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Is the Barbelith Music Forum in a coma?

 
  

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SteppersFan
09:57 / 24.05.06
OK Haus .

Not sure it's the colour Tom, but I suspect people come to B for other subjects that music, which is a subject that people want to talk about, just not as much as the other stuff. Which is OK.
 
 
Loomis
10:35 / 24.05.06
I know they're just joking around (or is that JOKE!!1!ING) but when most of the responses to the RHCP thread are to say how shit they are, it's no surprise that a lot of more casual music listeners stay away from the music forum.

Not everyone has musical tastes or knowledge as wide or deep as some of those who regularly post in the forum, but they should be allowed to enthuse about a band they like without being ridiculed by the cool kids. The books forum is full of threads and posts on writers I consider complete garbage but (even though the books forum is in more of a coma than music is) I think people feel less likely to be ridiculed there for the books they like.

I would love the first reply to a Harry Potter thread to be along the lines of the first reply to the RHCP thread but diff'rent strokes and all that. For all the protestations by forum regulars that all music discussion is welcome if you genuinely love any aspect of a band's output, when a thread is full of negativity before you even get to it, it takes a bit of courage to buck against that, and not everyone has that courage, or should need to.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:55 / 24.05.06
Utter bullshit, Loomis. Every other forum on the board, and every other music discussion forum on the internet, can withstand and indeed would suffer without the possibility of the majority of people being critical of or negative about the subject of a thread.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:00 / 24.05.06
Also in the category of "bullshit" is your attempt to suggest that there is a general hive-mind consensus majority of "cool kids" in the Music forum who personally mock people who like music they don't. Quite aside from the fact that no personal attacks are present, the notable thing about the RHCP thread is in fact that it has united people who otherwise have very different tastes - it is a rare moment of something that looks like negative consensus, as I tried to highlight in my first response to it. And in fact it is not consensus at all.
 
 
illmatic
11:04 / 24.05.06
So we have one person saying the Music Forum is less aggressive than the rest of the board, and another saying its more so?

There are several people who've said they liked RHCP in that thread and they've hardly been shouted down, or driven off the board. I think people should be allowed to advance a negative line as they like provided it's well-expressed, thought through and solid and consistent reasons are given. Same goes for expressions of positivity.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:41 / 24.05.06
Utter bullshit, Loomis. Every other forum on the board, and every other music discussion forum on the internet, can withstand and indeed would suffer without the possibility of the majority of people being critical of or negative about the subject of a thread.

In my experience, in real life that is, a lot of discussions about music tend to be about establishing superiority, trendiness and ridiculing those with "bad" taste. I don't think this is particularly atypical and, again in my experience, doesn't happen to the same extent with other art forms.

Criticism isn't really the point, but suggesting (jokeyily!!!) that no one can have any reason at all for liking a popular band is somewhat reminiscent of the laugh and snub dynamic. Not that it is particularly bad - it was a fairly mild comment of yours fly - but it is what I have come to expect from discussions of music. So I don't usually contribute...I doubt I have much interesting to say, and saying it isn't worth the effort.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:04 / 24.05.06
in my experience, doesn't happen to the same extent with other art forms.

I disagree with that. I think that people who overtly favour contemporary art are just as likely to ridicule those with bad taste, likewise I know a lot of people who would have the same type of response to Dan Brown as they do to the Kaiser Chiefs. I suspect that the difference between the Music forum and Books and Literature is that novels don't have the same kind of exposure as music and take longer to experience.

And to be perfectly frank I wouldn't want to stay somewhere that I couldn't slate Dan Brown.
 
 
Loomis
12:11 / 24.05.06
Utter bullshit, Loomis. Every other forum on the board, and every other music discussion forum on the internet, can withstand and indeed would suffer without the possibility of the majority of people being critical of or negative about the subject of a thread.

Also in the category of "bullshit" is your attempt to suggest that there is a general hive-mind consensus majority of "cool kids" in the Music forum who personally mock people who like music they don't.


Easy for you to say, since you are one of the cool kids doing it. It’s easy for the one benefitting from the power dynamic to deny that anything is taking place.

This is your thread. You asked for why people don’t post there more often. If you’re not interested in a reason why a lot of less hardcore music fans don’t post there, then don’t ask the question. Don’t try to invalidate a problem I have with the forum by denying that it takes place. I see it all the time. If someone doesn’t like your music then they’re rockist and haterz, but when you don’t like something it’s somehow self-evident that all right-thinking people agree with you. I’m surprised you haven’t yet thanked all people who agree with you. You are a very vocal and opinionated poster and you are either being disingenuous or you simply don’t realise the power a few loud voices can have in creating a culture of what music is cool and what isn’t.

In any case, I’m only flagging this up as a small observation. It’s not a huge thing, but it’s something I notice sometimes and particularly today with this thread. I’m not saying that the comments there were aggressive. I know that they were more in the nature of piss-taking. But when the very first reply to a thread is “They are, though, really, the worst band in the history of the world”, made by a well-respected and prolific music poster, I think it’s at the least irresponsible and not likely to lead to your stated aim of increasing traffic.

A lot of people are a bit timid about talking about tastes that they feel might be mocked. Not everyone is as confident as you, and you can’t even see the “cool kids” thing because you are one of them and your comments in that thread are just one example. And just to clarify, I didn’t mean that you mocked people but mocking a band isn’t exactly going to make that person want to speak up, or start a thread on a band that might receive a similar first reply.

Again, this isn’t a huge deal or an attack on the forum, but you asked for opinions so there you go.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:33 / 24.05.06
Don’t try to invalidate a problem I have with the forum by denying that it takes place. I see it all the time. If someone doesn’t like your music then they’re rockist and haterz, but when you don’t like something it’s somehow self-evident that all right-thinking people agree with you.

Links, please.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:37 / 24.05.06
Ah, I see. I assure you that I am interested in reasons people might have for not posting in the Music forum, Loomis, although if, as in Lurid's case, the reasons are nothing to do with the forum itself, and more to do with bad experiences outside of Barbelith, there is little I can do to help.

Could you do me a favour, though? Could you define "cool kids" for me, without just pointing and saying "you are one!"? Could you also explain how this alleged "power dynamic" works that I benefit from? Also...

Don’t try to invalidate a problem I have with the forum by denying that it takes place. I see it all the time. If someone doesn’t like your music then they’re rockist and haterz, but when you don’t like something it’s somehow self-evident that all right-thinking people agree with you.

If you see it all the time, perhaps you'd like to provide some examples, just a few of the many? Particularly one in which I call someone a "rockist" for not liking the music I like.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:39 / 24.05.06
if, as in Lurid's case, the reasons are nothing to do with the forum itself, and more to do with bad experiences outside of Barbelith, there is little I can do to help.

Thats a little unfair, dude, and kinda dismissive.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:47 / 24.05.06
How so? Unless I'm missing something your post could be summarised as: "My experiences of discussion of music outside of Barbelith is that those exchanges have been characterised by ridicule and attempts to establish status, therefore even an admittedly mild comment reminds me of these experiences; this plus my low opinion of what I have to offer makes me not post in the Music forum."

I mean, I'm sure you do have something interesting to say about Music, and that you will not be personally ridiculed or put down for your views, or at least that if that is done by an individual, they will be frowned upon, but other than assuring you of all that, how can I help?
 
 
illmatic
14:02 / 24.05.06
If someone doesn’t like your music then they’re rockist and haterz, but when you don’t like something it’s somehow self-evident that all right-thinking people agree with you.

I think that's an unfair characterisation of Flyboy, Loomis. If he doesn't like something, he usually, um, doesn't contribute to the thread. With regard to criticism of music in genres he is interested in, I think his criticism are very well argued and have pretty solid reasoning behind them. See the "Bling" thread for an example. It's certainly not about snap judgements based on what's cool and what isn't.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:05 / 24.05.06
To reiterate, in the absence of examples to the contrary I would argue that the RHCP thread is an anomaly in recent Music forum history, and that given that, it's very odd but perhaps telling how quickly some people have picked it up as an example of everything that's wrong and off-putting about the place.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:08 / 24.05.06
Well, you did say:
In my experience, in real life that is, a lot of discussions about music tend to be about establishing superiority, trendiness and ridiculing those with "bad" taste. I don't think this is particularly atypical and, again in my experience, doesn't happen to the same extent with other art forms.


And then added that this was not actually going on in the discussion of RHCP, but only that what was going on was "somewhat remeniscent". Without bringing in any dangerous words like "issues", we could suggest, taking into account Anna de L's suggestion that this happens in other fields, that perhaps your experience is because these encounters are with competitive _people_, and that music happens to be the field of conflict, where it might elsewhere be modern art or cars.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:23 / 24.05.06
Not get defensive when someone points out an example of exactly the pattern you've just described? I mean, I don't want to overstate this, I'm not intimidated or frightened by the thought of the cool kids jeering at me. And I don't think you are any kind of bully (the idea is ludicrous)...but I guess I work under the assumption that jeering is, at least in part, what the music forum is *for*. Admittedly, I don't go very often, so maybe I am wrong and maybe I'm just getting confirmation bias. But if you are denying that there is even a little bit of sneering, when pointed to what I think is an example, then you aren't doing very much to convince me that my model for music fora is out of whack.

Having said that, the barriers to my posting there are pretty low and I agree that I wouldn't really have a hard time - the reasons I don't post are almost all down to me. But my perception of the atmosphere acts as a small disincentive. I don't know if others feel the same, and I'm not trying to claim that this is *the* problem radio & music has to address, I just thought it was something worth thinking about at least.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:43 / 24.05.06
Not get defensive when someone points out an example of exactly the pattern you've just described?

"Defensive" - see Seth here.

"Pattern" - I assume you mean either "a reliable sample of traits, acts, tendencies, or other observable characteristics of a person, group, or institution" or "frequent or widespread incidence". Where is this pattern?
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:49 / 24.05.06
To reiterate, in the absence of examples to the contrary I would argue that the RHCP thread is an anomaly in recent Music forum history, and that given that, it's very odd but perhaps telling how quickly some people have picked it up as an example of everything that's wrong and off-putting about the place.

I guess you aren't going to believe this then...but I went to R&M today for the first time in ages and found the RHCP thread, which I opened partly because I started listening to them again recently.

Without bringing in any dangerous words like "issues" - Haus

I mean, sure, as a goth one does tend to be subject to conversational gambits like, "I'd become a goth only I have taste in music." So, yeah, there are issues there. (I can't stand discussing music with goths, either, btw...thats almost always worse, in a different flavour). But I opened a random thread, saw the hate and thought I recognised the scenery; its not just my issues rearing their many tentacled heads. Having said that, I'm willing to take Flys word for it that this was atypical and give the forum an proper try, if I can find the time.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:51 / 24.05.06
quickly..."pattern" was referring to using music as a status symbol generally, not on the Barb necessarily. And defensive I stick by, because you've just said that the RHCP was an anomaly, but not really given the impression before that there was anything much wrong with it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:56 / 24.05.06
What?

Look, Lurid, you don't have to take my word for anything. You can just so some very quick clicking around and skim-reading of the first page of the Music forum.
 
 
Quantum
14:59 / 24.05.06
same type of response to Dan Brown as they do to the Kaiser Chiefs Anna de Logardiere

*PFFFT!* I have a much stronger response to dirty Dan Brown than any glum-rock or indeed almost any band. I second that, I wouldn't stay on a board I couldn't eviscerate bad works of art or books or films or comics or music...

I'm not one of the cool kids, I don't even know what RHCP stands for *looks at the Music forum* Oh, now I do, the Chilli Peppers.
But I certainly wouldn't see that as a deterrent to posting, if everybody else hates what I like, I'll argue my corner but at the end of the day fuck 'em, I like what I like. In fact I like RHCP and will go there and say that now.
 
 
matthew.
15:50 / 24.05.06
(Whenever I see the RHCP for Chili Peppers, my brain always always think Rocky Horror Picture Show. Just thought I'd share)


I'm not posting in the RHCP thread because I like them and I have nothing to add to the discussion other than that. Since there's quite a bit of Pepper-hate, I'm not going to bother posting there. There you go.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:14 / 24.05.06
Lurid, I have to say I have similar perceptions about the Music forum, but a quick look hasn't really backed them up*, and I'm prepared to admit that they could be wrong. So maybe the question is why is there this perception about the forum, whether it's justified or not?


*As a barometer, the 10,000 Days thread has remained snark-free, and if ever there was a band to bring out the h8terz on Barbelith, Tool were that band.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
18:25 / 24.05.06
Semi-off-topic (at least the current topic) but I have a question of legality. I was initially going to do a STMTCG about a song from a band I like, then decided that, fuck it, I'll do the entire album. This album is out of print and, as far as I can tell, pretty much not available to buy online. The record company which produced it appears to have folded and the band has broken up. The only place it's available is an audioblog. Is linking to this blog, and more specifically to the album available for download on it, kosher? I highly doubt the band/company is going to have any problem with it given neither appear to exist anymore but I don't want to cause Tom any legal problems since I'm essentially advocating piracy...

I have, by the way, contacted the dude who runs the blog and he has no problem with me linking to it here (I was concerned any potential upswing in traffic might cause him to exceed his bandwidth limit... I know almost nothing about the internet in case that wasn't obvious).

Flyboy, music mods, any thoughts on this? Sorry to go offtopic but I didn't know where else to put this.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:33 / 24.05.06
If the album's out of print, the label's folded and the band has broken up, then I can't see any reason not to post the link. You still might want to PM Tom to be 100% sure, though.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
18:42 / 24.05.06
Sounds good. I'll do that, thanks.
 
 
Jackie Susann
04:52 / 26.05.06
Since I found this thread I have been trying to post more in the Music forum, but I figure I should say quickly why I don't tend to more often. There are a couple reasons.

1 - I just don't think many people here share my tastes enough for it to be worth it. Most times I click on the Music forum, I see thread topics organised around a bunch of guitar bands I am just not interested in (no diss to those who are) and pretty quickly turn around and leave. I dunno how accurate this perception of the majority content is, it might just reflect the random times I go to that forum. On the other hand, when I started a thread on my favourite rapper as part of my contribute-more drive, it got one response and sunk.

2 - 9 times out of 10, I can't articulate what I like about a song more coherently than OHMYGOD THIS BIT IS AWESOME!!! or the like. Where I do see a thread about something I'm into, it's almost always got a bunch of people articulating why they like it better than I ever could.

I don't think there's anything to do about either of these. Just throwing out my $0.02.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:18 / 26.05.06
You could hook me up with a T.I. mp3 from the new album, or two, if you have that capacity. That would help, help the community.

But seriously, a) I will try and hear some of my own accord, and post to the thread, b) you know I will post to non-guitar band threads, so I say the more the merrier...
 
 
Jackie Susann
08:55 / 26.05.06
I wasn't complaining nobody posted to my thread, it was meant as symptomatic that my interests don't overlap with Barbelith's a whole lot. But I will post an mp3 if I can figure out how.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:33 / 26.05.06
You Send It is the easiest way...
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:00 / 29.05.06
Look, Lurid, you don't have to take my word for anything. You can just so some very quick clicking around and skim-reading of the first page of the Music forum.

I have now (I've been extremely busy of late) and you are absolutely right. Even the way the RHCP thread has developed has been pretty good. So despite what I say above, the Music forum is actually pretty low snark.
 
 
Smoothly
12:24 / 29.05.06
As asked in the Policy Miscellany thread, are there no legal problems with YSI links?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:57 / 29.05.06
Thanks Lurid. I wonder if Loomis is going to come back and substantiate his claims with examples, or retract them if there are no examples to be found?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:25 / 29.05.06
Steve: since YSI links are only valid for seven days or a number of downloads, whichever comes first, I think we should be okay as long as nobody does anything foolish (like put up an entire album).

On an unrelated note, I miss this thread's original title and abstract. If the Music forum can have a 'questions about Morrissey' thread as well as the main Mozzer thread, surely it could have a general Southern rap thread as well as a thread about the new T.I. album? Ah well, it's not a big deal I suppose...
 
 
Seth
04:15 / 30.05.06
I'm not sure how Flyboy can be seen as one of the cool kids when to my knowledge he doesn't own a single Yasunao Tone album.

That may seem like a quick joke... but the reality of the situation is that Flyboy gets the piss taken out of him for some of his tastes, as does everyone from time to time.

I do quite a lot. People act dismissive, or disbelieving, or openly hostile to a lot of stuff I love. Fuck 'em.
 
  

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