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Is the Barbelith Music Forum in a coma?

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Regrettable Juvenilia

15:30 / 24.01.06

I'm at a loss here. 5000 members (yeah, I know, not the real number, but still) and nobody seems to want to talk about music. The threads I've started and bumped recently aren't just an attempt to promote the music I particularly like - they're also meant to show how people can just start threads, or bump them if they already exist, about current bands/music they're into. Thanks to sites like YouSendIt, it's really very easy to share MP3s, so not having heard things is an increasingly small obstacle.

I know traffic can be slow on some days in any forum, but really... I look at that current first page of the Music forum and I feel (and may look) like a crazy person. Should I just forget about it? Go somewhere else? Is there anywhere else?

Matthew Fluxington

15:44 / 24.01.06

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Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:57 / 24.01.06

I dunno, man. I read the Music but I don't post there because I would look like an imbecile. Same as the Headshop, really, only with the Headshop there's the occasional moment where the discussion veers into familiar territory and I can jump in. In the Music the chances of that happening are slim to none.

16:34 / 24.01.06

You know, I'm not sure I know *how* to post there -- I can do a write-up of a show I like, I can go back and forth and say "yeah you're right" or "no, you're obviously amusical" but that's about it. I will go look at some of your posts and see if I can figure out how one goes about doing more than that. I'm not sure why I think it's so hard, I don't have this problem in Books, for example.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

16:36 / 24.01.06

I feel that if it goes on for much longer then you could practically write a script for thread headers, take between one and four words from Dictionary.com, then autogenerate a summary that calls them the band of the year. I don't share Petey's music tastes and that's all well and good, but a load of 'discussions' of bands and artists doesn't entice me and, I guess, other people too (as I'm the sole Elbow fan on the board it would seem). If there could be some more discussions of issues in music that might kick start things again.

All Acting Regiment

17:29 / 24.01.06

But when the music forum was busy, wasn't quite a lot of it people talking rubbish? Me included, at least back in the early days. It seems to be a bit inevitable that sadly, the people most inclined to talk about music are of the OMG THIS BAND ROXX/SUX!!11! variety. Music seems to be a big comfort zone where otherwise on-the-money people could come out with stuff about Sugababes being "Pram-faces" or whatnot, and then absolutely refuse to take in opposing arguments as they might do in the Headshop.

So you've got this duality- music seems to be something that is on the one hand very important to people- to the point where they'll happily rant unreasonably for hours about how Girls Aloud are destroying music or whatever- but not "important" in the sense that they're wiling to properly talk about it, with evidence and quotes and whatnot, or to go back on strong views when they're shown to be wrong. It's seen as a big subjective area where you go to shout.

That's one problem. The other would seem to be that we've sort of "done" all the canon of big/classic bands- I'm not saying we've exhausted music, but the shared pool of stuff that's been around long enough and is well known enough for us all to talk lots about it (VU, Bowie, Public Enemy etc) has been drunk up, and while there is lots you can say about new music, it's pool just isn't that deep yet.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

17:48 / 24.01.06

Also my perception, though I have no way to prove or disprove it, is that posting levels generally seem to be down, with the exception of the Conversation and Comics. Maybe the Music is just one of the worst victims of this?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

17:55 / 24.01.06

AND! (Sorry about this, I'm making my dinner at the mo), we had a similar sort of discussion several years ago, over why the Books forum was so quiet and I think the conclusion was much the same, wide and different tastes with minimal levels of overlap. Ironically there are now more levels of overlap (China Mieville, Harry Potter, Susannah Clarke) but those are very slow growing threads...

17:57 / 24.01.06

what discussions do you see people having?
i dont particularly feel that music suits discussion in the manner of the other fora, but i am willing to hear how it does.

when they're shown to be wrong

i dont really know what you mean. do you feel that people can be wrong in what they like or dislike? or do you just mean when they say stuff like 'sex for profit'?

personally i like arguments about taste, as long as everyone accepts that there is no right or wrong. i reckon telling me that i and all other fans of slayer are braindead goons is good fun if you are happy to let me say you are clearly not Manly enough to appreciate True Metal.

i find 'i like X' followed by 'i like X too' discussions kinda boring, especially if they arent fleshed out a good bit.

so yeah.
in your ideal playground what games would the other children ask you to play with them?
have you got any threads in mind that you wanna see more of?

18:02 / 24.01.06

(as I'm the sole Elbow fan on the board it would seem)

Well, there you go. I haven’t heard much Elbow, what I have heard has washed over me, but I’d be interested in hearing something you like and reading why you like it. That’s a slightly different starting point for a discussion than ‘I like band x, anyone else?’. Seriously, yousendits. They’re the future.

I was thinking about this a while ago, with the 'geetar hero' thread. So much enthusiasm in there, but I didn’t recognise many of the names that were being most enthusiastically touted, and the guitarists I would’ve wanted to write about, while not super-obscure, were all reaaaallly old blues guys. And sometimes if you write something, and noone else around can hear the sound that you’re hearing in your head as you rave about it, then it’s kinda like dropping a stone into a pool and leaving no ripples. Or something.

All Acting Regiment

18:03 / 24.01.06

i dont really know what you mean. do you feel that people can be wrong in what they like or dislike? or do you just mean when they say stuff like 'sex for profit'?

I just meant when someone just comes on and posts a load of arse slurry. I should have phrased it better. No, there's no righto r wrong in taste but what if someone said e.g. "Metal is good but hip hop's bad because it uses violent imagery?"

18:45 / 24.01.06

I think the reason I don't post in the Music very often is a similar reason to those given by Mordant Carnival and Dirty Ho -I just don't think I write about the music I like well enough for people not to deride me for liking it. That said, I think there might be something about the way topics (in the sense of, link on which one clicks, not in the sense of '...of conversation') are treated on Barbelith that might mean Music is quieter than other fora; whenever I talk about music in real life I find the conversation moves quite fast, doesn't stay on the topic of one band (or artist, or album) to the same extent as a conversation about a single book or film might. So perhaps people post less because they're worried about going offtopic -the recommendations threads in Music are usually active and interesting, and it's harder to go offtopic there unless someone wanders with an opinion like "SELLOUTS ALL" and we all have a ruck over that for a bit.

That said, it's a forum I really enjoy reading, so maybe I should make more of an effort. I shall start by trying to frame thoughts about Morningwood that are not just "ooh when can i dance to this!"

(Having written and posted this I realise I said exactly the same thing in almost exactly the same words in 2004 in the now-bumped thread in the Music. Sorry all.)

19:20 / 24.01.06

do you think the judgemental attitudes that surround music are the problem? or a part of it?

i have no shame in saying i love mastadon, but i might have at one time felt embarrassed to admit to liking the latest rachel stevens. i used to think that some music was lame without knowing it at all well, basing my opinion on my perception of the fans(i figure). that awareness of how judgemental folks (like me) could be certainly affected what i would admit (to myself, even) what i liked.

maybe folks have similar problems admitting to their musical tastes?

if so, how would we best fix that?

Tryphena Absent

19:20 / 24.01.06

I think my main problem with music is entirely my problem- I can't remember song titles or even the names of artists most of the time: I own albums that I could name two songs off. So any contribution would be rooted in confusion. That's why I don't post there. Generally I can talk about music but it might be a better forum if we broadened it a bit and if more people were willing to talk about more types of music.

For instance there was a thread in Conversation about trying to find the music for a hymn- shouldn't that be in the music forum?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

19:21 / 24.01.06

Personally I've not posted much in there because it's January and I haven't had any money since before Christmas, so I haven't bought any new music. (And any new stuff I HAVE got has been review copies for Freq, which obviously gets first go on my comments on it, and for which I am well-behind with reviews. Sorry T-M!) Everything I've been downloading has been stuff I already have on vinyl but, not having a record deck, want for my MP3 player.

Tryphena Absent

19:24 / 24.01.06

By the way that comment about more types of music- I started a thread about opera that sunk so it's not that I haven't tried, it's that no one was interested.

20:30 / 24.01.06

Can I say that the topic summary here makes me want to give Petey a really big hug?

00:05 / 25.01.06

I feel a bit like Nina in that I don't have the vocabulary for talking about music. I honestly don't really understand what a bar is. I'd get a middle eight confused with a bridge, fail to notice how strange the change from major to minor, and all the cool kids will take the piss.

Is there a stupid music questions thread? I might try to get more involved in the forum if there was some kind of remedial class I could sit at the back of for a while. And, yeah, more links to mp3s would make me feel that I could quickly get onto the same page as everyone else. In fact, I reckon some more narrowly focused threads might benefit people like me. A book-club approach, perhaps, where a single track was presented and discussed? I remember reading a Jack Fear post about Petula Clark's Downtown and thinking it could be the start of a whole thread on the song.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

00:32 / 25.01.06

Nina- so did I.

07:23 / 25.01.06

I honestly don't really understand what a bar is. I'd get a middle eight confused with a bridge, fail to notice how strange the change from major to minor, and all the cool kids will take the piss.

there is a dumb questions thread, and i'm sure there are folks who would explain what a bar/middle eight/bridge is for you. i know i would. i dont reckon you really need to know much music theory to discuss music, though.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:18 / 25.01.06

Matthew - you know full well that I'm a regular reader of and irregular poster to I Love Music. However, while ILM has some obvious advantages over Barbelith's music forum that are arguably just the result of having more active members - it's so far ahead of the curve in terms of new music that it may as well be in a different time zone - it's also a very harsh, cut-throat, unforgiving place. People say that kind of thing about Barbelith, but that's really not accurate in the way I'm thinking of.

For example, personal attacks on a fellow member of the board based on allegations about their writing and/or career outside of it, or vicious, petty attacks on a poster or a music writer based on their physical appearance, tend to get very short shrift on here, to the point of moderator intervention. On ILM they are reasonably common - and however vague and conflicted Barbelith's aspirations towards being a 'safe space' or having a broadly progressive political tone might be, ILM has no such aspirations. Which is why I approach the place much in the way a shoplifter might approach a store full of armed, trigger-happy, licensed-to-kill security personnel: there's stuff there I want, but I favour getting in and out quickly and quitely.

I'm sure certain Vice-reading contrarians could put together an argument that the above is also why Barbelith's music forum is less busy. I'm not convinced by that though.

Matthew Fluxington

19:43 / 25.01.06

Yeah, those are decent points about ILX, but the thing of it is, it has virtually all of the best music writers either actively participating or lurking/occasionally posting and as a result, it just has a lot more to offer in terms of challenging thoughts and what you can learn. I don't think Barbelith can really do much aside from really casual discussion or some thinky threads that I would argue are almost always much better on ILM.

Matthew Fluxington

19:49 / 25.01.06

Also, I don't think ILM benefits as much from having more active members as it does what kind of people ARE the active members. I definitely believe the harsh restrictions and formal nature of Barbelith has scared away a lot of smart, thoughtful people who are more attracted to the freedom and loose spirit of the anarchic social Darwinism of ILX.

20:06 / 25.01.06

anyone we would notice, apart from yourself?

did you loosen your ties to here for similar reasons to those you describe?

Keith, like a scientist

21:02 / 25.01.06

I find the Music Forum really difficult to penetrate for a couple reasons.

First, I feel like it's not an interpretive forum in the way that Film, Comics, even Books are. The discussions in those fora seem to be based on back and forth about what something means to them and also what it means from the point of view of the creator. The Music Forum tends to be "I like Joe Music Guy, who else likes them?" followed by some backslapping about how great Joe Music Guy is. Then the thread eventually dies. It's not a discussion of what Joe Music Guy is trying to say with his Joe Music.

Second, music discussion tends to bring some severely snobbish opinions to the table. I am certainly a total (and somewhat proud) snob about what I think is good and what is bad. On Barbelith, where opinions seem to be particularly strong, this snobbish gets heightened often. At least, that's my perception of something that happens throughout the Music Forum.

Third, on a completely personal level, my tastes in music seem to clash with most of the people who post in that particular forum. I'd love to participate more, but I rarely feel like I have something to say on music that is discussed.

However, I am really interested in doing whatever I can to improve that forum as music is easily one of the most important things to me, as an avid listener and as a budding artist.

I felt really good that the topic I recently posted regarding Music Appreciation generated so many intensely thoughtful replies. So many that I have been unable to reply to 90% of it! I feel bad that I posted it right when work got super busy and now I haven't been able to join in the discussion. It's certainly an area of music discussion that is important to me.

Perhaps a way to wake the Music Forum up is to discuss more abstract thoughts like this instead of very specific discussion of particular bands and artists?

I would also be interested in perhaps some "mp3 essays" where someone posts something they find to be interesting in a very extreme way and see what happens with people's reactions...

21:45 / 25.01.06

my tastes in music seem to clash with most of the people who post in that particular forum.

perhaps those who would post stuff about music you do like feel the same way? i'd say start the threads on the bands you reckon no one wants to read about and then see what happens.

21:51 / 25.01.06

I'd post in the music but I'm rubbish at talking about it. I have a constant fear that I might accidentally say something horrifying like, "Get on down to those big beats."

Regrettable Juvenilia

22:04 / 25.01.06

With regard to the format of enthusiastic threads > backslapping > death - well sure, that happens. I'd like it to happen less. When I start threads about bands or artists, I try to say a little about what I get out of their music in a way that goes beyond "it rules!", for example. I don't know why it doesn't happen more that people get into these discussions. Maybe it's because, paradoxically, people's Music taste on the board is more diverse than people's taste in Comics or even Films and TV.

As for snobbishness... Are you thinking of any examples in particular?

I should state that this thread was partly inspired by the thread about the Temple. It's interesting that a common response seems to be that people *would* like to talk about music more, but don't have the confidence - interesting because people have said that about the Head Shop and Temple in the past also. As a moderator of the Music forum I would really like to encourage anyone who wants to post to do so. Seriously, in the short term, I'm of a mind to say don't worry about the quality of your posts. I know that Barbelith generally encourages people to think about the quality of their posts and that's good - although in practice you have to sink pretty low before someone calls you out on this. But for now, in the Music forum, I feel like the first thing we need is more discussion, so that we can reach a certain critical mass. Better discussion will come as we interact and force each other to raise our game - but we start by playing at all.

It's already happening - the forum has been busier today than it was yesterday. Which is nice.

22:05 / 25.01.06

i reckon you could say that, lula.
i'm going to say it to someone tomorrow, possibly even in the presence of big beats.

fix up, look sharp!

Regrettable Juvenilia

22:06 / 25.01.06

Yeah, seriously, if everyone who heard a piece of music and thought "Get on down to those big beats!" or equivalent posted it in the Music forum tomorrow, I'd be a happy bunny.

22:19 / 25.01.06

As for snobbishness... Are you thinking of any examples in particular?

i'll go have a look at it and get back to you, but i seem to recall the kylie discussion feling a bit 'we know better' in places. i havent read it in about a year, so i could well be remembering it wrong.

i keep thinking of some dude in imperial fleet leathers saying "you rockist scum", but i'm not sure how that's helpful.

00:16 / 26.01.06

...it's not an interpretive forum in the way that Film, Comics, even Books are.

DING DING DING

Keith, like a scientist

01:40 / 26.01.06

As for snobbishness... Are you thinking of any examples in particular?

I'm always terrible at citing specific examples, but, mostly I've alway felt that discussions concerning the merits of various hip-hop artists breeds this "snobbish" behavior I am referring to. It seems to split along a sort underground/overground divide. I'll look up some examples if I can find them. Sorry, this isn't helping my case much, I know.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

01:58 / 26.01.06

Um... Flux, you used the phrase "social Darwinism" and not as a negative. Could you expand on that please?

Goodness Gracious Meme

02:12 / 26.01.06

Seconded.

Also, could you expand a bit more on this, as it might be useful in thinking about what the Music forum is and could be:

I definitely believe the harsh restrictions and formal nature of Barbelith has scared away a lot of smart, thoughtful people who are more attracted to the freedom and loose spirit of the anarchic social Darwinism of ILX.

What are the harsh restrictions, how do you see the formality playing out, in terms of different interface, or culture?

(FYI, I read ILM on and off, and think there are good and bad things about it, some of which might be relevant here)

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