BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Questions and Answers - Part 3

 
  

Page: 1 ... 101102103104105(106)107108109110111... 125

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:50 / 13.03.08
Chuck Norris wears Michael Madsen pyjamas.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:51 / 13.03.08
Additional: can people see the pictures on my Myspace blog?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:10 / 13.03.08
I can. Very nice.
 
 
Papess
03:54 / 15.03.08
UPDATE:

His name was Arnold. He was Swiss, not Swedish (my bassackwardness, pardon), and he was was a complete idiot!

I walked away...or rather, sprinted. Now, to the miserable thread because I love dating at 37 about as much as a stab in the temple.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:56 / 15.03.08
Was it Schwarzennegorerer?
 
 
Whisky Priestess
12:09 / 16.03.08
I can see the pix, Mordant. Using IE 7, I think.

Now, can anyone tell me how to delete a friend from my Facebook? I don't hate them, I just don't know them and accidentally accepted their invite while still a n00b.
 
 
jentacular dreams
12:36 / 16.03.08
Go to all friends, then click the little X by their name. You'll get a 'are you sure' message, follow your conscience from that point on.

I find it's best not to remove the people you do hate. Easier to keep track of them that way....
 
 
kan
21:04 / 16.03.08
I'm looking for information on use of the passive voice in writing, beyond the bare explanation of how it is constructed.

Anyone know where I might find musings on motives for its use?
 
 
HCE
21:07 / 16.03.08
Hey folks, "passive voice" != "vague about agency"

Like so?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:09 / 16.03.08
A good example that I often use is "Mistakes were made." Who made these mistakes? I don't know, they just happened.
 
 
iamus
11:00 / 17.03.08
Does anyone know how to pronounce the name "Sharonjit"?
 
 
kan
12:19 / 17.03.08
Thanks brb, that piece on language log clarified my misconception about use of passive voice neatly.
 
 
grant
16:49 / 17.03.08
Yeah, passive voice is the classic cloak for making things seem authoritative and simply unquestionably true.

Mistakes were made, taxes were increased, people were forced out of their homes.

You can find better examples in most political speeches, especially from a figure who has started to come under attack.
 
 
grant
15:51 / 18.03.08
Oh, in old-fashioned journalism, it's also a trick for making a story seem like a story:

"It was in the Florida Everglades that John McGuffin first learned how to skin alligators."

Although this isn't exactly the same.


-----

Question:
Is miss wonderstarr still around? Anyone know how to get in touch? Had a question about teaching comics....
 
 
Spaniel
16:11 / 18.03.08
Ze crushed Randy a few days ago, from what I remember. Tried the magic of pm?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:19 / 18.03.08
Although this isn't exactly the same.

It isn't the passive voice, for starters.
 
 
grant
16:56 / 18.03.08
Yeah, I know, but I can't explain to myself *why*.

There was not an explanation.

Tried the magic of pm?

Just did, but then thought "Haven't seen wonderstarr in a while now..."
 
 
Mistoffelees
16:59 / 18.03.08
Sometimes I get letters, where the envelopes are closed by some glue.

The envelopes look like this:


When I open the letter, there is a blue light at the space where the envelope opening gets unglued. It looks like the blue of a flame, when alcohol is burning.

How does that work? Why is there a blue light, when the envelope is opened? The first time I saw it, I suspected, I was imagining things. But with this type of envelope I see this phenomenon again and again.

Someone please explain.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
17:01 / 18.03.08
You either have powerful friends or dangerous enemies.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
17:05 / 18.03.08
I am so wishing I could see that envelope picture right now ...
 
 
Mistoffelees
17:05 / 18.03.08
Yes, I know it sounds strange. But every time I open these letters, there really is this strange effect. Maybe some chemical reaction in the glue?
 
 
Mistoffelees
17:11 / 18.03.08
It doesn´t show up? Okay, then here is a different picture of the kind of envelope I mean:

 
 
*
17:14 / 18.03.08
Because it still takes the form of the subject verbing the object, grant.

PV version: In the Florida Everglades, the art of skinning alligators was learned (by McGuffin, who would be the subject if this sentence were in active voice).

"To learn" something is a slightly difficult verb to passi-passivi-passify? because the natural passive voice alternative is "to be taught" something.

Version 2: In the Florida Everglades, McGuffin was taught to skin alligators (by someone, who would otherwise be the subject).
 
 
grant
17:25 / 18.03.08
But isn't the subject "It" and the verb "was" with everything else after "that" being a declarative content clause (and thus an object)?

It's that "It was..." intro that I used to see all the time.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:35 / 18.03.08
Why is there a blue light, when the envelope is opened?

It's a discharge of static electricity.
 
 
grant
17:48 / 18.03.08
Not exactly.

Fractoluminescence happens when crystalline molecular bonds are broken. Apparently, you can see the same thing by taking ice out of the freezer or chewing on wintergreen lifesavers.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:49 / 18.03.08
grant: I think the "it was" construction has power because, consciously or not, it recalls the language of ballads and folksongs.

It was in the town of Jacksonville in the spring of '73
When a well-known famous drover came a-walking up to me...


That's from "The Buffalo Skinners."

It was in the town of Shawnee, all on a Christmas day
Came a whole car load of groceries, and a letter that did say...


That's Woody Guthrie singing about Pretty Boy Floyd.

I think partly it works because it seems to drop you in in medias res—leading off with that undefined "it," and it just keeps tugging you forward.

The novel I'm working on? I had the damnedest time getting started. I must have rewritten my first sentence a dozen times; when I finally hit upon the "It was," I knew I'd gotten it right—because it was an opening that suited the kind of story I wanted to tell.
 
 
Mistoffelees
17:57 / 18.03.08
Fractoluminescence happens when crystalline molecular bonds are broken.

Yes, that´s it! Thank you, grant! The german wikipedia article explicitely mentions this phenomenon for self-adhesive envelopes.
 
 
grant
18:14 / 18.03.08
Jack: Yeah, that's the feeling I get from that "It was (prepositional) that (something happened)" construction.

I found a reference to the construction in Fowler, talking about relative and conjunction clauses. The sense I'm using the construction is the conjunction clause, and I'm pretty sure it's what Fowler is calling "an artificial perversion":


15. It was in this spring, too, that the plague broke out. C.
16. Accordingly, it was with much concern that I presently received a note informing me of his departure. C.


...


Examples 15 and 16, though quite recognized types, are really artificial perversions. In 15 the true question and answer in the circumstances would be, not, as the sentence falsely implies, 'When did the plague break out?' 'That too happened in this same spring', but 'Were there any other notable events in this spring?' 'Yes: the plague broke out'. Impressiveness is given to the announcement by the fiction that the reader is wondering when the plague broke out; in fact, he is merely waiting for whatever may turn up in the history of this spring. In 16 we go still further: the implied question, 'What were your feelings on receiving a (not the) note...?' could not possibly be asked; the information that alone could prompt it is only given in the 'that' clause.


I still don't know what that "was" is doing there that couldn't be served by moving the whole preposition to the end of the clause. (The plague broke out in this spring.)
 
 
grant
18:30 / 18.03.08
It was orange.

It was in my room.

It was in my room that the monster hid.

The monster hid in my room.

----

I can feel something creaking back there, behind my sinuses and above my neck.
 
 
grant
20:08 / 18.03.08
This is how sick that construction is.

Strunk & White "Elementary Principles of Composition", (in adjacent sections, no less) first uses it as an exemplar of a topic sentence for a paragraph:

1 It was chiefly in the eighteenth century that a very different conception of history grew up. =||= 1 Topic sentence.

But then dismisses it as passive voice:

It was not long before he was very sorry that he had said what he had. =||= He soon repented his words.

Although that second example seems again a little grammatically different.
 
 
grant
20:22 / 18.03.08
On the other hand, this Language Log post has lots to say about how passive voice can be useful (and even recommended in some cases), but also ends with some not-very-nice things to say about Strunk & White, including the phrases "vile little compendium of tripe" and "authoritarian old weasels."
 
 
*
23:28 / 18.03.08
"It was X" is also not passive voice, because it is still in the format of the subject verbing—in this case, being, past tense. "It was being Xed by" or "it had been Xed by" would be passive voice.

The problem you're having with it, I think, is that there is no "it" there. "It" is a placeholder, because the author has decided for whatever reason that they don't want to real subject to be the subject, or to come at the beginning of the sentence, and English doesn't have a good way to do that: "In my house hid the monster" while correct sounds terribly stilted. If you wanted to leave "the monster" till the end of the sentence for dramatic effect, you must replace it with an imaginary subject. "It" in this sense is a pronoun with no antecedent, "it" doesn't really refer to anything—it's a conventional placeholder that lets English speakers screw around with word order.

Not, technically, passive voice, but a very strange use of a pronoun anyway.
 
 
grant
03:01 / 19.03.08
It's the imaginary subject and imaginary verb that upsets me, possibly because some of my first grammar lessons were in diagramming sentences. "It was" is what I read as the primary unit of that construction, when there's no "it" and not really a "was" either. The monster hid in my bedroom.

I think part of my issue is that it feels like what them LL people are calling "hylic voice" - it's a twisted, belly-up construction - without exactly turning a subject into an object.
 
 
*
03:57 / 19.03.08
Q: What did Jeremiah Wright actually say that seems like it's got everyone (white)'s knickers in a knot? I know I should be able to find this on any newsfeed, but for fuck's sake please don't make me wade through the handwringing and tsking I don't think I can take it.
 
  

Page: 1 ... 101102103104105(106)107108109110111... 125

 
  
Add Your Reply