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Bush, that sick fuck...

  
  

Page: 123(4)56

 
 
alejandrodelloco
23:38 / 06.09.05
Honestly, it seems like the dude lacks tact. He just keeps stepping on toes. This thread is making me giggle now, though. Back to Bushbashing:

Get Your War On
 
 
Ganesh
23:39 / 06.09.05
Honestly, it seems like the dude lacks tact.

And logical coherence.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:41 / 06.09.05
If you have the option to live the way you want to live somewhere, why should the people of the place you are in HAVE to accomodate the way you want to live?

Also, people in Louisiana: STOP LIVING IN A SWAMP IN HURRICANE ALLEY AND HURRICANES WILL STOP DESTROYING YOUR HOUSES!

Have you even been paying attention to what's been happening in New Orleans? For instance the vast recognition by people here and in certain parts of the press that in order to leave Louisiana you need access to resources that allow you to leave. Money for instance is needed to get a car, train, bus or plane ride from one location to another. Some of those people couldn't even leave when there was a hurricane on the way because they were so poverty-stricken that they couldn't pay to get out of the area. They had no available funds and yet you're suggesting that everyone has the ability to live wherever they want? The point I'm making is that the option isn't there for everyone because uprooting your entire life from one place to another requires a lot more money than leaving a city when a hurricane is heading towards it.

You simply strike me as someone who is very sheltered and assumes that people can just move about as they please. I can also only presume from your consistent assumption that everyone here is American that you are too and on those grounds I suggest you volunteer with the Red Cross or another relief organisation. Go and meet some of the people who were unable to evacuate from Louisiana before the hurricane hit. I guarantee that your world view will be shaken up in only a positive way.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:43 / 06.09.05
Someone should really do a Voigt-Kampff test on this guy... empathy seems to be a problem.
 
 
ibis the being
23:44 / 06.09.05
I think what I think, and that is that people should band together with people who think similarly to them and avoid people who disagree.

Ah, okay, you're a neo-con. In that case, I think Bush and Rummy are your men. You just don't know it yet.

The fact that I think it's more important that people be allowed to do whatever they want on TV or in video games or music or books than it is that gays be allowed to marry does not make me selfish.

Yes, it does.

The fact that I don't care as much about dead Iraqis as you do doesn't make me selfish

But it really, really does!
See, right about there was when I decided you must just be very young. You're a young teenager, right? That's not a good excuse, but it's the only explanation I can think up for such a profoundly obnoxious viewpoint.

Also, people in Louisiana: STOP LIVING IN A SWAMP IN HURRICANE ALLEY AND HURRICANES WILL STOP DESTROYING YOUR HOUSES! I have sympathy for anyone who has ever had something bad happen to them, but in almost every case that person played SOME PART in what happened to them.

Erisian, I really think you have a lot of learning to do and that perhaps you should hesitate to express an opinion on something like this without attempting to gain at least a cursory knowledge of the complexities involved. Start with the history of the city of New Orleans, its importance as a shipping port, the history of the levee system including the fact that it is controlled by the state and not the city, the current news stories involving multiple cuts to the levee project budgets, etc, etc, etc.

You've totally hit on a sore spot here, probably intentionally, so while I will suggest you reexamine whether what you're feeling can truly be called "sympathy," I'll say no more.
 
 
fuckbaked
23:51 / 06.09.05
"I don't have the energy to be nice to someone who voted for someone who has always been a bastard and anyone who was too stupid to see that has no sympathy from me."

Nina, I find that really insulting, even though I didn't vote for Bush, ever. My parents aren't stupid. The friends I've had who are republicans aren't stupid. They've been misinformed by the massive amounts of propaganda they're being fed through the media, by the lack of alternative viewpoints, and by the fact that anyone who manages to get a different point of view out to the masses is portrayed as stupid, uninformed, or a terrorist by the media. It's not just fox news (faux news), but all the major news stations, and to a lesser extent, the newspapers. And, well, something that I believe, but that I couldn't even begin to prove or really to even understand how they're doing it, is that the media and the government are trying to promote complacency. It's not a coincidence that our voter turnout is so low. It's not because we're stupid. I think I've avoided the indoctrination, to some extent, because I grew up in a very liberal part of California, and I don't hear the government/media propaganda echoed to me by the people I know as often as I would if I lived in a different part of the country. I also have lived without a tv for years (I still watch it sometimes. when you haven't watched the news for 3 months, then when you turn it on, the bias and propaganda seem a lot more obvious). I'm trying to fight my own complacency (I never believed the pro-Bush propaganda, but I’ve definitely succumbed to the complacency and indifference that seem so fucking rampant here) so that I can learn about what's really going on and fight it, and it's difficult. I find myself wading through mounds of propaganda to try to get just a little bit of real information, and I don't know how to make a real difference. Protesting doesn't help. Nothing seems to help. I'm not as articulate as the propaganda machine, and my own complacency has left me too uninformed to feel capable of changing anyone's mind on political matters.

If I'd grown up in Utah, or really in any of the more conservative parts of the US, I would probably have voted for Bush, too. Some of the people who voted for Bush are really smart (like my dad. he's got a fucking PhD, started his own successful business, has a really high IQ, etc.,...yet he truely believes that the war in Iraq is necessary, and that we're liberating the people there and improving their lives. and yeah, he voted for Bush.) Nina, unless you’ve lived in such a place and been subjected to the influences that many Americans are being subjected to, I think it’s really out of line to say that the people who have believed what they’ve been told are stupid. (am I correct in believing that you’re British, Nina? If you grew up in Texas or someplace like that, then feel free to call the people who voted for Bush stupid, if you think they’re stupid.)

If the Americans who voted for Bush are really just stupid, then this country is doomed, and is likely to try to take down the rest of the world with it. If the majority of the people in this country are stupid, then there doesn't seem to be much point in trying to change their minds, because they’d never understand anyway. The average republican is not an idiot, nor are they an evil asshole. They deserve to be treated with respect. Dismissing them as stupid is not going to convince them of anything, and will only further the bullshit republican/democrat dichotomy. I truly believe that most of the people in this country want what's best for themselves, their fellow Americans, and the world, and I wish we could all work together.

As powerless as I feel, there is one thing that I am quite convinced of: we need to drastically change the mainstream news media in the US. We need to replace the sound bites and propaganda with actual information and discussion. I don’t know how, but I know that if we don’t, we’re screwed.

Oh, and Ender, congrats.

(If I haven’t made myself clear, then I’ll say this: Nina, I expect that you know that your interpretation of reality is subjective. If you’ve grown up in a different geographical area, with different customs, parents with different political leanings, watching different TV shows, reading different newspapers and books, learning different things in school from different teachers, etc. than another person, then you’re going to come to different conclusions about the world than that person will. That doesn’t mean that the other person is stupid.)

(I’m worried that people here are going to totally misinterpret what I’m trying to say. Nina, I really like you, and in general I think that the things you say are spot on. I’m sorry that this is directed to you, as I realize that it’s quite common for people who didn’t vote for Bush to think that people who did are stupid, and vice versa.)

[/rant]
 
 
fuckbaked
23:54 / 06.09.05
Shit....for some reason I thought I'd read the entire thread before I started ranting. Nope. Not even close. And now I probably look like a moron. *sigh*
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:58 / 06.09.05
Nah... you were just responding to the early, on-topic parts. Before it all got into "giving a shit about TEH GAYERS (or indeed anybody else) means you HATE FREEDOM" territory. Frankly, it's been quite a ride.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:32 / 07.09.05
It's okay I know you're not saying any of this to get at me and you're defending people you love, which is fair and a good thing to do.

So I'm going to try and be clear in my response and please don't take it as a criticism of the people that you're defending.

People are indoctrinated all the time and it's their responsibility at a certain age to start thinking about the media, the way it works and whether what they're seeing makes sense in the wider context of the world. Now assuming that these people have ever left the country (which they might not have done) they've seen other cultures, other television screens, different news sources and know that things are potrayed differently geographically as well as I do. So why not seek out different sources or critically read the way that the information is actually being presented rather than listening to the words? I read The Guardian, I quite like it as a news source but I don't trust it as basic information. I'd have to read five newspapers to gauge some truth from an event. When I watch news coverage of breaking events on cable I flick between six different channels rather than sticking to one because the information is different on every single one.

What I don't understand about America is why people fall to the constant indoctrination that they experience and don't ever question it. I see that it's difficult but there's a lack of cynicism about the system that everyone partakes in that I can't quite understand. When someone is telling you to be complacent shouldn't that make you more suspicious? Even Oprah Winfrey said that she stopped going to church when the minister told her she shouldn't question God.

This is probably the moment where I explain to you that I don't even believe in democracy because I think it's highly ineffective on the vast majority of important issues, so when I say that the people who voted for Bush are stupid I want you to know that I'm looking at this from a highly radical perspective. I think conservatism is highly idiotic and rather selfish, always about the individual, constantly furthering inequality but at a basic level I don't understand the utter lack of support for members of a nation that people are so willing to constantly back up.

If the majority of the people in this country are stupid, then there doesn't seem to be much point in trying to change their minds, because they’d never understand anyway.

I don't mean to be offensive at all but Bush is a President who has rejected hundreds of positive things- do I think backing up a man who rejected Kyoto is stupid? Yes. Do I think backing up a man who signed documents to kill 152 people is stupid? Yes. Do I think that backing up a man who would like to revoke abortion rights is stupid? Yes. Do I think that abstinence as a way to deal with AIDs is stupid? Yes. Do I think that not going out of your way to research the man you're going to vote for is stupid? Yes. In the face of this logic... and it's not difficult to acquire this information if you have any access to alternative news sources at all. It's difficult to access them I'm sure but I'll come to that point shortly in response to the next quote. First I want to say that the stupid questions that I just asked are off the top of my head, not even the tip of the iceberg, there are thousands of stories and facts that detail Bush's failings. I haven't brought up Iraq primarily because I think that in order to understand why it was such a negative thing you would need real access to information but I don't understand how you could completely miss changes to the law in your country and furthermore not want to find about them. I add Guantanamo Bay because if I haad been American that alone would have been enough to make me vote for anyone else.

And this...
I think it’s really out of line to say that the people who have believed what they’ve been told are stupid.

Well I do say that. I'm sorry that you think it's out of line but I sometimes wonder if the people who voted really understood, at a fundamental level, what they were voting for? I don't understand that they couldn't when I constantly hear phrases like "America is the greatest democracy in the world" trotted out on television. All those speeches about America being a peacekeeping nation but people don't take the election of the President seriously enough to search out information on him? This man has about as much power as anyone could ever achieve. He could fire a nuke at us on a whim and he has and will continue to effect every single person in the USA, in Britain, in Iraq, in every country around the world. When electing someone with that much power and influence you have a responsibility to stop believing what you're told, not for the sake of anyone else but for your own sake and for the sake of your offspring and those close to you. When I'm going to vote I don't watch the political campaigns to decide or watch a news channel because they'll throw their towel in with someone and push one point of view. I think to understand that others are as biased as yourself is basic common sense. You have to try to be careful when you're giving someone power and if you don't know that by adulthood and if none of the Americans who voted for Bush understood that then there is no hope for the USA.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:35 / 07.09.05
And you don't look like an moron, you were addressing a point I made that was very flippant at the time. Just because the thread has turned doesn't mean you shouldn't react to an earlier point (and you're on-topic I might add).
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
00:45 / 07.09.05
Also, people in Louisiana: STOP LIVING IN A SWAMP IN HURRICANE ALLEY AND HURRICANES WILL STOP DESTROYING YOUR HOUSES!

Sam Kinneson called and would like his material back. He also said he was wrong about all the homophobic jokes he told, but had a lot of personal pain he was working through.

People live in shitty areas because that is where they end up. And to tell people to leave without giving them the means strikes me as a thinking error.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
00:48 / 07.09.05
Someone should really do a Voigt-Kampff test on this guy... empathy seems to be a problem.

Watch out. Replicants can be dangerous.
 
 
Triplets
01:36 / 07.09.05
We should continue. It usually takes about twenty posts. Thirty. Cross-referenced.
 
 
Mazarine
02:51 / 07.09.05
I think it is silly, wasteful, and pointless to try to convince people to think the way you do.

Irony ain't just a river in Egypt. (It's also not a river in Egypt.)

Anyway, Bush bashing. It never ceases to amaze me just how much this man doesn't give a shit about anyone who can't put eight zeroes on a check with his name on it. Not because I've been indoctrinated, but because I just really didn't think that anybody could be that callous and stupid. I really hope that one of the lessons taken away from this horrible shit storm is that yes, intelligence is a key trait for a leader. Incidentally, so's having a soul.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
07:19 / 07.09.05
This is the first time I've attempted to post in a thread this dense and contentious, so please forgive me if I seem to wander off-topic at any point.

Erisian, a newcomer to Barbelith, has attempted in this thread to convince us of the worth of his political philosophy, Libertarianism. Thanks to this excellent currently active thread, we already know that this is not a philosophy for which many board members have much regard. This can probably be put down to the facts that (a) many people here are British, and the Libertarian ethos is somewhat foreign to British political life, and (b) of the non-British or US-resident members, most are liberal/left-wing types who view Libertarianism as more or less interchangeable with Republicanism, minus the religious or moralistic trappings.

Now, I would like to make it clear that I think the broad left-wing slant of Barbelith, which is made clear on our Wiki page and should be evident to anyone who has spent any time lurking here, is an unreservedly good thing. I grew up in a 1980s, equality-oriented, pre-New Labour culture (the London Borough of Brent, for those here who'll know what that signifies) and despite being a straight, white male, find racism, misogyny, homophobia and contempt for the poor and less fortunate extremely distasteful. Not merely distasteful, but worth actively fighting against, because I believe that such things degrade all of us who participate in a society that condones them.

Erisian's position as expressed here seems to have been that inequalities and injustices that don't affect him personally aren't worth more than casual consideration on his part, and that anyone who thinks of themselves as hard done by within their community should, rather than attempting to change it, find a better community where they'll be more comfortable. I won't rehearse the reasons why those ideas are flawed in my opinion, as other posters on this thread have already done so much more comprehensively than I could manage.

The only point I would like to make, and I apologise for taking so long to make it, is this: If you believe in the worth of your ideas, it's better for you and for their longevity to air them in an open forum where they're likely to be torn to pieces by people who'll disagree with you, than to trot off to some ideal community of like-minded souls. In fairness, this is just what Erisian has done, ironically somewhat undermining his own position in the process. Although there have been some gritted teeth in evidence, just about everyone on this thread has tried to appeal to argument and logic in opposing Erisian's opinions; where that has been supplanted by outright anger (and I don't condemn such anger), it has still been to the thread's benefit, as I can't recall seeing such a lively debate in Conversation for some time. The fact that Erisian has already allowed that his ideas about gay marriage might be flawed is surely a sign of progress. Therefore I want to extend a cautious welcome to Erisian, and hope that he and his arguments continue to generate threads that are as interesting as this one.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:30 / 07.09.05
Come on, people - 118 posts for this? Erisian has made a decision - that censorship in video games is more directly relevant to the life he lives than anything to do with sex. The idea that this is in any way surprising confuses me.

Do I need to define it to convince you that any definition of it must, at it's root, include that it is an attempt to get all people to play by the same rules in order to be accurate?

Define it, then provide historical attestations of the term being used as you have defined it by the people attempting to enforce it. You will probably not be able to do this, but you might learn a bit while you try. Incidentally, I think you'll find that law is an attempt to get all people to play by the same rules. It's an easy mistake to make.
 
 
Cherielabombe
07:37 / 07.09.05
Wow, fuckbaked, that was a really great post. It almost gets me to the point where I can feel sympathy for a converted Bush voter. But at the moment I'm still dealing with my, um, anger that he got in again. I know it's almost a year later. But I'm still pissed off about the 2000 election, too. I'm sure I'll get over it all someday!

Anwyay, yes, it is certainly true that there are quite a few very intelligent republicans out there, many of whom did not support W, many of whom did. When we get down to ideologies, to be honest I have absolutely no problem with those who support a more conservative ideology. It's when that conservative ideology gets wrapped up in the cloak of 'True American Patriotism' and 'True Moral Values' that I have a problem with. The Bush administration has blatantly deflected attention away from issues that independents, Democrats and Republicans care about, such as our basic failure in Iraq and the lies that it took to get us there, and focused attention on 'moral values' in order to get re-elected.

What really gets my goat about many supporters of our current president is that many of them have bought the Bush line and seem to have an almost rabid denial of reality. I have a pretty bad habit of trawling conservative web sites 'to see what the other side thinks.' There was a woman on the Rush Limbaugh web site who claimed she was so happy we were in Iraq 'because her 6-year-old would probably never have to fight in a war.' Um, WHAAAAT? How can you look at the entirety of history and honestly believe this?

Similarly, I have seen people whose lives have clearly been negatively affected by the Bush administration who still vote for him. Last summer I spent some time talking to my friend's dad, a man in his 50s, who lost the job he had held for nearly 3 decades (he worked in the airline industry) under Bush. He was having very little luck finding new work due to his age, and getting very little support from the administration in terms of finding a new job. Guess who he voted for? It boggles my mind that the people who are hurt most by the Bush administration continue to support him. I guess this is the brilliance of Karl Rove et. al.
 
 
Char Aina
08:26 / 07.09.05
what canty said.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:43 / 07.09.05
Canty: I would add

c) Erisian's stated beliefs are not really those of the Libertarian Party or identifiably Libertarian, as a commitment to personal freedom people being able to do what they want) is a key plank of Libertarianism, and he sees no benefit in advancing freedoms that do not currently exist to people who would use those freedoms in a manner he does not personally endorse. So, as a supporter of limiting central government and central taxation and docking the power of state agencies but also of maintaining a currently conservative social setup, he is in fact a Republican with possibly slightly more socially liberal leanings than the current administration.

This is part of the issue - I don't think that Barbelith is necessarily hostile to Libertarianism per se, although I suspect it is a difficult sell. We just don't tend to get a very good class of Libertarianism. Erisian does not actually seem to know very much about politics or society, and believes that Libertarianism innoculates him against needing to. jbsays is prone to losing his shit completely. Back in the good old days Leap, who effortlessly blended Libertarianism, a sort of bastardised Kropotkinism and the first, artistically superior series of Robin of Sherwood, lost the ability to distinguish between society and live-action role-playing. This may illuminate a failing in the quality of Libertarian thought, but I think it is more probablly just bum luck.
 
 
Quantum
09:05 / 07.09.05
They've been misinformed by the massive amounts of propaganda they're being fed through the media, by the lack of alternative viewpoints, and by the fact that anyone who manages to get a different point of view out to the masses is portrayed as stupid, uninformed, or a terrorist by the media. Baked good

America is the most lied to country in the world, I agree. Just to point out though that Nina is saying the Bush voters are stupid (read: acting stupid) you are responding to her saying they are stupid (read: essentially stupid). Reminds of the racism thing, it's like pointing out there's a bogey hanging from your face, wipe it off, not that you're ugly, euw.

Good post Canty (although OPTIMUS PRIME is the best autobot obviously). On the other hand skipping pages 2, 3 and 4 of the thread could save someone a lot of effort at little cost.

And here's an interesting statistic about travelling (IIRC)- only one in six Americans have a passport. Although that's 40 million people, it seems the majority of US citizens don't leave the state, never mind the country. Whether that's due to poverty, patriotism or parochialism, it does underline the nonsense that people go where they like. I'm off to read some Bushisms.
 
 
Quantum
09:13 / 07.09.05
the first, artistically superior series of Robin of Sherwood
it all went downhill when he went blonde.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
10:06 / 07.09.05
Ta for the props, toksik and Quantum. (Although Prime is a somewhat vanilla choice IMO.)

Haus, in case it wasn't clear from my earlier post, I find every one of the ideas Erisian has aired in his posts in this thread offensively self-serving. You're quite right to hammer away at the iffiness of his personal brand of Libertarianism - I just think we shouldn't discourage the guy from ever posting again, since everybody's arguments against his actually seemed to be making headway at some points. Since this thread has now run over 25 posts since the last word from our man, however, perhaps we're all only talking to ourselves now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:15 / 07.09.05
SWScan00001

Prowl. All the way.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:29 / 07.09.05
I'd imagine ze may only have limited net access, like a lot of posters, and may well come back later.

There are indeed some good rebuttals here... I think the problem I (among others) have is that such selfishness is so utterly repellent that it's hard to engage with without a certain level of revulsion. I'm a great believer in education in these circumstances (not to be confused with EDUCATION!!!, for those who remember Leaptopia)... it's just I get so very tired... looks like I may have a few things to learn from the new guys!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:31 / 07.09.05
Oh, by the way, none of that was meant as an attack on Ender- he's apparently already confronting his guilt and moving on, which is to be praised.
 
 
Quantum
10:42 / 07.09.05
But isn't Prowl gay?
 
 
Quantum
10:49 / 07.09.05
sorry I mean TEH GAY?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:49 / 07.09.05
Bi, I think. Prowl basically likes to have fun. He's pretty logical about it. Works hard, plays hard.
 
 
Quantum
11:06 / 07.09.05
As a straight white male I'm more concerned with censorship than autobots with deviant behaviour, those darn CD stickers really hack me off. Can't believe Optimus got called Vanilla, just 'cos he's in charge doesn't mean he's obvious- all you counterculture folk are brainwashed into liking TEH GAY underdogs.

Back on Bush, anyone who could vote for a man who said;

"If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." - Washington DC April 10 2001

..is acting stupid.
 
 
illmatic
11:16 / 07.09.05
That was a danm good post, Canty.

Re: The "people who voted for Bush are stupid" thing - well, emotive words don't help, get people's defences up and so on. I heard a fantastic radio interview with a prominent Republician senator a little while back where he had a very strong, very articulate case for the war, based on the potential for democratic change, and it's "ripple" effect in the region, and so forth. (Can't remember all of his arguments - or even his name, will look it up and repost). However, what was telling in his arguments was what he left out - the basic self-interest and predjudical behaviour of American forgien policy in that region. Now, if you're not in the habit of thinking that way, I think that can be a bitter pill to swallow. And this is not to say that having a knee jerk leftist stance is particularly enlighted either - in myself, I think it may welll act as a blinker to when the Govt. is attempting to do something postive. (It's possible that a lot of the policy and development decisions in that region have helped people and nations at times). Hard pressed to think of much off the top of my head but tht doesn't mean they're not there.

I don't think it's a question of stupidity vs. enlightenment, it's much more an issue of trust or distrust of authority to me. And I can understand why someone would WANT to trust - after all, we don't really want to believe we're governed by a bunch of crooks, do we?
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
11:37 / 07.09.05
Illmatic, I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of why people don't want to consider the idea that the Bush administration is out-and-out malign. While I always thought seeing through Bush was child's play, it took me a ridiculously long time to accept that Tony Blair and the British government actually lied, dissembled and cheated their way into taking us into war in partnership with the US, on the flimsiest of cases. The notion that the people in charge of your life not only don't care what you think of them, but would be happy to see you suffer if it was expedient for them... that's hard for Americans to take.
 
 
Quantum
11:56 / 07.09.05
The notion that the people in charge of your life not only don't care what you think of them, but would be happy to see you suffer...is hard to take

Not just Americans. *froths in impotent rage*
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:27 / 07.09.05
Sorry, this is all a bit behind the times now...

Erisian 00:42 / 07.09.05 What I am trying to explain here is that if homosexuals were being placed in concentration camps, or if it were illegal for homosexuals to move to other countries where they could legally be married, or if they in some way had rights different from other people, I WOULD be helping out with the cause of equal rights.

So, what levels of discrimination are you happy with? You've already said you're cool with gay people not having the right to marry, because you don't believe in marriage, yet you've not said anything I can see about removing the right to marry for straight people. Are you happy with lesbians loosing custody of their children, despite being in stable, prosperous relationships, and the children being put with their fathers in unstable, insecure relationships with absolutely no prospects? At exactly which point along the road to the concentration camp do you finally get up off your arse? Would it not make sense to do this now, so you have to expend less effort, than later on, when the job is more difficult? Or would you rather work out how to unload the hidden bestiality rape scene on GTA 23?

However, in America, everyone has the right to marry someone of the opposite gender. Saying that everyone has the right to marry the person they love is ridiculous; if it were, every love triangle would have a sitcom ending.

Oh please, if you're going to argue against it, please try and use an argument that works. You can't try and argue against homosexual marriage by eqauting it with bigamy. I could summon up some respect for your position based on a personal belief that marriage is a pointless institution, but don't try to argue against allowing other people the freedom to follow their beliefs, especially when that doesn't affect you.

Tour Of Stoatie 00:42 / 07.09.05 See, this has always been my problem with libertarianism in general... it all sounds very nice, and has such a nice name, but it's essentially as selfish as it gets.

Agreed. If this display is in any way accurate as a representation of a Libertarian then I think I've found people to dislike more than Republicans.

Erisian 01:33 / 07.09.05 If you have the option to live the way you want to live somewhere, why should the people of the place you are in HAVE to accomodate the way you want to live?

Because that would be the Libertarian way? God, I hope that next election there's a 'Selfish Bastards' candidate standing as they'll probably be a much better choice for you than one advocating people doing what they want 'and it hurt none'.

Say I and a SO move to Utopia to get married, assuming that I had the money and time to arrange a move and we could find a job there to support ourselves, doesn't that mean that equality in this country is now a miniscule part of a percent more unlikely, the forces of repression are a miniscule part of a percent stronger and have a miniscule part of a percent more chance of influencing government policy to be anti-equality which could then tip over and encourage anti-equality tendencies in international organisations like the UN and the EU (or whatever international organisations cover your countries) then pretty soon Utopia is under increasing pressure to remove the protections it gave me and my partner when we move there.

Running away and blocking one's ears is up there with 'duck and cover' as a really crap way to fight intolerence. But hey, by that time you'd already be dead because they would have locked you up ages ago you crazy freedom-hatin' Libertarian!

Erisian 02:00 / 07.09.05 The best you can hope for is to remove limits on people doing what they want and find people who think like you do.

Yet you are against removing the limits on who gaysexuals can marry.

Everyone IS allowed to have whatever view they want, no matter how stupid-ass you think it is. Why? Because there is room in the world for people who think different things to live apart from each other and marry and abort whoever and whatever they want.

Yet you are against letting gaysexuals marry other gaysexuals, unless they go over the hill and far away. Why is the world big enough but not your town or city? Gaysexuals don't automatically take up more space than heterosexuals, and not all gaysexual couples want children so may actually take up less.

Also, people in Louisiana: STOP LIVING IN A SWAMP IN HURRICANE ALLEY AND HURRICANES WILL STOP DESTROYING YOUR HOUSES! I have sympathy for anyone who has ever had something bad happen to them, but in almost every case that person played SOME PART in what happened to them.

Oh... my... God. < clicks slippers together > There's no place like home, there's no place like home. I mean, unless you've got pictures of the inhabitants of New Orleans going out with picks the night before to tear down the leavees you are talking from somewhere far, FAR removed from sense and reason.

People were migratory once; I'm not saying it's the right way to live But you are, for gays.

Oh and Bumblebee 4evah!
 
 
Quantum
18:38 / 07.09.05
Bumblebee is even gayersexual than Prowl, who I heard was seen in Finsbury Park late at night. Sexual predator that he is.

I notice the Marge Piercy racist bogey came up here and in the uncool-racist-quotes debate today- 'doing' racism/stupidity as opposed to 'being' same. Is there a name for it (apart from 'racist bogey') or a convenient shorthand?

'nother Bushism-
"I've coined new words, like 'misunderstanding' and 'Hispanically'." March 29th 2001
 
 
ibis the being
19:05 / 07.09.05
"I've coined new words, like 'misunderstanding' and 'Hispanically'."

OMG, I think that's the best one ever. In fact I'm going to Hispanically raise a toast to Bush right now. Lest there be any "misunderstanding," any idea where/when he said that? - Just out of curiosity.
 
  

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