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The Villain Workshop

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14:52 / 22.03.06

Blue Devil? No!

It ought to be someone Jewish, with appropriately mystic, as opposed to religious origins, and with little to no sense of humor. Ragman is entirely too mundane, and needs a Fourth World adrenaline rush. Then, when he comes back, he can't do hometown vengeance the same way... Creating New Genesis meant using mercy and magnanimity... echoing his secret identity. There's the whole notion of "evil souls" that empower him that needs to be exploded and analyzed.

Buddy Baker might be part of the JLA Forever squad though. Maybe. Go for it!

15:31 / 22.03.06

I think we are operating on different mindsets. I was thinking of a protagonist who is essentially "blue-collar", and who can act as the reader's touchstone in the world of Asgaardian weirdness.

(I expect we also have different views of JLA Forever. Mine is more along the lines of "eternal archetypes of the core JLA". Kinda like the gods of Wonderworld, but more mythical and less cosmic)

15:47 / 22.03.06

Moondragon. Hmmm.

I'm thinking of an animus/anima split. Given that she acts so refined and "superior", if not downright arrogant, the first thing that comes to mind is someone who is more primal, less civilized. Perhaps a "Wild Huntsman" type, who is hairy, tattooed and highly fond of drinking and carousing. Give him empathic abilities (to match her telepathy), and a personality which is chaotic, but not unpleasant.

For example, what if he lands on Earth (or whichever alien world she presently calls home) and immediately claims the capital city as his new hunting lodge. He's not interested in conquest... just in one hell of a party.

(I keep picturing Brian Blessed in Flash Gordon. That sort.)

16:16 / 22.03.06

Moondragon's arch-nemesis?

Yeah, I suppose the battle for Urgrund could be told in hundreds of ways, hypertimelinesquely... I see New Gods in entirely Kabbalah-derived forms. Mine would be the crack in the Abyss, yours Ragnarok. I'm sure others could experience it as Paradise Lost, or even Camelot.

I'd want to put Moondragon up against someone that makes her feel out of control... She's like the ultimate Vulcan. Plus, she's like a space traveller, so maybe Galactus, Deathbird, Kree? Who knows? Maybe a love interest?

16:55 / 22.03.06

Yeah, Herc is the sort of character type I'm thinking of, but he's a little too nice to be an arch nemesis. Mix in a touch of Lobo, or even...

Oh, I just had a brilliant idea. Someone who is the perfect opposite of Moondragon in terms of personality, AND who has emotion-controlling powers:

Starfox! He's even a party animal.

(as for the JLAF... I don't mind the qabalistic take. But Ragman isn't particularly mystical in that sense, or indeed in any sense)

17:04 / 22.03.06

Yeah, like I said, I would keep him in the ghetooes of Gotham doing Crowlike stories, but Heiro asked for some magickal dissection... I can't easily to actual Kabbalah with the character, so use what superhero mysticism already exists, thus New Gods. Only ramp up the crazies, like when Buddy Baker went to Limbo and time travel. All religious/magic characters, if put through enough introspection and symbolic superfight action, should allways end up at Buddha. Serpents and Doves.

Hmm... what would motivate a Moondragon/Starfox rivalry? Would he sleep with a pupil of hers, and then run away?

17:14 / 22.03.06

Could be something as simple as him deciding she needs to loosen up. Or the ever popular phrase:

"We used to date".

Given that Moondragon is just barely over the line from being a villain, having her archfoe be an irresponsible hero has a certain poetry.

17:30 / 22.03.06

You know she's out, right?

Talk about space opera. Two telepaths hitchhiking across the universe. Hijinks ensue!

17:38 / 22.03.06

Okay, your turn.

17:39 / 22.03.06

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure she's bi. Certainly, she didn't have any qualms with seducing Thor (and trying to seduce Quasar)

17:46 / 22.03.06

Here's one to play with:

18:00 / 22.03.06

Talk about random. Jesus Mar. Ground level heroes, teamwork based in love and shared trauma, potential for race and class issues, but they're perennial outsiders. Like they're Spider-man's goth friends. They reek of 80s darque kewl.

I dunno. What are you thinking?

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

19:56 / 22.03.06

I dunno. The only villains for Cloak & Dagger, off the top of my head, are Night & Day (She's a dominatrix with shadow demons! He's an Eighties pseudo-punker with diseased light blasts!) and Mister Jip, the weird magician monster thing that empowered Night & Day. Oh, wait, there was also Detective O'Reilly, a reasonably cool "good cop in New York" who had a love-hate thing with C&D, as well as all the bad cops around her. Only she was transformed into a wispy gaseous imp woman in green named...ah. Calamity? Malady? Something like that. She could generate sleep toxins, poisons, and the like.

For Cloak & Dagger I'd have to give them a whole reworking, bring them back to the Holy Ghost Church in Hell's Kitchen and work out a supporting cast, first off. Tandy's mom is an obvious choice, an upper middle class Valium addict who tended to love and leave men, ignore Tandy. There was Tandy's stepfather, who had actual potential as a mentor figure for the two kids. If you bring the two of them in and make more of a family environment (even if an utterly dysfunctional one), it might ground the two a bit; they only seem to work in family settings (New Warriors, Power Pack) without resorting to darque goth eighties drug-busting craziness.

Villains wise, focus on Night & Day and bring back O'Reilly. There was a priest driven insane by Cloak's darkness, possibly he could return as a madman still clutching to his faith and utterly insane as a result -- nothing to hold onto for him. He has possession issues and wants to kill off Cloak to "purify" Tandy. Possibly a grey-scale villain to counterpoint their polarities - someone who doesn't believe in darkness OR light, just a weird mixture in between. He'd naturally be able to compensate for their powers...

21:21 / 22.03.06

The cop became the vigilante known as Mayhem. I'll hold off my own ideas for a bit, but I will tell you that "evil versions of the heroes" don't cut it.

00:44 / 23.03.06

Cloak & Dagger's nemesis should be a kind of twisted father- or mother-figure, probably representing some kind of authority or organization (official or secret). Given that they're Marvel, it might be more interesting to have them oppose SHIELD or Captain America.

Of course, the comic should all revolve around The Spot as the secret master behind the scenes.

---------

Ragman should have a team-up with Ambush Bug.

01:32 / 31.03.06

Hey Mario! You ever finish up with those Cloak and Dagger villains you promised?

02:29 / 31.03.06

Actually, I forgot (I'm getting laid off this week, so I'm a little scrambled). Let me see...

I would postulate that, rather than being simply darkness and light, Cloak and Dagger are the modern incarnations of the Spirits of Yin & Yang (with their swapped genders symbolizing Yang-within-Yin, and vice versa). They are meant to act in symbiosis, two opposite poles in perfect balance.

They'll probably find out about this from a little old guy in a robe, a monk from the order that has served these spirits for time immemorial... except for one renegade monk, who left the order to try to gain the power of BOTH spirits, using dark alchemy to prolong his life. He doesn't understand that one man CANNOT contain both spirits, for his very essence will unbalance the equation.

(Basically, I'd throw in a lot of Taoist imagery, including the kind of weird sorcery you'd see in a Mr. Vampire movie. I'd also posit that the Devourer that keeps mucking up cloak is a demon created by said monk)

Not up to my best work... but you get the basic idea.

02:54 / 31.03.06

Okay, is it my turn? Hmmm... Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Spider-Man, Ragman, Guardian, Cloak and Dagger, Moondragon...

How about this: Storm

Arguably the most visibly distinctive and popular superheroine in comics, irrevocably and unfortunately bound to her affiliation to all things X. Ororo has long outgrown Xavier's Dream, and is worth a hypothetical series of her own.

Avoid cliché, work in history as much as possible, but establish Ororo as a FUN superheroine free agent — as if she's a Johnny DC character.

The task is to build a stable of viable villains, but consider Boboss's suggestions of character versus plot development as well as the Absorbascon's Dynastic Centerpiece Model.

11:00 / 31.03.06

My biggest problem with Storm (other than Halle Berry) is that she's so identified with various minorities (due to her race, gender, and genetic gifts) that my usual approach falls flat. So I'm not going to use it.

Instead, I'm going to focus on her personality. Mohawk phase aside, Storm has almost always been a very spiritual and regal character. She's rarely frivolous or (gods forbid) goofy.

So the perfect foil for her would be someone who's an irritant, but with power enough that she can't dismiss him/her as merely a buffoon.

My suggestion? Eshu, the trickster god. He locks on her as a target, because he knows that she has a greater destiny than mere adventuress, or even queen. She IS a goddess, of a sort... an avatar of Oya, the thunder mother, orisha of storms.

Essentially, I'd treat it as less of a good vs. evil situation, and more of a personality conflict.

19:52 / 31.03.06

Wow -- that would rock. African, goofy, but not Gorilla Grodd (or nearest Marvel equivalent).

I'd love to see Ororo running into problems with a fanatical group that worship her.

20:02 / 31.03.06

God, Storm's a challenging one. I've never had a handle on her as a character and couldn't sum up her personality (assuming she's ever been given one) if I tried. Is there anything there to work with?

20:04 / 31.03.06

On reflection I think I've always seen her as a kind of prototype M - hard, magisterial, imperious, but secretly desperate for human contact - but I'm not sure where I got that idea from.

21:09 / 31.03.06

hmmm... perhaps it's her recent engagement to Black Panther but I'd almost want to take her out of Africa and perhaps place her halfway between a Wonderwoman, Swamp Thing, Mister Miracle triangle.

She's been to Asgard and a couple of permutations of Hell, outer space and alternate earths (particularly while facing off against the Native American Adversary),she's obviously an unrecognised cosmic player. With that in mind lets have the African deities "admit" they made her a mutant so she can represent them on the cosmic stage; perhaps avenge them in the post colonialist world.

Her X-man teachings would have to be applied to Gods, Inhumans, Eternals, Titans, Deviants, Atlanteans and so fourth. The whole range of super-species and their generations long conflicts need to be the thing she is responsible for saving. She's already got The Adversary & Loki nursing grudges against her, both tricksters. She'll need to go up against Myphisto next for a third trickster out to get her.

I'd like to see her base of operations become the Savage Land or perhaps a North Pole version. This way she can get to almost every part of a hemisphere under her own power. Gradually a community would form there, a literal sanctuary in the eye of a perpetual storm.

I'd Bring Crystal in as a supporting character; a sparring partner, each would refine the other's abilities. Also bring Valkyrie around as someone determined to get Storm to play on par with Gods and Goddesses. There would seem to need to be a technologist around so things don't get too granola . . . Forge seems to be the obvious choice.

Then bring on two non-trickster foes to round it all out, challenging her where she may be weakest. The Mole-Man would be a solid opposite, underground vs. claustrophobia, ugly vs. beauty, tyrant vs. leader, scientist vs. spiritual, male vs. female. From this point her activities would attract the attention of a Celestial. It would sit in outer space, the Moon or Mars and start poking and prodding this new being as it develops its global awareness & influence, opposing her in a space vs. nature, cold logic vs. emotion, ancient vs. young dynamic.

Now, how about Iron Fist. Luke Cage has been doing pretty well for himself. What's htere to do with Iron Fist?

23:13 / 31.03.06

Iron Fist. He's another Taoist archetype. Pure Yang. He approaches every problem as something to hit. Any villain that attacks him on that level would seem cliched.

But what if we created a villan (or villainess) who was pure Yin? There's an old Cloak & Dagger villainess who fits... Ecstasy. Give her some new powers, independent of Cloak, and we have a winner, I think. Maybe something vampiric...

For similar reasons, another possibility is Marvel's version of Marie Laveau, Selene (the X-villain) or even a revamped Salome (lose the wings, I think).

23:19 / 31.03.06

Anybody else want to provide the next challenge? Boboss? Grant?

Phex: Dorset Doom

21:59 / 02.04.06

Or me...

How's about: Cyclops?
As far as I know, Scott Summers has never had his own series, even a mini. He's always been too wrapped up in leading X-teams or headmastering Xavier's. So let's let him cut loose and have fantastic character-building adventures with... who exactly? The rules are: no other X-men or good mutants to help him out, and his nemesis is definitely not allowed to be Mr. Sinister.

22:30 / 02.04.06

Answered by me, but actually answered by Morrison.

You want to do a Johnny DC take of Cyclops the sooperhero?

23:05 / 02.04.06

Scott's another character, like Ororo, who needs a foil more than an adversary. Someone to take that rather long stick out of his ass.

I have this vision, suddenly, of Cyclops as James Bond. Put him in a tux, give him fashionable sunglasses instead of the visor, and throw him in the deep end of the pool. Because it would be personally amusing, I suggest having him be recruited by Natasha Romanova (simply for the redhead jokes

).

As for the adversary... a good secret agent needs exotic locales. Hong Kong? Madripoor? Are there any crimelords in the area that _aren't_ associated with the Hand/Hellfire Club?

The key is that whoever it is should NOT be associated with the X-Men in any way. Cyke needs to be a fish out of water for this to work.

Phex: Dorset Doom

23:29 / 02.04.06

My thoughts too. I was thinking of something along the lines of him going undercover- a little like the recent Nightwing stories, but more significant for Scott because, unlike NW, he's got the whole asstick thing going on. I do like the Cyke-as-James-Bond idea, maybe Fantomex and Mystique (maybe having remembered her spell as Xavier's secret agent) could make appearences, Mystique schooling Slim on the techniques of going deep undercover.

23:37 / 02.04.06

Breaking your own rules, Phex?

"The rules are: no other X-men or good mutants to help him out."

That being said, I see no problem with the Daughters of the Dragon helping out, or maybe Shang-Chi. Tho I wouldn't steal Shang-Chi's thunder by making his father the adversary. What's the Yellow Claw up to, these days?

01:27 / 03.04.06

Well alright. Cyclops as Johnny DC sooperhero. ...Another hero who has to leave the X-umbrella. While Storm might be fun as a Wonder Woman-esque diplomat and adventuress who works alongside the Avengers, thereby increasing the scope of her activity to global, more public concerns, I'd go even further with Cyke.

Why would SHIELD want or need Cyclops to be a superagent? Cyclops is refined superteam leader vintage 1980. Like Mario suggests, the only way to really get Scott Summers to be Scott Summers is to put him in a fish-out-of-water situation, and have him master it through strategy. Who could supply that and still have need for a strategist? The Shi'Ar Imperial Guard. Does Marvel even do space operas anymore?

Let's say Lilandra beams him up to Throneworld and outfits him with artificial galactic glaze - so he can survive deep space combat. He's been specifically drafted to commander a strikeforce of all-new, all-different Shi'Ar Guardsmen to go and rescue Gladiator's squad —echoing Krakoa. Only this time, it's a mystery who've got em.

Cyclops gets to repress repress repress against the likes of the Brood, Warskrulls, Technarch, all sorts of villainous ex-Shi'Ar allied worlds. See, he'd whine about being a fish out of water, but when he's in battle, he's a professional. His teammates give him shit because they all see how good he is, and can't understand why space is such a big deal for him.

Archenemy: Phoenix. Yes, ANOTHER run in with the Cosmic Chicken, only this time, it's not Jean. It's blue Kree survivor who's developed psychic mutations and a bad attitude against the Shi'Ar. It's up to Scott to hunt the boy down, and use his psychic rapport to encourage the Kree to repress his, and the Phoenix's destructive capacity.

01:49 / 03.04.06

Why would SHIELD want or need Cyclops to be a superagent

I'll admit, that's the biggest problem with my approach. I have some ideas on that score, but they are all a bit contrived.

1) He stumbles into the situation by accident.

2) The Big Bad has sensors to detect most kinds of weapons. They need an agent who is his own weapon.

3) His years of exposure (and interaction) with telepaths has made his mental defenses surprisingly strong. And the big bad has a pet telepath on staff.

4) Look! Over there! *handwave*

02:15 / 03.04.06

No, Cyclops needs a cape! He secretly wants to be a superhero.

02:22 / 03.04.06

Jack's turn!

Phex: Dorset Doom

02:36 / 03.04.06

Breaking your own rules, Phex?

"The rules are: no other X-men or good mutants to help him out."

Nope, Fantomex and Mystique are neither X-men nor strictly 'good' mutants. Bow down before my strict standards of morality.

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