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International Cricket - Winter 2005-6

  
  

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William Sack
11:23 / 24.10.05
The England team flies out to Pakistan tomorrow. There are a couple of warm up matches and then a 3 match test series begins on the 12 November and a 5 match ODI series in early December. Then it’s on to India.

This is an important series for England, being their first since their Ashes victory, and if they are to prove to be the best side in the world then the road to domination starts in the sub-continent. They are also without Simon Jones, who many feel would have been England’s most effective bowler in Pakistani conditions (bone dry outfields scuffing the ball up quickly for some reverse swing, or “cheating” as it used to be called when Waqar and Wasim could do it and we couldn’t.) Otherwise, barring injury, I believe we’ll see 10 familiar faces from the Ashes series lining up for England.

Pakistan certainly have some individuals who will make it difficult for England -Inzaman-ul-Haq on his day bats as well as anyone in the world (but is probably good for a run-out or two), Danish Kaneria is a highly rated leg-spinner, and Shoaib Akhtar is lightening quick – but do they have the team? I can’t say that I know all that much about many of their players – Krug, can you tell us some names to look out for?

On a slightly different note, I have read of Michael Vaughan wanting to “put some smiles on a few faces” and of the Pakistan team getting involved “hands-on” in the earthquake relief operations and I wondered what, if anything, cricket can do to help.
 
 
Krug
14:21 / 25.10.05
Ah...thanks for starting the thread I was going to sooner or later.

Pakistani team after the last two series seem to be proving in the oneday form of the game though the test matches don't go their way as often. They aren't the old remarkably inconsistent and unpredictable side and like England it's a young team (maybe younger).

Shahid Afridi seems to have cemented his place in the one day side and bowls fairly reasonable legspin with a faster ball he throws in that tends to get him wickets (he was a fast bowler before he got into the international side). He's not an intelligent opening batsmen and tries to hit four to five balls every over going for the aerial route. If Afridi stays for ten overs in the pajama game Pakistan tends to win and dominates. As much as I've loved watching KP bat who is more consistent and a better batsman than Afridi but when Afridi's middling them his strokes have more power and he tends to effortlessly hit them further than KP could. That said Afridi's very unreliable.

Shoaib Malik usually bats at #3 and is a very talented young batsman (bowls decent offspin) who has demonstrated that he can build an innings but usually plays his shots and scores quickly.
Yousuf Youhana oops, I mean Muhammad Yousuf as he's now called after converting to Islam, is probably the second best batsman in the side right behind Inzamam and plays some gorgeous drives.
Shoaib Akhtar's inclusion seems highly unlikely at this point because he's a trouble maker, not a team player has problems with Inzamam and the very well liked coach Bob Woolmer. I'd rather see him bowl than Shabbir Ahmad, who looks has an awkward runin and isn't very interesting to see mainly because of his awful looking action. Also last time around everyone was talking about how Akhtar needs to lose weight and be fit. Akhtar rubbished such claims and if I had to believe someone it wouldn't be Akhtar. Akhtar thinks Woolmer knows nothing about fast bowling, Woolmer thinks that's silly and wants to help Akhtar. He thinks Akhtar should shorten his runup because he's 30 and shouldn't have the longest runup right now. I still would like to see him opening hte bowling in both forms of the game and perform as well as he can but we won't know for a few days.

And honestly after watching Warnie in the Ashes, I wonder how interesting it will be to see Kaneria bowl.

I'm not sure if Yasir Hameed a stylish opening batsmen who tends to be in the test side will be selected as Pakistan's had problems having a set opening pair for years. Salman Butt is a lefthanded opening batsman who plays some pretty cut shots and is very strong on the offside often chases the wider ones.

The wicketkeeper Kamram Akmal is a bit like Geraint Jones, can deliver with the bat and has contributed when Pakistan were hurting for runs. His keeping isn't the best but Pakistan are sticking to him because Moin Khan is rather old and isn't as good as a batsman.

Rana Naveed the opening fast bowler who's been very successful and has gotten good swing in recent one day games is a bloke who could be the hardest working cricketer today. He doesn't do very well in test matches but to be fair he hasn't played that many of them.

And of course Inzamam is right up there with Lara and Sachin when he's in form. I don't think England have a batsman of his class but with Vaughan, Strauss, Trescothick, Pietersen I think England may edge out as a more solid batting lineup.

Pakistan could very well beat England in the One day series though it won't be easy but I think England could dominate the test series because Paksitan have a poor test record and have never really been a strong test side. I don't think England will have it easy considering the conditions and how some players haven't been to the subcontinent. The home advantage could make the test series a tough one. I dont think Flintoff has a good record in Pakistan though I should check statistics first.

I don't really care which side wins as long as neither has it easy. Pakistan tend to play shittily early on and then suddenly surprise everyone because everyone considers them "slow starters."

Younis Khan, who I haven't seen as much this year since I got back to watching Cricket but I used to remember him being not very bright and four times out of five chasing the wider one and being an easy picking. Statistics and word of mouth say he's improved and is just as good as Yousuf.

I was disappointed not to have Simon Jones in the final Ashes test and even more disappointed he wont be making the trip. Hopefully he'll make full recovery by February for the Indian tour. I'm excited by James Anderson who I haven't seen since the 2003 World Cup when I rememer he bowled beautifully and embarassed Pakistan. But this time it'll be a bit different. I think he'll be hungry for wickets because when Chris Tremlett recovers and if Anderson doesnt do well he might return to obscurity. I want him to do well.

I think the English bowlers may not be as impressive as they were back home.

England are favourites but I really want a contest as close as the Ashes.
 
 
Krug
14:23 / 25.10.05
I haven't heard anything about the benefit matches but the ECB were graciously cooperative about playing benefit games over there so some should happen. The ICC have made it clear recently they want to help so something should happen.
 
 
William Sack
11:35 / 26.10.05
I think Angus Fraser must have read your post before writing his series preview in the Independent, Krug. He was talking about Pakistan's top-class middle order being given no protection by it's brittle openers. He also mentioned Mohammad Sami as being quick but prone to spraying it around.

Who knows what is going to happen with Shoaib Akhtar. He is the Pakistani player I have been hearing and reading the most about, despite the fact that he has hardly played for a year. Too busy teeing-up his post-cricketing Bollywood career if some stories are to be believed!

Nice assessment of Pakistani teams by Angus Fraser:

One of the attractions of watching Pakistan play cricket is their unpredictability. When they get it right they are a joy to behold. Pakistan's cricketers are amongst the most naturally talented in the world and there is an energy, a passion about their play that few can match.

Yet when they get it wrong they are an absolute shambles. Their lack of coaching - or desire to listen to coaches - and selfish tendencies means their cricket can at times resemble that of a local park side.

Full article here
 
 
Krug
11:54 / 26.10.05
Decent assessment by Fraser but since Pakistan kicked out Akhtar, Bob Woolmer has turned things around when it coems to discipline and fitness levels. Pakistani fast bowlers have not been exciting since Akram and Younis who in my opinion were the best in the world during the early and mid 90s. Akhtar can be when's he in form. Sami bowls too many awful short pitched deliveries and is rightfully punished for them and there's just a lack of control and/or intelligence in his bowling. Gul I haven't seen bowl outside domestic matches so I can't say if he's really any good but its true that Pakistan have as many options as England when it coems to bowlers. Oldtimer leggie Mushtaq Ahmad could make a comeback but I doubt if he'll be as effective as Kaneria. If England had Simon Jones they would be really have a stronger bowling attack but I think the sides are a little more even and England only being favourites because of winning the ashes recently. Pakistan haven't played for a long time now and need the practice so I dont think they'll be performing as well early on. What I think we're forgetting is that Pakistan has mild winters and England won't be dropping from the heat. This is the easiest time for them to play there so I wouldnt worry about acclimatising.
 
 
William Sack
12:04 / 26.10.05
Akram and Younis or Ambrose and Walsh? There's not much in it.

Mushtaq Ahmad might well be a threat, he has regularly taken absolutely stacks of wickets in English county cricket over the last few seasons.
 
 
Krug
13:51 / 26.10.05
Ah it's hard to pick between the two but Younis was my hero when I was a youngin so I might be biased. Ambrose and Walsh didn't have those toebreaking inswinging yorkers which were unforgettable. Windies have been a disappointment. Lara has been my absolute favourite Batsmen since I was a kid and to me he's completely peerless and its sad to see him play in one of the worst international sides for most of his career. I really want a Windies revival and them to do well against the Aussies next month but it seems unlikely. I'll just watch Lara bat and am hungry for an inspired Lara knock.

But that's enough offtopic wankery.

Mushtaq's success at county level earned him a callup a couple of years ago against SA. I saw him bowl he wasn't very effective. He might not even be picked because Pakistan has too many pacemen they want to play and its been said they'll rely on Afridi to back up Kaneria. I think if Afridi and Kaneria do well, Mushtaq would be a redunancy and you have hungry fast bowlers like Rana Naveed, Umar Gul who's itching to bowl after a long return, Akhtar who the public is split on, the board isn't keen on and Shabbir who was reported for suspect action in Windies but was cleared. The selectors like Shabbir, Umar Gul and Rana Naveed. Surely they can't play three pacemen and two spinners because none of them have any batting in them.

My Pakistani test team would be...

Yasir Hameed
Shoaib Malik
Kamran Akmal (Wicket Keeper)
Younis Khan
Muhammad Yousuf
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Abdul Razzaq
Shahid Afridi
Shoaib Akhtar
Rana Naveed
Danish Kaneria

If Akhtar doesn't make the cut I'd go for Umar Gul.

With this squad they have Rana Naveed, Akhtar as two strike bowlers, Razzaq the all rounder who's like Collingwood only with a little more pace. Kaneria is the primary spinner with Malik and Afridi providing spin assistance.

I think there really isnt any room for Mushtaq. Or even Arshad Khan the offspinner who tends to play when Kaneria isn't available or other fast bowlers like Rao Iftihkar as they already need to pick two from Gul, Naveed, Sami, Akhtar, Shabbir.

Cant wait to see the squads which should be in a week.
 
 
astrojax69
05:21 / 27.10.05
after his side won the ashes [sob] vaughan was humble enough to declare that the australians were still the dominant test side in the world; and i think this attitude was motivated by his having yet to take a team to a tour series win on the subcontinent, never an easy assignment.

australia did it recently, so vaughan will wait til england trounces the pakistanis, as i think they will, before clucking so loudly. my estimation is a solid series win for the visitors, unless the unpredictable pakistanis can get eleven men on the same wavelength, and get some runs from their top order... hmmm

meanwhile, we will be having a windies picnic then a serth effrikan banquet this downunda summer.
 
 
Loomis
09:28 / 27.10.05
Yes away series are the real test, especially the subcontinent. But as Krug says, the condtions won't be so harsh in Pakistan. I reckon touring India is the ultimate challenge, as Australia found. We got there in the end though!

I agree with the assessments above. Pakistan may well snag a couple of ODIs but in test cricket the better (or more balanced) team usually wins. This is a good opportunity for England to solidify their lineup, as they've set off with basically the same exact team who won the ashes. They'll be able to work on their partnerships and get to know their places in the team that much better to propel them into 2006.

I expect Kaneria to be the danger man. He was very impressive when they toured Australia last year despite the team doing very poorly. And I was not entirely convinced by the way the English batsmen handled spin during the ashes (ODIs as well).
 
 
William Sack
11:52 / 27.10.05
And I was not entirely convinced by the way the English batsmen handled spin during the ashes (ODIs as well).

Oh, I dunno; I thought they played Katich quite well.

I think that spin is something identified as a potential problem, both in terms of Pakistan having gifted spinners, and the pitches being spin friendly. I read somewhere that the team was even thinking of taking Merlin to Pakistan with them. But England have the King of Spain, Shaun Udal and Alex Loudon (possibly in line to be the poshest person to play for England since Pelham Warner.)
 
 
Loomis
11:56 / 27.10.05
hahaha! That's mean! Poor Kato. One of our strengths used to be our second string slow bowlers like Lehmann, Clarke and Katich. Now Lehmann is gone, Clarke probably won't be able to bowl anymore because of his back, and Katich was atrocious in England. Now we've taken to reffering to our second string bowlers as allrounders, like that Watson bloke. Where did it all go wrong?
 
 
Loomis
12:37 / 27.10.05
Well the Aussies have selected their 12 man squad for the first test against the Windies next week. It’s the same as for the super series (ie with MacGill partnering Warne and Watson as all rounder), plus Nathan Bracken as twelfth man. It’s an interesting move and means Hodge gets pushed further out of the running, along with Hussey. My guess is that MacGill will miss out as usual, although I think he’s proven himself enough that it doesn’t necessarily need to be a spin-friendly wicket for the two best leg-spinners in the world to do well. No doubt MacGill has been saying this his whole career. Plus we can afford to play with our selection a bit during this series as the pressure is off after an intense Ashes series.

There have been some excellent batting performances in the first round of state matches. Poor Lehmann who should have been in the Ashes squad spanked 159, and Clarke and Katich scored 178 and 144 respectively in their first dig, so I don’t expect them to be making way for Hussey or Hodge just yet.

I may be jinxing myself here (see early posts in the Ashes thread) but I expect the Windies to get beaten pretty easily. They’re still a long way from the road back to greatness. However I generally enjoy watching them play and am looking forward to seeing their new fast bowlers. They have some grit in their batting as well: Gayle, Sarwan and Chanderpaul can all stand firm when the occasion demands it, and some occasional brilliance from Lara could see them putting on some big scores. It’s a shame Hinds is out with a buggered finger. I am constantly expecting him to come good, though it may never happen.
 
 
William Sack
12:49 / 27.10.05
plus Nathan Bracken as twelfth man

To bring on the mints.

Yes, form, even including the Ashes loss, suggests this should be a walk in the park for the Aussies, but there have been some strange contests between these two sides, with Lara generally being at the centre of things.

I read somewhere (possibly an extract from Steve Waugh's auto-biography, I can't remember) that Brian Lara is a good player against average sides, a great player against good ones, and that playing against a great side elevates him to the level of genius.
 
 
astrojax69
21:40 / 27.10.05
yeah, i have heard that line about lara and it rings pretty true! the windies have their first day at the crease to set themselves for next week's onslaught - not much prep time, but the queenslanders should give them a good hit-out, with watson also a chance to shine; he is in the test team again.

interesting for the selectors to show such faith in him. are we seeing a new generation of selectors in australia, moving away from the era where it was harder to get out of the test side than in...?

[by the way, i also send sincere apologies to any and all who may have taken or perceived some offence in my having shortened the pakistani's name in a post above - i am grateful to loomis for having reminded me of the perjorative aspect of this form in some quarters. i blame australian society! but i am humbled by the reminder and ask forgiveness. the matter has since been addressed by moderators cheers]
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:42 / 27.10.05
t Brian Lara is a good player against average sides, a great player against good ones, and that playing against a great side elevates him to the level of genius.

Absolutely. He is astonishingly talented/technically skilled, but to me has always missed something, I'm not sure what, but maybe something pragmatic, in that he only seems to be able to play well when he's excited, which tends to be against exciting teams/in close matches.

Still, looking forward to this almost as much as England/Pakistan, mainly because I think a couple of young WI players may emerge surprisingly during the test.

Although with Eng/Pak, I'm also hoping for it to be closer than I'm expecting. Partly due to home advantage, I think the home/away adv might make a great deal of difference to both teams.
 
 
Krug
05:41 / 28.10.05
Looks like Razzaq is out the first Test.

Link to cricinfo

A blow to Pakistan really he's the closest thing they have to a genuine all rounder.
 
 
William Sack
11:46 / 28.10.05
I have seen Razzaq play, he's a useful performer and will be missed if the team has a long tail. I guess that Afridi qualifies as an all-rounder, but not a desperately reliable one. Have been reading some of the Cricinfo player profiles of some of the Pakistani players you mentioned Krug; apparently Shahid Afridi has "the firmest handshake in international cricket."

I didn't quite get the Lara quote quite right, but it was an extract from Steve Waugh's autobiography. It seems that Waugh and Lara had a couple of on-field bust-ups which Waugh suspects Lara deliberately engineered to gee himself up and give himself a cause. The arguments stayed on the pitch though - ""By the time a smooth Cockspur and Coke slid down our parched throats, Brian and I were hugging each other, exchanging shirts and telling each other how good we were." Anyone up for a Waugh/Lara slash thread?
 
 
Loomis
11:49 / 28.10.05
Now that would be a very barbelithifying of cricket. I'm looking forward to his book. Sounds like there'll be a lot of behind the scenes stuff and Waugh's honest opinion on players and issues.
 
 
William Sack
11:56 / 28.10.05
Yes, I imagine it will be incredibly interesting, but it's 800 pages long, and completely unghosted. If the writing is like my quote above then it might be difficult to wade through the whole lot.
 
 
Loomis
13:47 / 28.10.05
Very true. To ghost or not to ghost, that is the question. But if there is one sportsperson for whom it's worth wading through shit to find the nuggets of gold, then for me SR Waugh is the one. I'm dying to hear his candid opinions on the last decade of Aussie cricket, and if I have to put up with some sporting cliches and blow by blow accounts, then so be it.
 
 
Krug
08:58 / 29.10.05
/apparently Shahid Afridi has "the firmest handshake in international cricket."/

A bit of trivia...

Afridi is a family name from a certain sort of northwestern pakistanis who are often aggressive, mostly have the strength of six men and supposedly more often than not, not very bright.

Most jokes that go around other parts of pakistan are always about how stupid they are. And amongst homophobic schoolboys, how they even with lovely wives are completely queer and are more interseted in their lovely wives' younger brothers. (Quote, "Oh she's so pretty I can only imagine how beautiful her kid brother is). Afridi is by all accounts the strongest man in cricket and is alien to reasoning, patience which is why he bats the way he bats.

-

And in other news Pakistani Selectors just announced their sixteen man squad but only for the first test. The squad favours spinners over pacemen and leaves out Umar Gul and includes Mushtaq Ahmad and strangely enough Arshad Khan (lowsy offspinner who's had plenty of chances over the years but never proved himself worthy of the occasional inclusion).

Pakistan squad Inzamam-ul-Haq (capt), Arshad Khan, Asim Kamal, Danish Kaneria, Hassan Raza, Kamran Akmal (wk), Mohammad Sami, Mohammad Yousuf, Mushtaq Ahmed, Rana Naved-ul-Hasan, Salman Butt, Shabbir Ahmed, Shahid Afridi, Shoaib Akhtar, Shoaib Malik, Younis Khan.

Cricinfo journalists point out obvious problems which I won't repeat here.

For those who dont know some of those names, Hasan Raza is one of those Graeme Hicks of Pakistani cricket who pile on the runs in domestic cricket for years but when given a chance fail poorly on the internationl scene.

I think he was something like fifteen when he first showed up and I feel that he's been around forever but he's still a young lad.

Asim Kamal is supposedly the only "real" test cricketer Pakistan has had since the likes of Zaheer Abbas and Javed Miandad. But only because he tends to be more patient and is more interested in occupying the crease not because of talent or skill. He seems to have talent and promise but he's no Zaheer Abbas or Javed Miandad. I haven't seen him play myself but have heard other talk about him.

Since they're going to test out Shoaib Malik as an opener and Salman Butt is the only specialist opener in the side, those two have their place. Yousuf and Younis are the spine of the batting and obviously have their place. Throw in Inzamam, Kamran Akmal, Kaneria you have seven who are already in the final eleven. That's five batsmen, a keeper and a spinner.
The sixth batsman will either be Hasan Raza or Asim Kamal or Afridi. Afridi may win because he's a pretty reliable backup legspinner who takes wickets. Now they need at least two fast bowlers who are either going to be picked out of Sami, Shabbir, Rana and Akhtar. The sixteen favour spinners over pacemen so I doubt they'll go for three fast bowlers. The last slot is going to be between Mushtaq and Arshad. And it looks as if Mushtaq will make it.

So it's

Shoaib Malik
Salman Butt
Younis Khan
Muhammad Yousuf
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Afridi/Hasan Raza/Asim Kamal
Kamran Akmal
Akhtar/Sami
Shabbir/Naveed
Danish Kaneria
Mushtaq/Arshad/very unlikey but a third fast bowler instead of two?

Not the side I would've picked as I wouldn't consider the english amateurs who can't play spin just because Shane Warne troubles them but as stupid as it sounds who knows it might just work.

-

As for the english I'd say ten have already picked themselves because of their Ashes win and I would replace James Anderson over Simon Jones instead of Paul Collingwood.
 
 
Loomis
09:58 / 31.10.05
Not the side I would've picked as I wouldn't consider the english amateurs who can't play spin just because Shane Warne troubles them but as stupid as it sounds who knows it might just work.

Not just against the Baron of Baked Beans. Hogg was quite successful against England in the ODIs, and he's not up to much really imho.

The test batsmen in the England XI had a bit of a shocker against the Patron's XI in Pakistan. Only Tresco stood tall.

In Aussie news, I'm excited that Mike Hussey might get to play in place of an injured Justin Langer in the first test against the Windies this week. (Langer also wins the award for dinky di Aussie quote of the week: "I'm not trying to be a hero but it's only pain, mate.") It'd be a shame if Langer misses out, but Hussey is long overdue a guernsey in the test side so I hope it happens for him. The Windies had a good warm up against Queensland but by all accounts there is a lot more life in the Gabba pitch than the one they played on. Plus all the bowlers in the Australian team are NSW players. In fact most of the team is. Poor NSW are going to be full of holes in their next state game without their internationals.
 
 
William Sack
11:48 / 31.10.05
Yes, a pretty piss poor start for England. Decent recovery though with Trescothick and Prior putting on 120-odd.

Krug, love the stuff about the strong but dim north-westerners. The late groundsman of the club I used to play for had a wonderful turn of phrase, and he used to refer to that type (usually brawny but not brainy fast bowlers) as having "3 pairs of bollocks and a wooden head."
 
 
William Sack
11:27 / 01.11.05
Oh dear. Seems like the England top order are playing it for laughs. Nothing I have read suggests that the pitch is playing up, it's just a bit slow, so it looks as though it's bad batting. It also looks as though Hussey is a definite for the Aussies, which will no doubt please Loomis.

In more important cricketing news, I have today bought my ticket for the Saturday of the Oval test against Pakistan next summer.
 
 
Krug
17:53 / 03.11.05
Pakistani fans found hope in England's awful batting in the tour game thinking Pakistan will humble the English. I on the other hand kept repeating that they still won by 52 runs which isn't bad for a low scoring game even if they were up against nohopers. It's still a tour game.

Shoaib might still make the final xi. I hope he does and doesn't fuck it up.
 
 
Krug
15:06 / 06.11.05
England batted poorly again against the Pakistan A which had third stringer bowling attack.

Pakistan A had two wickets remaining and led by 1 run at the end of the day's play. I'm beginning to think (esp if England lose the tour opener) that they may not do very well in Multan.
 
 
William Sack
14:03 / 08.11.05
It looks as though England will go into the first test without their captain, with only one batsman in form, and with an embarrassing defeat under their belt. I think losing Vaughan is perhaps the most serious loss; his captaincy has been both astute and inspirational and even when his batting form has not been good he still manages to *look* a class act. Not panicking here, but not at all happy...
 
 
Krug
16:58 / 08.11.05
That's very true I think Vaughan is often in the team as captain not as batsman because he hasn't had a very good 2005 and the streaks of poor scores made you wonder if he would've been in the side if it wasn't for his captaincy and results.

On paper this Pakistani A side should only really have given Bangladesh a hard time because there was one man in the side that made it in the national 16 and honestly it's his thirtieth recall so no excuse for England to lose this. It's embarassing and suddenly from being favourites they'll be going to Multan with Pakistan as favourites them under pressure and serious pressure if Trescothick is leading the side.

The first win wasn't convincing and while this loss dosen't make me think they've lost it but they need to try harder if they want to dominate in the subcontinent.
 
 
Krug
17:02 / 08.11.05
And in other news West Indies are really a shit team and I'm beginning to think ten years of expecting them to be a better side should've been enough for me to be more realistic when it comes to their results and performances.

C'mon Lara save the team singlehandedly if only for one match.
 
 
astrojax69
20:38 / 08.11.05
sorry to say krug, but i don't think lara is capable now of saving a side single-handedly; especially not against a formidable opponent such as the aussies (or the poms) in fact, i think the new young guns in the pace attack have more of a chance, but they, like any paceman (as brett lee testifies) will take time to mature. although the 'keeper is impressive and has a big future, methinks... so, by 2010..??

the second test in tasmania this week should be a foregone conclusion, only questions like 'can michael clarke get some form back' and so on will be answered.
 
 
Krug
00:55 / 09.11.05
Yes but I'll dream of many fine Lara innings before he retires which I think may be sooner than we expect.

Lara has been a bit unfortunate that he's spent his career playing in a very mediocre at best side. Imagine if Shane Warne played for Zimbabwe. Which brings me to a question. How much do great cricketers owe to the quality of the team they play in?
 
 
Krug
18:08 / 10.11.05
So Vaughan's out of the first test. It's uncertain when he'll recover. But Trescothick's leading the side. Between this and England's loss to the A team the balance of "favourites" seems to have shifted. But that's pointless, what matters is who performs tomorrow. Alastair Cook's probably going to play.
 
 
astrojax69
19:23 / 10.11.05
How much do great cricketers owe to the quality of the team they play in?

i suspect a great deal - but if a zimbabwean [for instance] was genuinely a top world class cricketer he would likely be playing in the counties, or in the sth african leagues ('s funny that the australian domestic cricket has never really taken on any foreign contingents...) and grow as a player for this exposure.

the capacity to reach towards your potential in almost any endeavour is usually greatly assisted by exposure to the rigours of the toughest tests game after game and no doubt helped immesurably by the level of coaching available to the elite teams and the day to day training and working with like peers. it is tough being great in an environment with no challenges - it is overcoming these challenges that inspires champions.


vaughan out shouldn't really be a blow for a team that took australia apart, but life and cricket is very different on the subcontinent, as australia knows too well. our series victory against india over there was a real test of character for the aussie team and gave them the mantle of 'world's best' in a real sense. england must demolish pakistan if they are to claim any equal footing in stature with australia; then come here next year and win tests, if not the series, against us to claim the no. 1 spot. time will tell.
 
 
William Sack
09:44 / 11.11.05
Zimbabwe had a genuinely great player in the shape of Andy Flower who has a test average of about 52, which, for a 'keeper batsman puts him among the ranks of the greats. He plays county cricket for Essex now and I believe he has in fact done a stint in Oz. [name-dropping] I also played in the same team as him for a year when he was my old club's professional back in ooh, 1989ish. I like to think he grew as a player for this exposure to me!

Good points Astrojax. I think the only thing I can add is that I think it is easier to be the lone great batsman in a poor side than the lone bowler. Lara is closing in on Allan Border's test record and he has played much of his test cricket for a poor side. A bowler does need the back up of good fielders and also bowlers to maintain the pressure at the other end. It is possible for the opposition to concentrate on keeping out a good bowler and scoring runs at the other end. I guess what I am saying is that Richard Hadlee would probably have taken even more wickets if it hadn't been Jeremy Coney or Martin Sneddon at the other end.

I think Vaughan's loss will be felt quite keenly. Obviously much tactical input comes from the management and Trescothick will be talking a great deal to Fletcher and to Vaughan during breaks in play, but he has to implement it on the field. Things can run away from the side quite quickly. I also think that a middle order of Bell, Pietersen and Collingwood is looking rather brittle. They have about 15 test caps between them and Collingwood is the only one showing any sort of form. Australia's middle order, on the other hand, is looking a million dollars with Brad Hodge spanking a big ton against the Windies.
 
 
Krug
19:11 / 11.11.05
Good post Astro.

Haha Cash obviously it was you.

I'm not sure if Collingwood is the one with the form to be honest. He isn't a performer at test level, he didn't make any contributions in the last ashes test or in the tour games. Thing with the Englishmen is as we've seen this summer is that they all tend to chip in one way or the other across a series. While the flintoffs and pietersens are the men of the matches, it's blokes like Simon Jones, Ashley Giles, Matthew Hoggard who contribute just as much, Giles tend to add some very needy runs when the middle order fails.
You can't pick a better side out of the two at the moment, Pakistan's top order looks frail while England's middle order appears similar. Pakistani pitches tend to favour Giles and it's impossible to say if Udal will click. English seamers dont do well and Pakistanis only fare marginally better. Both teams will have trouble picking the best xi out of the options and I think there's no place for Jimmy Anderson in the final xi for the first test unless harmie or hoggie get the flu or something.
 
  

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