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International Cricket - Winter 2005-6

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11:01 / 29.01.06

I haven't mentioned it in-thread for a few reasons. Firstly, it has already been challenged so I didn't see the need to add my voice. Secondly, I was waiting for astro to respond to the question rather than get in the middle of it myself. Thirdly, because I expected (and still expect) his reply to show that he wasn't intending it as a racial slur, and even though "I didn't mean it like that" isn't much of a defence, I'm willing to accept astro's apology and move on.

I don't expect this thread to exist outside of Barbelith views on hatespeech, but neither do I want it to be used as a battleground for people who aren't involved in the incident. Astro was challenged personally and he should respond personally rather than the rest of us discussing it.

I certainly agree that the term should not be used once one becomes aware of its offensive baggage, but I don't think astro was intending it as an offensive word, nor using it because of Symonds's skin colour. I've heard the word used in Australia to describe white people with dreads.

Anyway, I've pm'd astro and encouraged him to respond so that there need not be any ill feeling in this thread. I don't know him well but I don't recall any evidence of intentional racism on his part, so I would welcome his apology and retraction of the word, and I look forward to having him back in the thread.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:30 / 29.01.06

I don't particularly want this thread to be rotted, either, but I'm uncomfortably aware that "it isn't offensive in Australia" is an argument that has been offered before, and it's not one I think gets very long shrift.. The fact that Astrojax acknowledged that it wasn't a very "PC" term suggest that he does have some idea of the racial component of the term, but decided that this was not a good reason not to call someone a golliwog.

I don't expect this thread to exist outside of Barbelith views on hatespeech, but neither do I want it to be used as a battleground for people who aren't involved in the incident. Astro was challenged personally and he should respond personally rather than the rest of us discussing it.

However, he didn't respond personally. He wandered back into the thread having decided that the upset he had caused, intentionally or not, was not worth the bother of addressing. I'm not sure who "isn't involved", either. There's quite a lot to be said for making it clear in public, in thread, that you find a particular bit of language unacceptable or unwise (if you do, at least) - as otherwise the lone voices may decide that Barbelith is not for them anymore and leave. Personally, I can't think of a person who has left Barbelith because it wasn't tolerant enough of racism whose departure has been much lamented.

Put another way, by wanting to limit it to "people who are involved", you seem to be saying that this is essentially a personal disagreement between GGM and astrojax. As a community, I don't think we should be encouraged to leave these situations for "the minority" to deal with alone, and liking Astrojax is not a good enough reason to give him a free pass.

14:19 / 29.01.06

I agree with all of that and definitely GGM shouldn't have had to be the only person to make the initial challenge to astro. But as the challenge had been made, I didn’t see the need for numerous people to remind him in-thread that he hasn’t responded. I would rather give him the chance to respond properly, which is why I pm'd him encouraging him to do so.

20:04 / 29.01.06

ggm, boboss and all...

well, a few weeks with almost no 'lithing and i return to a thread i also greatly like to find i have caused something of a scuffle. i am deeply sorry to have done this and i was aware, yes, that the term 'golliwog' has conotations and is perjorative and inappropriate in many quarters and i apologise for any offence and for bringing this word into this thread, indeed into barbelith.

as loomis points out (and ta the pm - you have the skills for a healthy career in diplomacy!) this term is also parlance in australia, relating to a hair style (and indeed one can - or until recently could, if one still can't - purchase biscuits [cookies, although i suspect a cricket thread reader would understand biscuit] called 'golliwog') that he sports. but i agree, i should be more sensitive here than to rest on 'it's ok in australia' and so i demur and seek forgiveness.

i accept i was culpable of gross misconduct and i seek your acceptance of my apology and ask that this thread be continued to discuss cricket - i am happy to participate in a conversation elsewhere if any deem it to be required, but i shall be far more attentive to a broader conotation of the language i choose.

i sincerely hope i am not cast as racist for this.

(and to clarify my short comment back on thread a week or so ago, i didn't read up thread having only a moment to flick to the last comments thereto. i should certainly have offered this apology earlier if i'd read back. i am sorry for this, also. i really don't mean to cause a fuss)

Goodness Gracious Meme

21:12 / 29.01.06

Well on the cricket front can I just say 'warrrrrghhhhhhh'. From the best start we could have hoped for, and Pathan finally showing what he can do, we're now 74/4? Wha?

Talk about drama, this is going to be Ganguly's last test, can he save it for us.

Still, after the batmen's holiday of the first matches, good to see what both (she says through gritted teeth) teams can do in terms of bowling attack.

This is looking bloody exciting. And I'm 'watching' it via a web page. GAH.

(rest of the post edited as it mainly consists of me swearing very loudly)

Goodness Gracious Meme

21:23 / 29.01.06

Ok, thankyou astrojax for you apology and your explanation.

I accept both in good faith and accept that you had no desire to cause upset.

I do, in-thread, still want to underline that this isn't for me just a matter of bad manners or mild upset.

Those words are hateful, and speak (in this case indirectly) to me of racist shit that I and people I love have had to deal with, and directly of violence, hatred and inimidation and of histories of racist abuse.

I'd also dispute that it is 'okay' to use these words anywhere, and FWIW can think of many Aussies of my acquaintance who would agree with me.

Golliwog is a term with very recent roots in racist hatespeech. Just because people use it in apparently non-racist ways, doesn't mean it's ok in any context. We may have to agree to disagree about that.

And Loomis, I understand what you are saying about not wanting to 'dog-pile' astrojax, and should indeed have pm'd him to draw attention to this thread.

However, I resent the implication that this is my problem.

I did, when no-one else concurred with my post, wonder if I actually I was the only person who cared about this, and no-one gave a shit that this stuff is profoundly upsetting/offensive.

Not just to me, but that it is per se. Furthermore, on barbelith we've already had the conversations about hate speech and its usage. Hence my query as to whether this thread was separate from those.

I seriously considered backing out of this thread entirely, which as I've said above, would mean backing out of my only main source of cricket chat.

Most of the time, I *love* this thread, it's one of my favourite things about Barbelith. And I have enjoyed talking with *everyone* here about cricket.

Then I decided that even if I was the only person who cared, it was worth raising. And that removing myself from a thread because I found some of the language being used unacceptable was rather a backwards way to look at it.

Responding to this, (and not specifically to astrojax's post, but as much the ongoing context) has made me feel isolated, angry and astonished that I appear to be needing to do this.

Goodness Gracious Meme

21:28 / 29.01.06

Which is to say, a bit of support from other long-standing posters on this thread would have been nice. It's not easy dissenting when you feel like no-body else gives a shit, even if you are pretty convinced that you are right to do so.

Aslo, astro, I don't want to get at you and I don't think that you are a racist, but I do think some of what you've said is a little unexamined. I want to know why, if you were aware that the word 'golliwog' had perjorative meanings, you used it anyway?

22:32 / 29.01.06

I don't understand why "It isn't racist in Australia" is so frequently used as an example of why something should be acceptable. Australia is a notoriously racist country. Is that not widely held knowledge?

Therefore what is considered as not being racist there is probably considered horribly racist in a lot of other places, including Britain.

23:57 / 29.01.06

ggm

thanks for your kind and insightful acceptance of my apology. i am deeply upset that my comment may have driven you from the thread and am profoundly ashamed. thanks for staying long enough for my response to meet you. and i want to back your assertion that this is 'your' problem. my use of the term was universally uncalled for and you are right to pick me up and wrong to feel isolated by your correct action. i remain indebted and hope ganguly can save things for you (without akmal, i think india might be overtaken already!!)

a propos, as a general comment on crikkut, there has been some comment in the press and on recent tv coverage [not that i've caught much - damn being busy in summer!] by former australian captains in oz about the rotation policy in the australian [odi] side. many seem to see it as a poor tactic, one that dimishes the efficacy of the team.

for what it's worth, my take is that if there are 15 or 18 players good enough to get the job done, even if there are qualitatively 'better' players on the bench, then what is the darama? and this tactic gives the squad a depth that will be unrivalled.

in a squeeze say, three 'guns' are out injured; and who do you bring in? well, under this system bring in three players who are proven at level and can get stuck straight in becasue they have had experience. am i missing something: what is the contrary argument?

and btw, the esteemed mr symonds has shown himself a fabulous addition to the squad and may yet prove me wrong about his capacity to make it at test level. wonder if he'll be in the ashes defence squad next (australian) summer??

00:05 / 30.01.06

of course, i meant india might be already overtak*ing* (the pakistani total... they were three for zip - when did that last happen in a test???!!!) silly me

what do you think, ggm [or others], was ganguly's finest innings? how wil his career be remembered?

09:08 / 30.01.06

GGM - However, I resent the implication that this is my problem.

Honestly, I never intended that implication and I’m sorry if you felt I did. As Haus says, racism is the problem of every poster here and the onus should never be on any individual to be the lone voice, so again, apologies that you were in this instance. However, since you had already made the point, I wasn’t keen to add anything in-thread until astro had responded, because I wanted to avoid what we have now, which is people from outside the thread dropping in with their two cents, which brings me to this:

Olulabelle - I don't understand why "It isn't racist in Australia" is so frequently used as an example of why something should be acceptable. Australia is a notoriously racist country. Is that not widely held knowledge?

That’s a charming generalisation you have there (also unhelpful and offensive). Is this “widely held knowledge” from personal experience? And if so, would you care to expand on it and provide examples and proof of this “knowledge”? Because if it isn’t from personal experience then I strongly suggest you avoid such offensive generalisations about a culture and a country that you don’t understand.

Words have different histories in different countries, and the fact that most Australian immigration did not come from Africa or India/Pakistan means that words such as “golliwog” and “p***” have different histories, contexts and meanings to their use in the UK. That doesn’t make them ok to use on Barbelith and I wouldn’t use them in Australia either, knowing what I now know (for instance I had never heard “p***” used perjoratively until I came to the UK). But it does mean that I’m willing to cut someone some slack if they use it once, and accept their apology. And I fully expected to receive one from astro, which we did.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:32 / 30.01.06

I'm not a cricket fan, but I am a moderator of Games and Gameplay, and as such I hope at least somewhat entitled to comment.

As such, I'd like to ask Olulabelle not to respond to Loomis here, if possible - I think that it was unwise to describe Australia as a whole as racist, although the fact that racism in Australia functions in a different way from racism in the UK, say, clearly throws up some issues, and has done before. If we want to explore the question "is Australia particularly racist?", and I imagine a number of our Australian brethren would be happy to discuss this, I'd suggest a thread in the Conversation or the Switchboard, with very careful wording.

Regarding astrojax: I think the exchanges in this thread could actually serve as an example of how one should react to being picked up on offensive terminology, and if I weren't concerned about the thread being pulled offtopic I'd be using it as an example in the "Suggestion" thread currently live in Policy. However, there is a question which I think would actually be very useful in looking at the status of race and language in sport which GGM asked, and which I think deserves an answer, either here or elsewhere, which is:

Aslo, astro, I don't want to get at you and I don't think that you are a racist, but I do think some of what you've said is a little unexamined. I want to know why, if you were aware that the word 'golliwog' had perjorative meanings, you used it anyway?

pace Loomis, it does not seem that this is an example of a term being used without any undestanding that is offensive outside the coastal waters of Australia, but a term being used with some understanding that it is a term used to describe black people in a pejorative sense - a "non-PC" term, if you like. Was this a misunderstanding of how offensive it was, having not seen it used outside Australia, an assumption that sport and sporting nicknames have a degree of privilege, or something else? I don't necessarily think that has to be answered here, but I think it would be useful to see it answered - perhaps by repurposing and retitling this thread, or starting a fresh one.

Goodness Gracious Meme

16:29 / 30.01.06

More later, but I'd just like to thank astrojax for his responses, which are gracious in acknoweldging the problem and responsibility. Thank you.

(I'm assuming you meant want to back your assertion that this ISN'T 'your' problem.

)

Goodness Gracious Meme

16:33 / 30.01.06

On cricket again:

how do I go about canonising Pathan? He's showing more and more as a genuine batting prospect. Good fucking job considering that none of our top order managed to top 50.

growlmumblemumbleswear

11:31 / 31.01.06

Ok. I have just scrapped a longer post and decided to go with this.

GGM, I am sorry you felt isolated and unsupported. My reasons for not getting involved were much the same as Loomis', plus more recently not being online since Friday, plus a few other reasons.

Bigotry is something people feel very strongly about, and their passion and anger is understandable (and the fact that I don't choose to get involved in discussions about it should not be taken as meaning that I don't share some of that strength of feeling). I have, however, mentioned elsewhere that I feel that the reaction to bigotry is disproportionate to the actual problem of bigotry on Barbelith, certainly from my vantage point. That is an observation I don't expect everyone to share.

I come to Barbelith as a distraction from work, work which is pretty stressful and very confrontational. I actually don't choose to come here to get into scraps but to chew the fat, mainly these days about cricket. I have noticed that discussions about bigotry on Barbelith can turn into shitstorms and can result in people getting 'dogpiled'. When I saw this issue developing on this thread I wanted nothing to do with it, to be frank. Again, I apologise if that left GGM feeling isolated and unsupported, and can I just say, that despite my general views, in this particular instance I feel GGM was right to raise the issues she did, and that the discussion did not descend into a shitstorm. Also, well done to Astrojax for a gracious apology.

This thread didn't play out quite how I feared it might.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:30 / 31.01.06

I apologise if that left GGM feeling isolated and unsupported

Thing is, your strategy kind of depends on GGM feeling isolated and unsupported - that is, that she is not supported, feels that her compass of what is acceptable is entirely out of true with the other people on the thread, and either resigns herself to coping with it in silence or leaves the thread. The alternative, that is other people also registering unhappiness, you see as "dogpiling". That's fine as an approach, but it's good to follow through on the implications of your decisions.

Back on cricket, although at a slightly different angle - Zimbabwe's cricketers, through their professional association, appear to be suing Cricket Zimbabwe for non-payment of wages and fees, to the tune of £420,000. Of many interesting and saddening features of this is that they seem to have engaged a human rights lawyer, Beatrice Mtetwa, to prosecute the case. does this mean that this is in part a criticism of Zimbabwe's government, through Cricket Zimbabwe? And, with the organisation and players at loggerheads apparently at every level from the test team down, is there really any hope for Zimbabwean cricket"? Will an entire generation of players lose their chance to compete in a meaningful fashion?

09:52 / 01.02.06

On racism: Personally I'm really tired of bothering with racism. I complain about it and am unable to come to terms with it as I've grown up in Pakistan and only really begun to let it ruin my mood until last year. It seriously upsets me in real life and I face it quite frequently in one form or another. And I don't think there's a pleasant way of saying this but some punter saying "golliwog" on barbelith doesnt bother me especially after someone deals with it very appropriately. I would've dealt maybe a little more angrily if I hadn't read GGM's post right after Astrojax's.
I've been complaining about it and being upset by it these past few weeks a little more and find myself being very close to conclusions about racism where it might just be something else. Probably after encountering it all too frequently. Not to say I have it bad I'm a little sensitive about being judged and treated differently about assumptions based on my religion after people notice the colour of my skin.
This isn't about me but I do feel badly you felt alone in this. Promising to add my voice next time sounds like a hollow promise and I'm wondering making it or fulfilling redeems anything.

And on cricket...

It looked a little too easy. India were outclassed. I did feel yesterday that India could still draw the game if Dravid, Laxman and co dug trenches into pitch the way they have before. Asif really impressed me and I'd like him to be in the side but not at Rana Naveed's expense. Sami's failed to learn the art of taking wickets and hasn't been a justifiable selection in a long time. Splendid team effort, every man scored in the second innings but if it wasnt for Akmal in the first innings where would we be?

Pakistan have claimed the tandoori ashes!

10:38 / 01.02.06

Yes, congratulations to Pakistan. They are looking pretty good - strength in depth in their batting, a genuine quicky with decent back-up in the seam department, a good spinner, an all-rounder who can turn the game on its head in an hour, and Kamran Akmal. I think he is something special. As you say, WW, his 1st innings century was decisive and he fully deserved his man-of-the-match award. Can't really argue with Younis Khan being man-of-the-series, but what a strange series it was? 2 utterly meaningless high-scoring draws that made me realise why 1 day cricket is more popular on the subcontinent, and then the excitement of Karachi. I'm looking forward to seeing Pakistan come to England next summer, and have my ticket for the Saturday of the Oval test already.

I'm surprised India caved-in in quite the way they did. They were always up against it, but I did expect more from the top 4.

11:02 / 01.02.06

Has anyone read any of the reports about South Africa threatening to boycott further tours of Australia due to racist abuse they received while playing recent matches there?

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:44 / 01.02.06

Yep - Cricket South Africa's Chief Exec, Gerald Majola, has said that it would be considered if the racial abuse does not stop. The ICC, meanwhile, has appointed a lawyer to look into these instances, appparently. Cricket Australia has come out as saying that fans using racist abuse shoudl face life bans or heavy fines, but how that actually plays out will be interesting.

13:30 / 01.02.06

I really don't think they could afford to refuse to tour. not only would they lose millions in revenue but would no doubt be fined by the ICC, as they threatened to do to any team that refused to tour Zimbabwe. It could maybe even bankrupt South African Cricket.

Mind you that shows how seriously they take the situation for them to threaten such a serious move. It's good that Australia have made some threats but they don't seem to have done a very good job of ejecting spectators on the spot for making these racist remarks. I know it's not alwayds easy to identify someone in the crowd but you'd like to think the other audience members would help to point them out and get them turfed. Not quite sure how you'd enact a life ban though.

As for Zimbabwe, with every development I've thought it to be the end of their international cricket days, but they've managed to limp on. They've already withdrawn voluntarily from test cricket for a year, but the ICC continue to shame themselves by their lack of concrete action that should have happened long ago.

It's probably better for the individual cricketers to give up hope of playing for their country and seek careers in domestic cricket in other countries, and save themselves the heartache of this whole debacle.

22:42 / 03.02.06

Ok. I've addressed the 'Australia is racist' comment I made in a thread in the Switchboard, as advised by Haus. I hope that's alright.

20:12 / 05.02.06

the aussies tore apart the south africans again - gilchrist being the first but not the only destroyer...

so now the tri-nation series comes down to a battle between sri lanka and last night's losers to see who gets to take on the aussies in the final. a win to the sri lankans will give them hope - they have a better recent result against the aussies at both adelaide and sydney, the finals venues. a win to sth africa will put them in the unenviable position of facing again a team thatr has given them a bit of a hiding in the past couple meetings...

at one stage in the telecast, when gilly and punter were pillaging ten or twelve from many overs, the projection of a final total at that rate was 504! dunno i've seen such a masive projection, even if it is always entirely unrealistic. 344 was a big enough haul by the end...

so question: we seem to have a tri-nations odi series every summer, with the visiting test side and another - we always seem to win and this is no doubt due in at least some small part to home ground advantage. with all the availability of flights and such, would these matches be better played across a couple three countries? mebbe two or three games in each place, then the finals in the two finalist's homes? would this mean anything?? [i suspect not and the home fans are content and cricket australia is content with the revenue...]

13:44 / 06.02.06

I can't see series being split between more than one country. Host countries are alternated so the home advantage always gets spread around. And while it's good to see the Aussies doing well but I'm getting pretty bored of ODIs to be honest. Looking forward to the SA tour. I think the atmosphere there will be pretty intense.

And for those who can't get cricket on the tv, here's a site that will stream live cricket to your pc.

04:32 / 08.02.06

That's a bit much for us impoverished student types but might be legal. As I have suggested earlier if someone like me would rather be economical and use illegal websites feel free to PM me for information.

I'm beginning to feel sorry for Dravid because his captaincy, form and commitment are all excellent but there will be backlash if India return losing both series.

I want Sri Lanka to do form a winning habit and beat Australia. Sorry guys but I want Australia to lose a little more often than an Ashes every two decades ; )

20:22 / 08.02.06

I want Sri Lanka to do form a winning habit and beat Australia. Sorry guys but I want Australia to lose a little more often than an Ashes every two decades ; )

even though i'm aussie through and through, true blue, dinki di, all that... i agree! would certainly like to see the finals at least go to the wire in the third. that said, i'm old enough to recall the gloomy days of the 80s when we were shiite, so a patch of form is tolerable

and i heard on the radio yesterday that graeme thorpe is in nsw as an assistant something but would gladly put his hand up to play state cricket for the blues (nsw). why haven't we seen more foreign players in australian domestic cricket? and should this competition be doing something to encourage disenfranchised zimbabwean crickets to have a run over here?

btw love the abc radio sports reports: they still call the domestic trophy 'sheffield shield' [as it was for something like sixty years] rather than its now official name [of the past eight or ten years now?] of the milk brand 'pura cup'. gawd bless 'em!

00:22 / 10.02.06

Yeah the ABC are like that. They'll never call it Telstra Dome either, always Docklands.

I don't see any reason why there aren't more international, speicifcally Zimbabwean, players playing at first class level in Australia. We've had Murray Goodwin playing here in WA for the last few seasons, and he's done fairly well, and if any state side didn't want a Heath Streak in their lineup you'd seriously question why not. Now not every Zimbabwean would be up to first-class level, but the likes of Streak, Goodwin, the Flowers and Taibu would be an injection of talent making the competition even stronger, and a higher level of quality and performance needed from a player before they got their shot at state level than at the moment. Benefits allround.

Funny thing is that I tend to lose interest once the Test matches end and the onedayers start. There's just something about Test's that have become more appealing the older I've gotten that, the ODI's don't have. Warnie for one. Hussey's purple patch of form should continue, his last two innings being great knocks. He's like how Bevan was at the death, except he has more boundry firepower than Bevo ever did, and as a result scores at an even quicker rate than a run a ball.

And he was playing bloody county cricket when the Ashes were on. (sigh)

07:59 / 10.02.06

It will always be the Sheffield Sheild as far as I'm concerned!

I'm not too sure about encouraging overseas players to play in Oz. It hasn't exactly helped England to have overseas players come over and master the conditions. Mind you two players who did well in county cricket (Hussey and Lehmann) weren't picked in the ashes team. Fucking incompetent selectors. They should never have dropped Boof before the ashes.

The odd os player wouldn't hurt in Australia but I wouldn't want too many, and neither would Cricket Australia I suspect.

14:52 / 10.02.06

I want Sri Lanka to do form a winning habit and beat Australia.

Seems you got your wish, WW. Not very good running between the wickets by the Aussies it seems.

I know what you mean about the Sheffield Shield, astrojax, Ben and Loomis. The Pura Cup for some bizarre reason doesn't even sound like a cricket competition. I used to live opposite one of the gates to what some would have us call the Fosters' Oval and could never bring myself to call it that.

O/S players in Oz. They do have them don't they? I seem to remember Ian Botham going over to play for Queensland and punch people on aeroplanes, and Andy Flower did a stint for South Australia not too long ago.

04:04 / 11.02.06

don't tell anyone, but 'yay!" go sri lanka... put us to the sword. i rekkun it'll do us some good. what a load of walking muddled twaddle that lot was from all accounts! good to see clarke back on song - back into the full squad now i rekkun, get him set up to play his heart out and help regain those ashy things we rightfully own..!

a futurist question: white balls in day/night tests? ever? when? red ball in daylight, white for the night? ashes under lights - will we ever see that!

20:40 / 12.02.06

damn, didn't we bat well! everyone who contributed did so to excess... now neither team gets a break - as i understand it, the sri lanka side will now have one day at home before they launch into a tour of bangladesh, and the aussies are shortly off to s.africa to renew battle; neither side was fancying the finals to go to three.

i tip the hosts now...

scheduling is hell, eh? fancy having to take money to do that...

11:56 / 13.02.06

Pretty awful showing from Pakistan other than Razzaq/Asif/Malik. The fielding between the two teams was the real difference because if India had fielded like Pakistan they would've leaked at least twenty runs. I suspected 289 wasn't enough and they had to hold on to their catches to win this one. The batting order changes were another awful idea. If Pakistan don't lift their game they wont be winning the series now because without Shoaib Akhtar the differences between the two sides are thinner.

12:58 / 24.02.06

Vaughan's knee is fucked, Pietersen's got a dodgy back, all of the spinners have the shits, the current warm-up game is not going our way, and the 1st test is a week away. More woe on the subcontinent for England I think.

14:11 / 24.02.06

Yeah it looks like one bit of bad luck after another. WHo do you think is going to get the spinner's spot in the first test?

14:23 / 24.02.06

Blackwell. Has taken some wickets, and by all accounts his batting is streets ahead of Monty Panesar's. I'm not a fan of Udal's. I am actually more interested in India's 17 year old wonderkid Piyush Chawla. I imagine that he won't get a look-in this series. One to watch for the future though.

Any thoughts on Australia in SA? Apparently some fiercely 'partisan' (for want of a better word) crowds are expected.

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