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Bush, that sick fuck...

 
  

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Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:21 / 10.09.05
Just trying to address some points that seem to have caused some confusion.

I am not selfish. I don't give a shit about people I don't know...

This would seem to be an awfully specific use of selfish. I presume that the missing sentence that should go between these two for clarity would be something like 'I will help out my friends but I don't give a shit about people I don't know'?

LEAVE THE PEOPLE WHO WON'T LET YOU DO WHAT YOU WANT ALONE!

This doesn't really address the what if I put in my last post, about how the people against gay marriage could soon be in a position where the only way to get out of their sphere of influence is to head for Pluto. You also don't seem to notice that you are consistently putting all the emphasis on the gays to be the ones to give way and to leave. Why is this? Why shouldn't it be those that don't like gay marriage that go away? In fact, as your involvement in this thread came from being pissed off about computer games being censred, isn't it about time that you move to another country where this isn't a problem? Uzbeckistan can be nice around this time of year.

What little I know about 'Libertarianism' is from a couple of minutes on Google. However that seems to pretty much contradict every belief or statement that you've made. Now maybe this is deliberate, as your choice of name suggests, maybe you are making mischief and just winding us up by being a very anti-Libertarian Libertarian. If that's the case then I'd hope you find some more profitable use of your time. If not then perhaps you could start by addressing some of the specific questions people have asked in the last couple of pages and explain how you justify them within your ethical framework. As it is you're coming off as an incredibly illogical person with an ethical framework that doesn't extend much beyond "I'm okay, fuck everyone else".
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:32 / 10.09.05
On the other hand, you appear to be 23 years old so congrats on that...
 
 
Quantum
12:45 / 10.09.05
Don't think you'll get a response from the Leaptarian, he's not been here since page 3. Shame really. I could devil's advocate if you like... can we slander Bush some more?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:18 / 10.09.05
What are you talking about? Erisian posted on the last page...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:21 / 10.09.05
But then he left... again. I love how people who generalise everyone's posts so that they're all saying the same thing are always leaving.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:30 / 10.09.05
Not sure if I'm in a particularly Statist mood today or what, but can I just point out that I find even "proper" Libertarianism to be fairly selfish?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:35 / 10.09.05
Oh, absolutely. The point, I think, is more that Erisian seems mistakenly to believe that his views are represented by the Libertarian party, and more broadly by Libertarian philosophy, which is not the case. I'd probably characterise the main difference as being a sort of evangelical conflict-avoidance, where Erisian's desire to avoid arguments and belief in the unquestionable (but not exclusive) validity of his own ideas is to be extended into every situation. It's actualy a profoundly conservative philosophy, inasmuch as it makes dynamism pretty much impossible - at best, possibly, one finds people whose ideas tally with yours and move into communities together. Compare Leap, who wanted the world to be restructured according to his interest in killing his own food, wearing bracers and fighting with swords.
 
 
Char Aina
13:58 / 10.09.05

There are people in the world saying that marriage is a sacred institution and that, for whatever reason, it should not be extended to same sex couples.

There are also people in the world saying that same sex couples deserve every right opposing sex couples have and that they should be allowed to marry.

Both of these groups are telling the other group that they have to do what the other says.

there is a difference, thoigh.
one group is saying that their beliefs should be used as a sort of template for the rest of their countries beliefs.
they require other people to act in accordance with their interpretation of religious scripture.
the other group wishes to be free of a belief system that is not their own.
i dont see those as equal positions at all; only one group is asking anyone to do as they do.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:12 / 10.09.05
Ah, but the Erisian viewpoint does not accept the possibility that one group might have the power to impose their views on the other, because either has the opporutnity to move somewhere which is sympathetic to their views - the Netherlands, say. Which brings us over to the other issue about marriage, which Erisian was not originally aware of - that it has legal consequences which it is much harder to recreate if one does not have access to the package of rights and connections termed "marriage" - he was getting "wedding" and "marriage" mixed up. However, I don't think his philosophy really copes well with the second, because it relies on lawmakers, who must on some level attempt to broker rights and entitlements between conflicting ideologies and desires. That role can't exist in Erisia - one can only deal with dissent by fragmenting and reforming. If you find out that your partner believes in giving gay men and lesbians the right to marry and you do not, then you split up and each of you joins a community favourable towards your beliefs. That becomes a bit more complex when there is a set of laws applying to both communities, which decide whether one, both or neither will have their belief supported by legislation. So, you have to have no governmnet either, as the idea of mediating between two opposed ideologies cannot be entertained. Therefore, you end up with small groups of people who can have _weddings_ according to their tastes, but whose _marriages_ have no legal meaning outside their community, because there is no longer any real concept of legality.

Erisia is quite a bit like Leaptopia, except with far less emphasis on hand-to-hand combat.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:16 / 10.09.05
The idea that visas may be, at the very least, handy in relocating to a place where your views may be better received also appears to be unheard-of.

You know, the longer this thread goes on, the closer I get to becoming Stalin. Which would really suck, cos I don't suit a 'tache.
 
 
Quantum
14:38 / 10.09.05
'Erisian posted on the last page'
sorry, momentary insanity.

It's funny how often people who are reasonable and cogent IRL (I suspect, if Leap is anything to go by) come to Barbelith and get caught up in a huge argument where they're made to look silly because of the implications of their views, which seem reasonable when they're talking to their friends.
 
 
Mazarine
14:48 / 10.09.05
Me neither.
 
 
Mazarine
14:49 / 10.09.05
Damn, that was supposed to be a reply to Stoatie, not Quantum.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:50 / 10.09.05
Not so much the implications as the will to follow them. Whereas if you said in the pub, "of course, the slappers on benefits would starve in my utopia, which would be nobody's fault but their own", your drinking buddies are more likely to take a sip of their organic ale, which they are drinking in moderation in order to maintain their dignity annd live within their means, and hold their tongues to avoid a fracas, whereas Barbelith doesn't have those brakes built in.
 
 
HCE
16:34 / 10.09.05
But ... but ... don't both sides have to walk away from the conflict in order for Erisian's method to work? If you keep walking away and the other guy doesn't let you go, you're not leaving the conflict, you're being chased.

The problem isn't that if we don't fight laws against gay marriage, gays won't be able to marry. The problem is that if you let people tell you who you can marry, then they'll try to tell you what you can read, eat, and think, and who you can love, fuck, live with, and so forth.

You don't get liberty by running away from people who want to take it from you. I'm sorry, but it's not that easy.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
16:56 / 10.09.05
Boy, is my face red. I was all, "Let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt, maybe we can persuade him to see things another way"... then I come back to the thread, tables have been turned over, there're all these toys on the floor...

Sorry, Erisian. The worst thing about this is that you probably feel like the board united in some concerned liberal-fascist effort to destroy you by not taking your ideas seriously. If you can't come to a forum like Barbelith with the full expectation of having your mind changed on a few things, then I'm not sure what all your intention is. It's just that your key idea, that people who disagree should split up into separate communities rather than try to overcome their differences and resolve inequalities... I can't imagine anyone here considering that a realistic way of dealing with the world.
 
 
alas
20:33 / 10.09.05
Perhaps a Libertarianism for beginners thread might be illuminating?

It might, but I have so little respect for it as a philosophy that I, personally, don't want to start it. I teach for a living; I regularly have to teach about certain philosophical and/or religious beliefs that I don't hold (e.g., I often have to teach pro-slavery arguments in order to teach ex-slave narratives).

To me, Libertarianism is a philosophy for white, well-off males--Ayn Rand and her ilk notwithstanding. (Ok, maybe it's for wealthy white men and the falsely-conscious people who love them). It is based on a simplistic and naive understanding of individualism and void of any awareness of the necessity of human interdependence.

Even without his own admission of being 22 and US (with a brief experience in Canada), it's obvious from everything he says that Erisian is a young white American male who is clueless about the privileged, socially-supported position (his protestations about his economic status notwithstanding--his is a poverty-by-choice that cannot comprehend genuine poverty and social disenfranchisement), from which he blithely argues that people who don't like everything about America as it is should just leave it.

So I don't want to teach libertarianism on my own time! (Call me selfish!)

There is a thread, however here, in the headshop on Rand that touches on this subject.

But none of this changes the fact that Bush is indeed a sick fuck. Won't fire "Brownie" just pullin' him back to the friggin' beltway. Fucker.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
21:15 / 10.09.05
I wonder what kind of music Bush listens to, and what size shoe he wears.
 
 
Mistoffelees
21:40 / 10.09.05
Sorry if you already know this one (sounds like a very old joke), but I just found it:

George W. Bush went to see the doctor to get the results of his brain scan. The doctor said: "Mr. President, I have some bad news for you. First, we have discovered that your brain has two sides: the left side and the right side."

Bush interrupted, "Well, that's normal, isn't it? I thought everybody had two sides to their brain?"

The doctor replied, "That's true, Mr. President. But your brain is very unusual because on the left side there isn't anything right, while on the right side there isn't anything left."
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:38 / 11.09.05
I don't get any of these jokes. Why does Bush punch old people?
 
 
Brigade du jour
02:08 / 11.09.05
To get to the other side.

Think about it.
 
 
Hroptr-Gagnrath
02:31 / 11.09.05
I am ashamed to say that yes, I voted bush.

I'm a registered Republican, and I made the same mistake in 2000. Things like the Patriot Act in the aftermath of 9/11 really opened my eyes, since I had thought one of the main ideas in Conservatism was minimizing the government's superfluous involvement in people's private lives. The Patriot Act reminded me of 1984, and that book was not written about the dangers of an overly conservative government, but was inspired by Nazi Germany and Communist Russia, which you'd think would be the other extreme.

Since then, I've done a lot more reading and talking to people, and even though I don't always agree with the "Big Government" that Liberals tend to be in favor of, I've found that they (the ones I know) seem to be much more likely to be able to talk about politics in an intelligent way, and I respect that. Heh, the funny thing is I seem to be more passionately anti-Bush than many of them. Perhaps in a saner world where conservatives didn't have such an Orwellian bent with a significant dose of an attitude reminsecent of Marie Antoinette, I'd still be enthusiastic about the Republican Party.

A bit of irony... I've had very conservative friends, and they attribute a very similar range of failings to "Liberals" as a whole that I often hear my Liberal friends accusing the Bush administration of. Projection? Natural fear of "the others?" (I despise how the two party system we have encourages a "us and them" mentality, rather than a "let's see who's got the best plan" mentality.)
 
 
grant
02:49 / 11.09.05
Well, there's a lot of confusion over what "liberal" and "conservative" mean, nowadays. The labels haven't exactly flip-flopped, but I've heard it said that the neo-conservative movement (of which Bush is a part) grew out of "classical liberalism." I'm not sure exactly what that term means. It seems to denote something between "modern liberalism" and libertarianism, but there's an awful lot that could be described that way.

This article on "Liberalism" clears it up a little.
 
 
Hroptr-Gagnrath
02:58 / 11.09.05
Wow, it is things like I read in thta wikipedia entry you linked to that remind me just how ignorant I am of the subtle nuances of politics, growing up here in the states, where we tend to be spoon fed our beliefs and values, and given very little reason or explanation.
 
 
Ender
00:32 / 13.09.05
I have been away from things for a while, and am shocked/tickled to see such a response to things in this thread.

I am still in a formative state, and the things said here have really helped me.

Thanks everyone.
 
 
Slim
01:53 / 13.09.05
I forgot about this thread until it had already reached six pages. Whoops. Ignore comments by posters like Nina, Ender. You made a mistake, time to move on. It's not like your one vote changed the fate of the free world. The ability to show an understanding of someone else's point of view is a valuable tool in being able to change their way of thinking. I say, go forth and use your powers for good, not evil.
 
 
sleazenation
06:16 / 13.09.05
It's not like your one vote changed the fate of the free world.

Except, it kind of does - every vote counts, although admittedly, under the US election system, some votes count more than others.
 
 
grant
13:34 / 13.09.05
Just heard this in the newsroom:

REPORTER: So, Mr. President, what do you think about Roe versus Wade?

BUSH: Oh, I don't care how those poor people get out of New Orleans.
 
 
Ender
18:54 / 13.09.05
I agree one vote can change the world.

But

A man can change, would anybody like to argue that?

And I pose this question,

Would you damn me, would you damn anyone for making a mistake and trying to make amends?
 
 
Ganesh
18:58 / 13.09.05
Depends on the mistake.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:07 / 13.09.05
Look the question that I've actually been trying to move towards is this: are you never going to vote for Bush again or are you never going to vote for people like Bush again? Next time a politician starts this type of war or encourages tax breaks for the rich (who don't need them) or states in public that he is not only pro-life but anti-choice are you going to remember the legacy of this administration or are you going to ignore it again? Because there's nothing honourable in simply saying I wish I hadn't voted for someone, the honour is in saying I will pay more attention, I understand the implications that his earlier actions had, I understand what's wrong with Republican policies when they're as extreme as the current ones. Bush is one man but there are hundreds of people like him in politics everywhere and we have to guard against the ideals, not the individual.

It's not like your one vote changed the fate of the free world

And Slim that's just rubbish. In a democracy anyone who votes holds responsibility. There are probably quite a lot of Enders who are going to go ahead and make the same mistakes again with different people (no offence Ender, I don't mean you specifically) because they don't understand that it's the general policies and not one mistake that are abhorrent.
 
 
Ender
20:18 / 13.09.05
I personally will never vote for anyone even remotley like bush ever again!

My entire political alignment has switched.
 
 
Brunner
13:03 / 14.09.05
So to sum up the thread....

 
 
Quantum
14:50 / 14.09.05
Heh. I'm expecting after the New Orleans event for Bush to try and retrieve his 'credibility' by declaring a War On Weather.
'Congress today voted overwhelmingly to approve massive increases in the military budget to pursue the WoW, the President vowed that he would be 'tough on weather, tough on the causes of weather' and would send a million US marines into the Pacific Ocean, known to be a hotbed of American Weather phenomenon. He cited the existence of sixties radical terrorist group 'The Weathermen' as a clear link between Weather and 9/11.'
 
 
alas
21:21 / 14.09.05
In a democracy anyone who votes holds responsibility.

I'd expand this to include anyone who is ELIGIBLE to vote, whether they do so or not, holds responsibility.

And while I will hold our toes to the fire for what we in the US've done, right along with Nina, I will say that in the US, the combinatin of:
the massive control that corporate interests have over the media,
the despair of the poorest amongst us due to the structural impediments to meaningful participation in the economy or politics, and
the 3,000+ advertisements / day that the average american sees, all selling the idea that "YOU are the center of the UNIVERSE! Nothing is more important than what YOU WANT. Products will make you HAPPY"=

LETHAL TO vital, real DEMOCRACY.
 
  

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