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Bush, that sick fuck...

 
  

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w1rebaby
20:53 / 06.09.05
Bush vs Not-Bush - the difference between being voting to be shot with a .45 vs with a .22. Both bad but you'd be a fool to prefer the former.

Incidentally, fuck the Libertarians. They could have really been a help in the last election, being as they are associated with those elements of the US right wing that aren't motivated by "family-friendly" policies, they could have helped fight Bush from a different front, but no, in general they just couldn't bring themselves to support "welfare" either. Their voice against the lies was noticeably muted in case Kerry got in and "socialism" got a hold. Be serious. Like there's no government pork with the Bush administration. The movement as a whole turned into a bunch of corporation-hugging crypto-Republicans.
 
 
erisian
20:57 / 06.09.05
Lo and behold barbelith, the fundamental difference between libertarians and republicans, about the same size as a strand of human hair.

I really, truly, honestly hope that was sarcasm.

Well, that's what I was going to go with, Nina; try to explain why it's not a good idea to equate examples of how my beliefs work with the entirety of my beliefs.

I made a very smart choice to go back and read some of the essentially rabid things you put up earlier in this thread, though, and all I can really say is that if you aren't going to take the time to actual think about what you're saying about me and my beliefs, I'd appreciate you not commenting on them. I really doubt that'll stop you, though.

To put it another way: you obviously have a very concise idea of how I should think. Awesome! Good for you! It is, however, entirely wrong. You're not automatically smarter or more right than me, or anyone else, even someone who happens to root for the Yankees, or voted for Bush.

Shifting gears, have any of you guys ever wondered how many possible rewarding relationships (I mean in the basic 'form of interaction' definition of the word) you might've spoiled by being so vehement in your rightness? Where do you think it comes from, this need to have people agree with what you say?

For example: you can call Bush a killer. It's entirely within your rights and abilities. But, I mean, until the dude's on TV uppercutting a guys head off or something, it's basically conjecture. Even aside from the whole "he's just a figurehead" argument, there's the fact that he's distanced from things that have happened under his power. When things happen distantly from you... your perspective changes, and hard choices become much easier, for better or worse.

Edit: That part is less clear than I wanted. What I am saying is: why do people automatically look at what Bush has done and call him a murderer and want to spit on his face? Would you kick Donald Rumsfeld in the balls? (bad example, who wouldn't) But, still, at what point does the accountability stop? Who do you hold responsible for what actions? And are you all sure you know enough about what happened behind the scenes that you know WHO to crucify?

Why is it things like empathy and understanding fly out the door in the face of things like politics and sports? What is it about 'teams' that make people so violently angry?

Second edit: Fridgemagnet, you posted while i was originally typing this. All I want to add is, why should the Libertarian party help 'you' with anything if you believe in something that runs entirely contrary to what they believe in? Wellfare is shite. Why should you set up a program where everyone gives money to some people who then divide it up and give it to the people they think need it? Are you somehow incapable of deciding who deserves your charity, or are you just too lazy to do it yourself, or what? (laziness comment added for effect, not accusation).
 
 
w1rebaby
21:05 / 06.09.05
You seem to be suggesting that posts on this board are (or should be) an education or conversion exercise, rather than a display of rage and anger and hatred for something perceived to be intrinsically wrong.
 
 
Char Aina
21:06 / 06.09.05
I'd definately say that, to my mind, the two major choices both looked equally unappealing.

i'd go with "pretty close to equally", but i definietly dont agree with the idea that they are the same.
fridge makes a good point on that score.

Maybe when YOU see a dirty, smelly, crazed-look-in-the-eyes desert hermit giving warnings (the image I presented in a spirit of fun) you think he's being patronizing and insulting and liken him to an evangelical preacher. I wouldn't; I'd give him a lot more credit, but hell, that's just the way I am with the homeless insane. Maybe I'm crazy too.
hm.
point was the use of USED TO THINK LIKE YOU language, not your stereotype of homeless wise man, hey.


My own use of inflammatory language.

oh, right.
i thought inflamatory usually inferred exaggeration, not complete innacuracy.
my bad.
 
 
Char Aina
21:09 / 06.09.05
When things happen distantly from you... your perspective changes, and hard choices become much easier, for better or worse.

they do indeed.
see almost every atrocity committed in the name of god or country ever.
does that make the leader less culpable, then?
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
21:11 / 06.09.05
The 'lesser of two evils' stance is somewhat dependant on where you're standing though. I suspect that very little difference would have been made to the situation on the ground in Palestine for example, no matter who got in.

The real longterm aim has got to be to challenge the current corporate two party dominance of the US electoral system, so progressives actually have a real choice.

And I'm not sure that unconditionally supporting the Democrats at election time, no matter what their policies, brings that goal any closer.
 
 
erisian
21:13 / 06.09.05
OK, so I have an edit pending my first post that adds a couple paragraphs, one to reply to fridge and one to clarify what was already in there. So, those will show up when they show up.

To continue, let me ask another question: I am not gay, and I am not a pregnant woman. It is very unlikely I will ever get a woman pregnant with a baby I don't want, seeing as how I am both careful and willing to raise a kid (even by myself, if the mom doesn't want the poor bastard).

Why shouldn't I rank (video game) censorship, and censorship in general, as more important than abortion rights and gay rights? I don't give a flying fuck if two men or women can get married. Can they legally have sex? Pretty much everywhere at this point, right? Then what more is needed? Marriage is a steaming pile of shit anyhow, as far as I can tell.

I don't care about dead Iraqis; no, that's not true. But I do care about them less than I care about the Libertarian party eventually getting legitimate third-party rights, and one way they'll get that is with more people voting for Libertarian representation. Besides, my vote for President didn't even fucking matter, because my state TOTALLY went Kerry! Hell, my state's voting record made it BASICALLY a foregone conclusion.

So, there are a bunch of people telling me that my party is wrong because they didn't help get Bush out of office, and because we don't support wellfare, and because I don't care about gay rights: well, why should we?

I don't HAVE to agree with you. LOTS of people don't agree that homosexuals should be allowed to marry; hell, lots of them think it's IMMORAL! Personally, I just don't care.

Which would you rather have, the .45 or the .22?
 
 
Char Aina
21:13 / 06.09.05
oh, and gay/reproductive rights dont matter because you're straight and male?
wuh?
when they came for the women and the gayers i did not speak out because i was not a woman or a gayer?
are you serious?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
21:14 / 06.09.05
Before we get on the "Let's beat Bush supporters with a stick" train...

If I didn't read the news and follow it obsessively, I would be tempted to think that Bush is a pretty decent guy until recently. His handlers are brilliant, his ads were much better than the other guy's, and he comes across as a good ol' boy, never meanin' no harm. Back during the 2000 election, I didn't care for him, but he seemed lighter and more compassionate than the other people in his party. I knew nothing about his record in Texas (and one of my friends in Texas said he wasn't half bad as a governor), so when he won, I remember thinking that it could have been far worse.

Most people are busy with their lives, and have too much to do to follow the news, which is why the problems in Iraq and what happened in New Orleans has shook things up. Reporters are asking some tough questions, it took them a week to get the political team on it, and people who don't get to flop down and relax until 9 or 10 and night finaly saw what we've seen all along.

So...I have sympathy for those who are starting to see the light. Come here, I'll give you a hug and explain what a theory is, because you really haven't been filled in on that either.
 
 
MJ-12
21:16 / 06.09.05
For example, if Gore had been elected president with that jackass Leibermann as his vice, can you even fathom the amount of videogame censorship laws that'd probably be enacted at this point?

I must be reading this wrong...
 
 
w1rebaby
21:17 / 06.09.05
Second edit: Fridgemagnet, you posted while i was originally typing this. All I want to add is, why should the Libertarian party help 'you' with anything if you believe in something that runs entirely contrary to what they believe in? Wellfare is shite. Why should you set up a program where everyone gives money to some people who then divide it up and give it to the people they think need it? Are you somehow incapable of deciding who deserves your charity, or are you just too lazy to do it yourself, or what? (laziness comment added for effect, not accusation).

I don't expect the Libertarian party to help me. I'm not particularly important. But if they can't see that getting rid of a president who supports armed colonialism, the religious right, "free speech zones" and all the other things that I know that Libertarians are aware of is more important than a tiny change in the way welfare works - and let's fact it, the Democrats are just led by a different lobby group, they're not actually ideologically different to the Republicans apart from not having the Straussian element - they're dumb as rocks. It's an unalloyed step backwards and anybody should be able to see that.
 
 
erisian
21:21 / 06.09.05
OK, fridge, then let me ask you this: what helps the Libertarian party more, getting someone other than Bush in office or having people vote Libertarian?

Or, let me put it this way; why didn't the Democratic party tell everyone to vote Libertarian?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:22 / 06.09.05
152 executions during his time as Governor of Texas. 152 pieces of paper consigning someone to death, rumoured to have been signed after reading about the individual cases for 30 minutes each on average. 1891 US troops killed in the Iraq war.

I am in a relationship with a man, I am not a homosexual man but I care more about the equal rights of gay men to marry than labels on CDs. Does this mean you have to agree with me? No. Does it mean that I don't think it's selfish for anyone to care more about something that I perceive as minor in comparison to equality, no. Do I think that your position is right? Of course I don't, you basically stated that you prioritise minor censorship issues above the fundamental right within society to bond yourself legally to another person no matter the nature of your relationship with another consenting human being. In addition you don't care about the rights of women because you're not female, or rather you care less about them than something directly related to you. I find that position far more self absorbed than anything I've said here, my opinion of Bush is based entirely on the injustices that I feel he pushes for or perpetrates.

Finally I haven't said anything rabid to you. All of my comments have been about electing George W. Bush and directed to Ender and Slim, I've only said one thing in reference to you in this thread and it was a general comment about the similarity I perceived between what you said and any conservative would say.

In addition do I think people who voted for Bush are stupider than me? Yes, I really do. I think that the people who voted for Bush were morons or possibly having a brainflush. I have friends who are hardcore conservatives who wouldn't have voted for him (incidentally we argue about politics and come to stalemate everytime, agree that our views are logical, disagree on how far people should be helped. I think they're selfish, they think I'm a soft touch and it's an accepted element of our relationships). They wouldn't vote for him because they thought he was dangerous economically, whichever way you looked at it he was a bad choice and I believe that people voted for him out of blind faith. That's why they were stupid, they put the future of their country in his hands without examining the plain facts whether they were social, economic or based on more emotive issues.
 
 
w1rebaby
21:25 / 06.09.05
So, there are a bunch of people telling me that my party is wrong because they didn't help get Bush out of office, and because we don't support wellfare, and because I don't care about gay rights: well, why should we?

Because your concerns about what game you might be able to buy in Walmart (you might even have to go around the corner and support an independent games shop) don't really outweigh other people's realities of being told they can't live in white neighbourhoods, or eat because their parents were poor and they had shit education, or being treated like second-class citizens because of their orientation, or being cluster-bombed and shot by snipers and death squads and bandits because they lived in a country that had oil and strategic positioning in the Middle East?

Or would you like to argue that they do?
 
 
Char Aina
21:26 / 06.09.05
didnt doctor leap have some interesting things to say about charity and the freedom to give as needed?
 
 
alejandrodelloco
21:27 / 06.09.05
Now, my viewpoints stagger drunkenly toward the libertarian, and I personally believe that hating on gays and depriving women of the right to choose is on par with if not worse than censorship. Honsestly. Stuck up turdburglar only worryin' about yourself. That's why you cats ain't goin' nowhere. If someone wants to vote in the interest of white males, they are gonna go all the way and vote Republican. Sheesh.
 
 
Ganesh
21:30 / 06.09.05
LOTS of people don't agree that homosexuals should be allowed to marry; hell, lots of them think it's IMMORAL! Personally, I just don't care.

And LOTS of us who DO care are, unsurprisingly, DISAPPOINTED - even slightly PISSED OFF - that you care less about our rights than about video game censorship.

But hey ho. Welcome to Barbelith.
 
 
erisian
21:32 / 06.09.05
Nina, I didn't say you said anything rabid to me. You admit you said some rabid things, though, so we're both in agreement on that. Moving on...

Up until 4 years ago, I am pretty sure there was nowhere in the world 2 homosexuals could marry. Hell, not too long ago sodomy was illegal in lots of the US, right?

Things are different nowadays. For one thing, in 2001 Holland legalid same sex marriages. Now, Massachussets legalized them as well (if only within it's state borders.) SSMs are also legal in much of Canada, Belgium, and who knows where else. What does this say to me?

Well, there are obviously places in the world that contain many people who agree that it's incredibly important that people of the same sex be able to marry. So important, in fact, that they broke with hundred of years of tradition in order to make it a reality. My response?

Hey, sweet! I'm glad they did something they wanted to do. I feel about it the same way I feel about my friend getting a piercing or deciding to drop out of college. I am glad they made a choice that they think will benefit their life; however, it has very little bearing on mine. I already have my piercing, and will go to college when I feel like it.

Now, I am not about to say: Love America or leave it! What I AM going to say is: there are places in the world FULL of people (or, at least, containing a majority of people) who agree with many of the things you have said you believe in. Why not go there and associate with them? I am earnestly asking your reasons for demanding that other people change their minds and act and think the way you act (or, at the least, why you spend time and energy berating people for the things they believe in) instead of going somewhere and leading a happy life?

Why do you want to change the world, instead of changing YOUR world?
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
21:34 / 06.09.05
You can't compare having a piercing with the right of people to love and marry who they want.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:34 / 06.09.05
So you agree that I'm right then?
 
 
MJ-12
21:36 / 06.09.05
I feel about it the same way I feel about my friend getting a piercing or deciding to drop out of college.

I must be reading this wrong, too...
 
 
Char Aina
21:36 / 06.09.05
Then what more is needed?

um... the right to be treated as equals in the eyes of the law?
like, say, the right to have your possesions transferred to your beau in the event of your death? or the right to give consent in hospital? or the right to stay by their bedside when only family are allowed to?

see, i'm not black.
why the hell should i care if the klan go around burning black people?
 
 
Char Aina
21:37 / 06.09.05
Why do you want to change the world, instead of changing YOUR world?

arent they the same thing?
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
21:38 / 06.09.05
So you agree that I'm right then?

Um, not sure if that's addressed to me or a crossposting?
 
 
Bed Head
21:38 / 06.09.05
there are places in the world FULL of people (or, at least, containing a majority of people) who agree with many of the things you have said you believe in. Why not go there and associate with them? I am earnestly asking your reasons for demanding that other people change their minds and act and think the way you act (or, at the least, why you spend time and energy berating people for the things they believe in) instead of going somewhere and leading a happy life?

It’s sooooo strange, I was just thinking something vaguely similar. It’s a Policy quesh really, but isn’t there any kind of vetting process for fucknuts like this? Some mechanism for detecting fucknuttery and quietly deflecting them to a board they’d be happy on? The internet is surely big enough for everyone to find their proper home.
 
 
w1rebaby
21:39 / 06.09.05
Why do you want to change the world, instead of changing YOUR world?

...many people aren't solipsists?
 
 
erisian
21:42 / 06.09.05
(All uses of you in the following post are non-targetted due to the fact that this is just how I write sometimes)

But we're not talking about every right of a homosexual person. We are talking about one, single, right- the right to marriage. Marriage has been a religious institution for how long? Uh, basically forever?

What, in fact, are the non-religious reasons for having a wedding? An excuse to throw a big party? Getting a pat on the head from the government? What? I just don't see it.

Do you feel marginalized, or somehow inferior, to the rest of the populace because you can't get married? You can, according to the same rules the rest of the country can, which is to say with a person of the opposite sex unless you are in Massachussets or Hawaii. The reason for this is that enough people believe that marriage is a religious institution which will be somehow cheapened by changing it in a way that allows people of the same sex to marry.

What I am trying to explain here is that if homosexuals were being placed in concentration camps, or if it were illegal for homosexuals to move to other countries where they could legally be married, or if they in some way had rights different from other people, I WOULD be helping out with the cause of equal rights.

However, in America, everyone has the right to marry someone of the opposite gender. Saying that everyone has the right to marry the person they love is ridiculous; if it were, every love triangle would have a sitcom ending. It's a fair law, it's just not the kind of fair you like. And I am sorry, but it's just not a major enough point to rouse my bile.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:42 / 06.09.05
See, this has always been my problem with libertarianism in general... it all sounds very nice, and has such a nice name, but it's essentially as selfish as it gets.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:42 / 06.09.05
No it was aimed at Erisian, the gentle backing away from the point indicated to me that he was beginning to regret his words and I should try for cocky arrogance (as if I had a cock).

Some mechanism for detecting fucknuttery and quietly deflecting them to a board they’d be happy on?

We're not allowed to judge people on personality but you know if everyone on the board agreed that we should... I'll just point out that three of the vetters are posting in this thread at the moment.
 
 
Char Aina
21:43 / 06.09.05
I am earnestly asking your reasons for demanding that other people change their minds and act and think the way you act (or, at the least, why you spend time and energy berating people for the things they believe in) instead of going somewhere and leading a happy life?

see, its not the thinking different i mind, its the rights you hold dear impinging on mine i take issue with.

have you read 'on liberty' by JSMill?
you dont have to, but as a libertarian it might be an idea.


(this post reigned in to steer clear of falling foul of godwins law)
 
 
w1rebaby
21:44 / 06.09.05
I just noticed the following and it would be rude not to answer, so I will:

OK, fridge, then let me ask you this: what helps the Libertarian party more, getting someone other than Bush in office or having people vote Libertarian?

Having people vote Libertarian.

Or, let me put it this way; why didn't the Democratic party tell everyone to vote Libertarian?

Because they wanted to win, and gain power.

What you have to consider is - is that justification? Are the interests of the Libertarian party, a party full of people just as much potential autarchs as those of any other, particularly important?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:45 / 06.09.05
What, in fact, are the non-religious reasons for having a wedding? An excuse to throw a big party?

Stepchildren? The right to be their parent, to claim custody if the biological parent died? I think you're missing all the legal implications of marriage in favour of your argument.
 
 
Char Aina
21:47 / 06.09.05
What, in fact, are the non-religious reasons for having a wedding?

the full and thoughtful reading of threads can be a rewarding and illuminating process.

(apologies to the house of tann)
 
 
erisian
21:47 / 06.09.05
like, say, the right to have your possesions transferred to your beau in the event of your death? or the right to give consent in hospital? or the right to stay by their bedside when only family are allowed to?

As for the first one, isn't that what wills are for? The second two are things I hadn't thought of. That does suck, and it'd piss me off if it happened to me. But it doesn't.

I have never in my entire life witnessed any of the homosexual people I've known being discriminated against. MY ENTIRE LIFE. The closest I have come is when my friend Jeremy refers to his uncle as "Aunt Dan". Aside from what I perceived to be idle grumbling, I've never known any of them to seriously complain about the illegality of same sex marriage. Maybe it's just because we're all still young, or maybe it's because they legitimately don't care.

I'm not a solipsist; the world's a big place, though, and there's room for everyone, seriously, to associate with people they want to associate with. What is so selfish about asking why people want to change the way other people think? Isn't it, in fact, MORE selfish to think that it's better to argue, debate, browbeat or embarass other people into agreeing with you?
 
 
w1rebaby
21:48 / 06.09.05
Erisian, if you've not looked at the hundreds of different legal benefits that married couples get over non-married couples, let alone the social benefits, I would suggest that you do so.
 
  

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