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Is the Barbelith Music Forum in a coma?

 
  

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Seth
09:40 / 26.01.06
Are there any stats from Tom regarding how many people actually read the Music Forum? Or at least, you know, click on its pages?
 
 
Ganesh
10:27 / 26.01.06
Do we really think it'll pull through?
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
10:38 / 26.01.06
I tend to use the music forum more than anything else and feel that it works best as a place where music, old or new, can be recommended to people who haven't heard it.

When it comes to active debate a lot of the threads seem to fall into the Melody-Maker-circa-'95 route of arguing about the "authenticity" of an artist/album/song. It's not that I think this argument is irrelevant, far from, it's just that, for me certainly, this fight has already been resolved.

I do find myself put off going into threads about Hip-hop (which I am cultivating an interest in) because, as pointed out above, they seem to fall into underground/overground dichotomies (with very little "wombling free").

Debate about music is, I feel, one of those things that is brilliant in the pub after a few pints, when everyone can get really lairy without fear of upsetting each other, but in the cold light of the word can leave people feeling a bit out of it.

More later. My lunch break is over.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:33 / 26.01.06
What are the harsh restrictions, how do you see the formality playing out, in terms of different interface, or culture?

I think he means that if you call someone fat here instead of everyone laughing at you people seriously ask you why you're a moron. The question is why take a rubber hammer to someone's head when you could whack them with a real one?
 
 
Char Aina
16:13 / 26.01.06
none of my questions to this thread were rhetorical, as far as i am aware. i dont need an answer to all of them, but it would be nice to get a few.

mr fluxington?
could you?
unless you have me on ignore and therefore are unaware of my posts, of course.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:28 / 26.01.06
I've alway felt that discussions concerning the merits of various hip-hop artists breeds this "snobbish" behavior I am referring to.

This can be true - for example there are some people who employ a particular form of snobbery whereby they only listen to hip hop artists who rap about space and/or the good old days, and frown on the rest of it - cf the 'resistence [sic] hip hop' thread - however I think this sort of snobbery is on the wane. Similar, toksik is right, there was some snobbery in the Kylie thread on the part of people who turned up their noses at the very idea of Kylie Minogue's music being taken seriously or even just enjoyed - but I think people are past that these days. I hope so, anyway.

By the way, grant, thanks dude - there was a tiny degree of conscious emotional manipulation there, but it was mostly a genuine feeling. Better now.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
21:33 / 26.01.06
This can be true - for example there are some people who employ a particular form of snobbery whereby they only listen to hip hop artists who rap about space and/or the good old days, and frown on the rest of it - cf the 'resistence [sic] hip hop' thread - however I think this sort of snobbery is on the wane.

And, on the other side, there seems to be a camp that is very into the current/popular/party/crunk/timba/kanye crop that tends to frown upon the space/good ole days camp.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:04 / 26.01.06
The difference is that those people don't feel the strange need to preface every positive statement about the hip hop acts they like with a disclaimer that they don't like the other stuff.
 
 
Seth
22:43 / 26.01.06
The reason I asked the above question was through wondering whether people would be more inclined to contribute quality if they knew how may people were reading. A gamble, as at present I have no idea who's reading...
 
 
haus of fraser
15:48 / 27.01.06
I love the music forum and read it daily, definitely using more than any other forum. I haven't posted on it any where near as much as i'd like recently as i have been super busy with work and have had a few big family issues IRL to deal with- which in turn has led to my barbelith posts falling into the infrequent catagory. I also wrote a long reply to oulabelle's Music video thread and then my damned computer crashed before i posted it- i will be back.

In the last few weeks there have been some great threads but i simply haven't had time to post in them- The Spinto Band, The Knife, Music Video stuff, top 5 albums of the year, The Futureheads and Scott Walker - just some that spring to mind.

I think what some of the posters worrying about posting in the music forum seem to be missing is exactly what i love about the music forum - We don't all have the same tastes or opinions- I love that Flyboy was bumping his post on 'the Knife' the day i brought the album into work to put on my itunes, I love that we share some of the same musical tastes (Tindersticks, arab strap) but there are other points that i think he is way off on (Girls Aloud etc). Zenfroglet stumbled onto Barbelith shouting about 'teh sellouts!' but then offers up 'The Spinto Band' as a recommendation- which i am now downloading and really loving right now.

The way that Barbelith works and the type of people it attracts i'm suprised that people feel they can't post in music. If you like something, that's your opinion and none of us can take it away from you. I'm also aware that there are very few- 'you like them they're shit' type comments- in the music forum people are generally very respectful of other musical tastes - if they don't like it they don't post in that thread. (The only real example of someone slating another persons tastes I guess I was a big part of in the Girls Aloud thread a couple of years ago- and although an interesting debate was had, I certainly got as much as i gave and was made to feel quite bad for doing that.)

I use the board to turn me on to new sounds, I will check out music if you shout loudly enough about it- In the last year Barbelith introduced me to Sufjan Stevens, The Go! Team, Edan, and many others. I love Seth telling us about his latest Melt Banana/ Hunting Lodge venture, or swapping mix CD's with you guys. Even if i don't always get time to comment, it is my favourite bit of Barbelith.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:16 / 27.01.06
Good post there. I think part of what motivated this thread in retrospect was the lull I felt in the forum after the albums of 2005 thread quietened down - and since I never finished posting all mind, I can't complain about that - but I have to say that Barbelith has done me proud by the way the forum has livened up again in the last few days. A genuine well done all involved moment.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:42 / 27.01.06
So nobody else has a problem with the lionisation of Social Darwinism then?

Interesting...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:50 / 27.01.06
(Not meant to sound QUITE so snarky, I'll admit... I'm sure Flux didn't mean it the way it sounded, I'm just interested that it went unquestioned).
 
 
Jack Fear
20:02 / 27.01.06
What Keith was driving at here is very important, I think, and speaks very strongly to the character of this particular board.

To boil it down, Barbelith is at its best when it is analyzing something.

The problem is that that analytical mindframe is foreign to the visceral way that humans experience music, most of the time. And so many threads begin as extensions of mere enthusiasm, tend not to be particularly sustainable, and so get lost in the churn.

I think that Smoothly's book-club suggestion, as mentioned here, is a great idea—particularly if used in conjunction with Petey's idea of YouSendIt links for particular tunes. The combined effect will turn the Music forum into, in essence, an enormous group MP3 blog.

Post a single track, or two related tracks, with some context, a useful link or two, and a brief introductory essay—preferably something with enough meat, enough ambiguity or controversy to withstand a little talking-about, and let fly.

And it should be branded, so that just by looking at a post header, people know what to expect.

I'm working on an initiative to do just that, and should have it up by late tonight, US time.

In the meantime, would someone be an absolute dear and start a "Stupid Music Questions" thread, in the style of "Stupid Science Questions" in the Lab? there seems to be a need for it—for a safe space for people to learn the difference beteen a middle eight and a bridge (hint: it's the same difference as that between an aubergine and an eggplant).

Thanks.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:10 / 27.01.06
Oh, I have huge problems with the lionisation of social Darwinism, stoatie, particularly the way it fails to address existing power relations outside of an online community. I had a long, quite intense in places, IM conversatiom with Flux about this - thought about saving some of my side of it but then closed the window in a fog of tiredness. I'm not sure this is actually the place for it though - as I should have made clearer in my first post, I'd rather this thread was about the Music forum without too much discussion of other forums.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:24 / 27.01.06
'scool... I was just a bit worried nobody seemed concerned.

Sorry to hijack you!

And, more on-topic- for the record (as it were) I have now been paid for the first time in what seems aeons, so should be out getting new music (and, indeed, old music which I've read about but not heard yet) which I will no doubt wish to discuss in the next few days!
 
 
Smoothly
00:23 / 28.01.06
Barbelith is at its best when it is analyzing something.

I think there is a great deal of truth to that.

I remember reading a Jack Fear post about Petula Clark's Downtown and thinking it could be the start of a whole thread on the song.

And waddayaknow, grant clearly felt the same way at the time.
That thread has slightly different intentions, and he is approaching the song from a particular angle, but it's a good example of how one of the things I think Barbelith does best can happen in the Music forum. I'd love there to be more of that. Once I better understand 'key changes' and so on, I reckon I'd want get far more involved with that sort of thing.
 
 
Jack Fear
02:56 / 28.01.06
The initiative unveiled: Songs That Made This Country Great.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:19 / 28.01.06
My reservation about this is that I would much rather see YouSendIt being used across the forum, than for people to think that using that means of file-sharing should be specific to a certain type of thread. If someone wants to share a song by Morrisey or The Knife with people, and wants to write something of a high level analysing the song, my instinct is that they should do that in an existing thread for that band/artist, if there is one.

Having said that, it's certainly a well-intentioned idea - I suppose it will either catch on or it won't...
 
 
Ganesh
14:27 / 28.01.06
I think the novelty of the approach has something going for it. Discussion of an artist like Morrissey, for example, can go in all sorts of directions but using close examination one particular song as a starting-point allows for a degree of focus plus flexibility - and, in a geeky kind of way, I really enjoyed doing the 'homework' for a thread on Moon River (I recently read In Cold Blood as preparation for the forthcoming Capote film, and recent discussion of MSM sexuality around Brokeback Mountain and potential LibDem leaders has made me think recently of Morrissey).

I've also had one poster PM me for further Moz recommendations, which was nice.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:33 / 28.01.06
I don't think Barbelith can really do much aside from really casual discussion or some thinky threads that I would argue are almost always much better on ILM.

Patronising much? Take a look at 'nesh's wonderful essay on Morrissey's cover of Moon River and tell me that

a)it isn't intelligent, passionate and articulate and

b)that it doesn't do many of the things that an ILM thread on the issue would do while also, of course, existing within the specific contexts of the barbelith community, which add their own unique spin.
 
 
Ganesh
22:17 / 28.01.06
I *heart* GGM.

One thing I really like about this format is that it's possible to comment on individual songs with minimal knowledge of the artist's background; the onus is on the thread-starter to provide sufficient information to at least get the ball rolling, discussion-wise. At best, this could prove to be a sort of taster for new artists. I'm really hoping more posters will start STMTCG threads on their favourite songs...
 
 
Jack Fear
23:26 / 28.01.06
God, so do I.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:27 / 28.01.06
Don't worry, I, at least, have one already written in my head- I'm just tearing my room apart to find the fucking song!!!
 
 
grant
14:04 / 30.01.06
Oh, Petula... my imaginary friend....


How hard is YouSendIt to figure out?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:08 / 30.01.06
Dead easy. Stick your own email address in the 'recipient' box, attach the file, Bob's your uncle (23!).
 
 
Jack Fear
13:44 / 02.02.06
Less than a week on, so it's maybe too early to ask, but: How do we think it's going?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:24 / 02.02.06
I think it's going pretty well- yeah, a lot of the contributors have been "the usual suspects", but I like to think a lot more people are reading them, and hopefully thinking of songs they'd like to give the same treatment themselves.

Maybe bump the original thread and pose the question there? (Of course, you may already have done that... I'm in Policy at the moment so I can't tell...)
 
 
Jack Fear
15:32 / 02.02.06
Haven't yet, actually. Off to do that...
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
16:44 / 02.02.06
I've been reading some (your Crass piece was a grand read) but not others as yet. I might get around to doing one myself sometime, but I find writing about music still quite time-consuming. I usually end up writing a review instead, and then all the precious minutes are used up for getting creatively enthusiastic. I do intend giving it a go though: probably around the same time my Albums of the Year 2005 gets done, so May is looking probable.

[aside] I'm in Policy at the moment so I can't tell...

Tabbed browsing means you can be in more than one forum - or thread - at a time. Makes contributing to those long-running discussions so much easier.

[/aside]
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:09 / 02.02.06
Tabbed browsing means you can be in more than one forum - or thread - at a time. Makes contributing to those long-running discussions so much easier.

I know, I know... but I already had nine tabs on the go and it was making the browser look ugly.

One of those days...
 
 
haus of fraser
14:21 / 20.03.06
so music seems to have fallen really quiet again recently- it seems the only things that get your attention are huge flame wars- otherwise its fallen into a coma like state- c'mon people lets talk music- recommend me something, tell me why you don't like something, anybody still out there?
 
 
Quantum
17:05 / 21.03.06
The Farm. Best band in the world.
 
 
matthew.
03:02 / 22.03.06
I thought the "Bands without all the members" thread is getting some decent discussion. We're fumbling somewhat in the dark trying to clamp down what we mean and where the lines are drawn. I think there's some good discussion there. Not in a coma. Maybe a leeeeetle narcoleptic.

A problem with the music forum is that most threads are like this: name of band, why I like the band, no you're wrong, band is teh awesome, band is teh suck.

The comics forum gets a lot of action because of intrepretation and cross-referencing (eg who is Nova and what is he doing in a comic with Thanos). The music threads have few too many intrepretive attempts.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:50 / 22.03.06
Well that's it. I was going to do a big sarky STMTCG with the KLF then realised I've got nothing to say about them. I think they were great, you may disagree, but I can't express why I think they were great. I've always found that difficult with music, probably for the whole dnacing about architecture angle. I don't like a lot of stuff that Flyboy rates but at least he's able to express it.

Perhaps a 'how to write about music' thread?
 
  

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