple goddess villain like the Weird Sisters.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
05:17 / 10.03.06
Aquaman as horror comic? I don't think they've done that yet. Sounds neat to me.
 
 
Sax
06:33 / 10.03.06
I'd like to retcon Paste Pot Pete into an adolescent boy who was struck by lightning whilst vigorously masturbating, turning him into a diabolical jizz-spewing demon. Then he could sit around at the Legion of Super-Baddies HQ and The Wizard and Morbius would crack jokes like: "Hey, Pete, did you ever come across Daredevil when you were in New York..?" then dissolve into tears of laughter.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
06:36 / 10.03.06
Sax has been reading rejected Garth Ennis proposals.
 
 
Sax
07:14 / 10.03.06
Actually, Jack, that's one of my rejected proposals to the short-lived Epic line.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
07:40 / 10.03.06
It's just that Ennis really did have a jizz puking cock demon in Hellblazer.
 
 
Sax
07:49 / 10.03.06
He pinched it off me.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:47 / 10.03.06
Garth Ennis is going to Hell... and it'll feel like home for him
 
 
Mario
12:04 / 10.03.06
Well, in my opinion, there are really only a few kinds of villains that really work.

1. The hopelessly insane, who do evil because they feel like it. The Joker, Green Goblin, etc. There isn't really much you can do to them, design wise, expect make them creepier looking.

2. The "I know better" crowd. They aren't evil in their own minds, because they see a problem with society, and truly believe they can do a better job fixing it. And the scary thing is, in some ways they are right. See Doom, Ra's al Ghul, and (arguably) Darkseid.

3. Conquerors. Not so much evil as amoral, either because they subscribe to a more primitive "might makes right" mentality, or because of the whole "unemotional machine" deal. There are a lot of these, and the most fun is in setting them against each other.

So here's an example of each, with a patented Mario Spin[TM]

1. Bullseye. The guy is pretty nucking futz by now. But the costume/ forhead tattoo makes him look silly. So I'd tweak him a bit. Ditch all the outfits. He's a remarkably ordinary-looking guy out of costume, someone you could see on the street without a second glance. But in his head, he sees everyone as a target. He visualizes angles, weapons of opportunity, and how they'll look when their eyes roll up in their head.

True, he could easily kill you with a simple thrown object, but he wants the challenge. And, if the money is right, or you annoy him too much, or simply if he feels like it... he'll accept the challenge.

2. Darkseid. Or even Dark Side. Lose the silly hat and skirt outfit. His new look in MM is OK, but the pimp imagery has to go as well. It's been my opinion that Darkseid is mostly about Control, and the subsumption of free will. But if he uses mind control, or torture to achieve it, then there's always a chance someone will fight free.

But not if people submit WILLINGLY. I see a new movement rising up... call it the Omega Society. A suitably charitable organization that will feed you, clothe you, give you a roof over your head, and pay for all your health care needs. Omega will take complete care of you. And all you have to do is make a few concessions.

Well, to start, anyway. Society has become more dangerous than the chairman originally thought, so he asks you to give up a little more. Nothing too drastic, of course...

Yet.

By the time the cycle finishes, those at his tender mercies will willingly accept any of his wishes... including the sacrifice of their very lives, for the good of the community. And all without him striking a single blow... because they TRUST him.

3. Apocalypse. Mister Survival of the Fittest. The ultimate self-made man. So how come he looks like a doofus with twin mohawks (or whatever those things on his head are) and blue lipstick?

I'd recast him as the ultimate in mutant evolution, both physical and paranormal. He should be as fit as Captain America (tho not as Aryan... we can keep the Egyptian heritage), and as smart as Reed Richards. And his powers should allow him to adapt to any attack, at least temporarily. (I'm reminded of Shane Gooseman from the old Galaxy Rangers show).

He doesn't see other people as enemies (unless they attack him directly), but as potential allies. He tests them, and if they are strong enough, he offers them a place at his side. If not... they are cattle.

When he has gathered enough warriors (mutant or mutate, so long as they are strong) to his side, they will ride out... and the horsemen of Apocalypse will cleanse the Earth of those unworthy of her bounty.

Appearance-wise, I'm thinking of someone who dresses in fairly primitive-looking armor (but with technology integrated). A muscular behemoth, but still agile, rather like Killmonger during the Priest Black Panther era. He should look like he could break you in half if you displease him... and probably will.

That's it for now. I can expand on these ideas, if you like.
 
 
Aertho
12:33 / 10.03.06
You just described 1. psychotic BEIGE, 2. ORANGE, and 3. RED vMeme rationales.

Personally, I think the Mutant Liberation Front might be cool if they got their act together. In a pre-M-Day world, they'd have been a political movement with an radically violent branch that couldn't be tracked or tied down.
 
 
Mario
15:31 / 10.03.06
Not so sure about beige... Beige is all about simple needs and survival. Psychopaths kill not for survival, but for pleasure. The others are more or less accurate, tho.

Wouldn't Darkseid be more Blue, tho?
 
 
Aertho
15:38 / 10.03.06
yeah, I was wrong about that... i suppose for Bullseye, like youo suggest, it may be more of an existential thing... like most of Joker's enemies, save Poison Ivy - who has an actual oppositional ideology
 
 
Mario
15:39 / 10.03.06
Looking at the colors... isn't Darkseid more Blue, with himself as the higher authority?
 
 
Aertho
15:41 / 10.03.06
When I do Klarion, you'll see the comparisons... Darkseid's a gameplayer
 
 
Aertho
15:45 / 10.03.06
But the scenario you describe is flat blue, so you're right. D'oh!
 
 
Aertho
16:15 / 10.03.06
I think Diana could use some better enemies.

Dr. Psycho hates women? So he takes on the most powerful one on Earth? He's telepathic, I'm not sure why he's not the scariest fucker out there. Cheetah's been greedy and powerhungry, but never as much as been necessary to really give her trouble. Circe just hates her after the whole Hecate business dwindled. Jimenez tired giving her a suitable reason for such vehemence, but that never felt strong.

Darkseid is a good villain, but I'd like more rip-roaring mythologicals causing havoc in all sorts of places. Like Devastation, Medusa, etc... What happens when folk literature goes bad? And Clayface was an interesting foe for her... What does she have that people want? Or want to destroy?

I mean, what did Xena fight?
 
 
Mario
16:57 / 10.03.06
Xena primarily fought random warlords (Red vMeme), monsters (Beige), and Ares (also Red, in essence).
 
 
Aertho
17:07 / 10.03.06
Yeah... rather elementary "villains", I'm sure...

I am intrigued by the possibilities of a Dark Side Movement. Which is why I can see Black Adam's peace through force policies coming back to bite DCU's first ambassador. Diana's villain posse could be a bit more sophisitcated and convoluted... like industrialists and international arms dealers, strict fundamentalist states, and the constant threat of cults emerging and empowering old gods. She could have her hands full, but they keep her shiny and primary colored.
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:09 / 10.03.06
I could see Wonder Woman as the bridge between the myths of old and their desire to make an impact in a modern world. Rather than all out enemies it could be interesting to see more "rivals" who are empowered by alternate Mythologies. I remember her having a bit of a fling with a Hindu empowered RAMA.

Along those lines I could see a whole "Warrior's journey" playing out as the "gods" of the Americas decide to challenge her choice to bring a Mediterranean mythology across the Atlantic Ocean. If she wants a base of operations in the U.S. she'll have to earn a place as their champion as well.

Force her to not be allowed to set foot on American soil until she has gain such a status. This of course would create potental scandels in the public eye was WW is seen only floating a couple of inches above the ground. Something that foes like Dr. Psycho and perhaps some fundamentalist political types would see as either a weakness or intolerable arrogance. Wonder Woman would need her own version of a Lex Luthor, something Rucka flirted with.

From That point there's certain potential to explore the mythological impact of centuries of colonization. Gods and mythologies that brought over form Africa might have an interest in challenging the roots of her personal quest. Some of the more blood thirsty mythologies of South America might step up as well. Perhaps seeing Cheetah as a failure, a more aggressive replacement may well be pulled from Aztec blood cults.

From there gear up to the great old gods of Lovecraft. Wonder Woman could become a sort of gate-keeper seeking to protect humanity form the influences of these various god-forms even her own Divine patrons. At the same time she'd be seeking to cultivate, by example, a capacity for personal divinity/empowerment in every person she seeks to teach. This mission would of course place her in direct opposition with those who have a vested interest in keeping "power" to themselves.
 
 
Mario
17:24 / 10.03.06
Diana's villain posse could be a bit more sophisitcated and convoluted... like industrialists and international arms dealers, strict fundamentalist states, and the constant threat of cults emerging and empowering old gods. She could have her hands full, but they keep her shiny and primary colored.

The biggest problem with that approach is it could easily get political... DC prefers to play it safe.

I do like the idea of Wonder Woman playing ambassador for the gods of myth, as opposed to the Amazons. Someone who walks between two worlds... that of the mortal realm, and that of the gods.

This leads to some basic ideas about her villains. Firstly, the realms of mythology are hardly harmonious. The gods she represents have their own rivals and nemeses, and it's certainly plausible for said foes to have representatives of their own, equally comfortable with the modern world.

For example, since Ares is usually cast as a villain in Greek Myths, what if he (and a few other gods, perhaps from different pantheons) empowered another woman to be his representative? Not a rampaging force of destruction like Deva, or a monster like Medusa, but an intelligent, savvy warrior who can attack Diana on the ideological, as well as physical level.

For example, while Diana teaches how to touch the divine, this new villain (Medea? Atalanta?) could promote blind obedience and submission to the gods.
 
 
Aertho
17:24 / 10.03.06
Yeah! That's more like it!

I mean, obviously, she needs to lose the stars and stripes, and get into an outfit that suits her. I did this a while ago, during the cool costumes thread. But the point is: she's bringing an element of old magic into a relatively new system.

She should be fighting variations of Christian Devils and such that are empowered by contemporary cultures. Like Spawn and Urizen and Chthulhu and Old Testament Wraths of God. Like versus The Spectre or something. I really do like the American Gods angle... What Would Gaiman Do?

What bothers me is that I know Diana needs to be more like Xena, and fight badguys and get sweaty and pissed, ...but I also want her to be more like Promethea, and inspire people instead of just saving or protecting them. How does one generate enemies that are guarded against through inspiration? I wish Alex Thoth was here. He'd know what to do!

Who was that lady who was moving and shaking things in the background during the Medusa run, anyway? Is that the Lex Luthor you mentioned?
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:29 / 10.03.06
Heh,
Similtanious posts, similar content. While we're discussing Wonder Woman. I'm all for the return of an eagle emblem ( aprefect totem animal for her) and let's flip those stars over to get her back in touch with her pagan roots.
 
 
Aertho
17:42 / 10.03.06
Threadrot

I like the double W! I'm not sure why so many people adore the old eagle... I mean, it is kind of nostalgic and makes sense for the whole Greek thing, but Diana ought to have some contemporary elements. I'd leave the eagle on her shield, and as the entirety of her armor.

/Threadrot

So we've got a wargod response agent- meant to actively prosetylize the Greek pantheon, territorial Native American deities that are pissed off at colonization and pick on the latest newcomer to their shores, Cheetah's pantheon of ancient African dieties who want revenge as well as more blood sacrifice, international arms dealers and corporate entities that profit from oppression and warfare, numerous mythological monsters that cross over into the "mortal realm"... what else?
 
 
Mario
17:48 / 10.03.06
They aren't gonna touch her threads much (although she does have an eagle-thing going on the cover of her relaunch book, see here ).

The biggest problem with villains is maintaining their threat, because after they've been defeated a dozen times, the expectation of risk lessens. That's what's happened to Darkseid, and Apocalypse, and a bunch of others.
 
 
Mario
17:55 / 10.03.06
I read a Wizard article, 8 years ago, where Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross designed a villain for Samaritan. While there were a lot of side issues, one of the interesting concepts they mentioned is that an arch-nemesis (as opposed to a flavor of the month foe) often acts as the opposite of the hero in some fashion.

For example... if a hero is flamboyant, the villain could be solemn and quiet. If a hero wears bright primary colors, the villain either wears secondary colors (green & purple, mostly) or dark muted shades. And so forth.

Taking this into account, how would we define WW's opposite?
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:56 / 10.03.06
Love that Wonder Woman design Chad, Still hate the head dress though. I'd flip that star and give it a bit of a spartan nose bridge potection. Or pull it higher on her head and use it simply to keep hair out of her eyes.

Along the lines of an imported american mythology I'd look to a sort of Anansi powered trickster/rival. Not quite an all out foe but someone perhaps more radical in approach with an anger fueled by a history of slavery. Make them distorted mirrors, with Anansi using magic spider-webs and having similar manicals around her wrists. Black iron with a few links of broken chain.

Play Diana's brave compassion against Nancy's (get it? A-Nancy) smoldering rage. Radical Feminist themes verses Bourgeoise Feminism?

On the WW; I've enjoyed the recent fusions in the design.

I'd also bring J'onn J'onnz as a suporting character perhaps love interest. Just for the Play of his Male Martian alien-ness to counterpoint her Female Earthy-ness.

I suspect Cheetah's of South American origins.

I'd like to also see someone like Killer-Croc refashioned to represent the lizard brain and an underlying reptilian mythology. Perhaps Dave Ike's Reptile conspiracy could be mined here as well.

Let's also have Dark Side assign Granny Goodness to a long term breaking of Wonder Woman. Having her stand between an OLD-GODS/NEW-GODS/GREATOLD-GODS hate triangle could be great. Couple that with her mission to empower individuals to worship divinity with-in themselves rather than outside forces could bring her in conflict with Gnostic foes.

Place a 2012 timeline in there as well. She'd have a sort of deadline to get enough of humanity up to speed before a cosmic deadline/alignment.

Then have her play midwife to a handful of earth born dieties. A technology arctype. A commerse/capitolist archtype. Have a whole future mythology waiting to be born and that Hate-triangle on the verge of becoming a sort of cosmic square.
 
 
Aertho
17:58 / 10.03.06
Yah, and I still think it sucks. The bathing suit needs to go away and die.

So, you want to discuss the viability of recurring villainy? Where begin? X-verse? Ultron? WW's problematic... Lex Luthor? John A Dreams?
 
 
Jack Fear
18:00 / 10.03.06
Whoever she is, she should wear a burqua.
 
 
Aertho
18:04 / 10.03.06
Taking this into account, how would we define WW's opposite?

Weak, atheist, racist/fascist, me-centric, destructive, given to rage, dark demure clothing...
 
 
Aertho
18:05 / 10.03.06
Wonder Woman's opposite = an angry, angry Dust
 
 
Mario
18:07 / 10.03.06
The viability question is really independent of the design. The only way to make a villain work in the long term is to let them win once in a while... not earth-shattering angst-causing victories, but minor ones, so the battle between hero and villain doesn't look one-sided.

Perfect example, from Superman: TAS: Apokalips Now.

Superman has broken free of his restraints. The Gods of New Genesis have taken earth under their protection. darkseid has been defeated. But, before he leaves, he teaches Superman a lesson by annihilating an ally. Darkseid was defeated, but still goes out as a threat.

Contrast that with his last appearance in the Superbooks, where Superman basically schools him like a punk, and then bodyslams him into the Source Wall. Darkseid no longer appears a viable danger.
 
 
Mario
18:10 / 10.03.06
Weak, atheist, racist/fascist, me-centric, destructive, given to rage, dark demure clothing...

Or...

Warlike, dark-armored male who uses weapons that can actually wound/kill, as opposed to Diana's essentially non-lethal tools.

(In other words, Perez's take on Ares)
 
 
Aertho
18:14 / 10.03.06
I want to sketch an Evil Dust.
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:15 / 10.03.06
I was hoping DC would bring back her 60's era Super Spy look. With a modern design.


The Rucka era Female Lex got quickly over-powered by WW's Super-foes. There can really only be one Lex Luthor.

A burqua wearing athiest technologist could be interesting but a "middle-eastern" foe against WW's star spangled panties seems, I dunno... too binary.

Less weak, more Stuborn /Close Minded? Manipulative and monochromatic.

The Perez Ares was great and Rucka's use of him now is solid and subtle, but he's no longer quite a nemisis.
 
 
Aertho
18:19 / 10.03.06
I thought Athena was leading toward a more violent takeover. Start with eliminating the Old Guard, then move out... How do you beat the Goddess of Wisdom?

Still, who else sucks that we can work on?
 
  

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