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52*

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13:37 / 02.05.07

Right, I'm taking the initiative here; since there's already a larger ongoing retrospective discussion about the quality or otherwise of the whole series, here's Phex' take from his '52 pickup' thread:

Issues of 52*, D.C's groundbreaking weekly comic, should be hitting the stands as I type. Paradoxically, now that it's over we should be asking ourselves: should it even have begun?
If anything, I think we can agree that it was an ambitious enterprise: five of the biggest writers in comics working on the longest weekly comics series published in North America. Though it centered on a handful of characters (Black Adam, Renee Montoya, Ralph Dibney, the Space Heroes, Booster Gold, Will Magnus) the real protagonist was the DC Universe itself- from the Gotham back alleys to the depths of space and time. Maybe this was what Grant Morrison was babbling about when he said the DCU was becoming self-aware. If it continues then DC will be a very different company from Marvel, for better or worse.

In the brief period between now and the beginning of Countdown on May 9th it might be a good idea to stop and reflect on the Big Questions about this big event, the biggest question of all being: was it really worth it?

Well, was it? I'll answer after I've read the whole thing through, I think.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

15:14 / 02.05.07

Trips, let's not dogpile the guy. Poor bloke's never gonna live the Infinite Crisis stuff down.

*shakes head*

Anyway. Week 52 was fantastic. It was a love story all along.

I'm off to enjoy the whole thing again, yes, starting with Infinite Crisis. OOOH, I FUCKING LIKED IT, WHY NOT DISCOUNT EVERYTHING I'VE EVER POSTED.

15:53 / 02.05.07

I'd call 52 a qualified success. There were some gaps in the storytelling, and a handful of editorial gaffes, but the series succeeded on two major fronts.

1) It told a few good stories, with only minor reliance on spectacle (mostly w.r.t Black Adam & the rookie JLA).

2) It came out on time, every week, for a year.

19:27 / 02.05.07

Thanks, Boboss and Benjamin. Triplets' dismissive comment bringing up a tired reference that's almost 2 years old (not only distorting my opinion, but implying that an unpopular opinion is grounds for scorn here 'on these very boards') is just further evidence of the 'cheap potshots' that Barbelith is infamous for among comics pros and fans alike. It's good to see that there are some here who don't see that kind of stuff as cool, fun or acceptable.

Plus, I answered Falke's mock-command for me to stop saying I liked some of the art by specifically explaining my opinion on the various artists, which got no response.

On a lighter note, I honestly don't think there was a 'house style' on the book - Giffen's breakdowns might have given some sense of style as far as frequent use of the 6-panel grid or whatever, but I didn't get a sense that editors told artists to draw in any particular style. The artists who aren't as good drew in their style, and better artists drew in their style, from what I could see.

Anyway.

Those J.G. Jones covers were really great, weren't they?

19:34 / 02.05.07

And I did mention my feelings to Triplets in PM first, before anyone asks.

Back to what we're here for, which is fun discussion.

19:38 / 02.05.07

SPOILER SPACE (if needed?)

So, the Wildstorm Universe is one of the 52?

Then what about the 1,933 million whatever snowflake universes that make up the Wildstorm U? And the Bleed?

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

20:42 / 02.05.07

Then what about the 1,933 million whatever snowflake universes that make up the Wildstorm U? And the Bleed?

...which would be one of the reasons that setting (a) a finite number on the universes and (b) the Wildstorm U within the same multiverse just because of a shared publisher are a bit of a bad idea. It's like everything else: what a little while and somebody's going offbook and breaking the model.

Benjamin & Finder- It's unfortunate you were addressed in that way. I probably would have engaged with the artists thing if I had the issues on hand. I'm wondering if Giffen's breakdowns were part of the problem; does his work look good when other people finish it? Or are his breakdowns better suited to his own hand & eye for drawing?

20:51 / 02.05.07

Nah, it's simple. Fifty-two branches, one of those branches, called the WS branch, has a lot of little snowflakey shoots on it.

Or, to steal Alan Davis' Excalibur explanation, it's like radio signal. There's only so many settings, but the type of information relayed in those settings, via channel, relay-rate, or simply how the info is meant to be taken and received - bluetooth, walkietalkie, K-Earth 101 fm, riot-control - is a separate variance from simply being radio frequency. At least, sometimes. Wildstorm's a bit like bluetooth, in that case, so it's like shortwave giving birth to a variety of forms of communication/information-relay/reception.

Essential Dazzler

21:12 / 02.05.07

Also there was the whole Worldstorm dealy. That happened around the end of infinite Crisis, was masterminded by Grant Morrison, and has yet to be fully explained. It could easily have been the WSU being broken and bought into it's new role as Universe 50

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

21:14 / 02.05.07

Daytripper has the right of it, especially taking the other WSU/DCU crossover stuff into account.

At one point the WSU might have been entirely its own thing (cosmologicaly... it certainly was publishing and writing wise) but after the events of Captain Atom: Armageddonm, it's pretty solidly immersed into the superstructure of the DCU.

But still, presumably, maintaining its own "snowflaky bits". The Bleed, meanwhile, may actually be the glue that holds the whole megaverse together... at least according to ION and STORMWATCH.

And I dearly wish we were getting a Montoya Question series.

22:24 / 02.05.07

Over all enjoyable, better art would certainly have made for a stronger over all experience.

I think I'll pass on the next weekly...

as for how the 52 fit into everything else and wildstorm etc. I figured there is something like 51 DC Universes which then interface with one of the Wildstorm Universes. There would then be 52 possible earths to visit with-in that mulitverse.

That Wildstorm universe then interfaces with any number of parallel universes via the bleed. It's here that I'd imagine the ABC universe connects in there as well. Somewhere along that stream either or both of these Universe or Multiverse interconect with Marvel or Dark Horse multiverses.

It's then all of these comicbook multiverses that then compose the megaverse. To me at least.

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:04 / 03.05.07

Triplets' dismissive comment bringing up a tired reference that's almost 2 years old (not only distorting my opinion, but implying that an unpopular opinion is grounds for scorn here 'on these very boards') is just further evidence of the 'cheap potshots' that Barbelith is infamous for among comics pros and fans alike.

Really? Fantastic! Only one thing worse than being talked about, and all that.

01:57 / 03.05.07

Yep, my take on it was the same as Daytripper and Imaginary Mongoose's seconding of same - 52 universes/worlds, the Wildstorm one can have all of its subsets, etc.

>> I'm wondering if Giffen's breakdowns were part of the problem; does his work look good when other people finish it? Or are his breakdowns better suited to his own hand & eye for drawing?

I've seen Giffen's breakdowns - so can anyone; they're at the DC website (the 52 section) and Rich Johnston even listed a bunch where Giffen put in Zatara wearing fishnets & heels. I don't think Giffen's breakdowns are to blame at all for any perceived deficiences in the art - all they did was basically lay the story out with almost stick figure type layouts. They did dictate the panel grid/layouts, for the most part. But beyond the super-basic layouts, it was in the hands of the pencillers from that point on; at least that's my understanding.

01:58 / 03.05.07

echoing what Mr. Tricks said as well... (re: the above). And I love the phrase "The megaverse"! Plus, now that we know there are lots and lots of universes (officially), whether it's 52 or 1000-some-odd probably doesn't make all that much difference anyway in the long run.

06:54 / 03.05.07

Plus, I answered Falke's mock-command for me to stop saying I liked some of the art by specifically explaining my opinion on the various artists, which got no response.

Just so you know, I thought your response was thoughtful and measured.

10:30 / 03.05.07

I'm a bit puzzled by the end of the series to be honest. I mean, I'm sort of delighted that they've brought the multiverse back because I think it's a fun concept that has a lot of interesting story opportunities. I also sort of like the idea that it has a ring-fenced number of worlds out there (always a bit puzzled that it's only earth that seems to have multiple versions, but hey) because it means it's not endlessly, stupidly possible to explore. It's good that there's a much larger arena to play with, because it opens up apocalyptic stories with non-happy endings (ie. a villain can take over a parallel earth for years or even decades and we can see how that plays out) and long overarching storylines that don't screw up the 'native universe'.

Having said that, I'm really puzzled by the relationship between the main earth and these alternatives. The JSA exist on our earth. They are pretty much identical to the JSA that Earth 2 would have, surely? The Marvel family on our world and on Earth 5 (?) are also going to be pretty similar. The idea of having multiple earths works really well if our earth is distinct from the others, but less well if many of the other earths are just cut down versions of the main one, filled with a selection of the same characters.

So I don't really get that so much. It would be better not to bring back Earth 2 or Earth X and S and stuff, and instead concentrate on the actual alternative versions that didn't merge with our world - like Earth 3 and the Wildstorm universe and some of the Elseworlds, and then create some more alternative versions that have clearer Elseworld-like divergences from our own. It would be good, for example, to have at least one earth full of Martians, who colonised in a divergent history. Earth 2 and Earth 5 are just weird now. Unhelpful. Unless, of course, people like Infinity Inc leave our earth to head go back to their respective worlds. Which would also be... odd..

10:30 / 03.05.07

Maybe we need to have another thread on the return of the multiverse and what we know of it so far?

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:34 / 03.05.07

If there's one bit where 52 let me down rather, it was the absence of the sexualised injury and degradation of women. From a major company like DC, frankly, I expected better, especially after the highs of Identity Crisis.

Don't get me wrong - they did try, and I really appreciate it. A lot of this was based around Isis, of course, whom we see introduced as a sex slave to make it quite clear how Intergang roll - after a lengthy and tedious period where she was pretty much unmolested, we finally got to see a man in armour ramming his big chopper into her pretty face. That was just a prelude, however, to Pestilence covering her face and bare thighs with his gooey muck. Then, just in case you hadn't got it, telling death that he had spread his pestilence over and inside her. Good work, fella!

That pretty much saved it for me. Honourable mentions definitely for Renee Montoya (promiscuity? Clearly having a breakdown), Batwoman (in bondage and stabbed through the chest), Natasha Irons (tricked into sexy with the man who killed and ate her boyfriend), and let's not forget random death pregnancy lady in the Queen Styx arc.

I know it's not strictly speaking 52, but honourable mention to Terra in World War III - quality penetration action. I had rather hoped that Black Adam was going to forget himself and have sex with Young Frankenstein so hard his arms came off, but no way of living is entirely without disappointment.

Seriously, though, I think 52 could have been redeemed with one single page on which, after Nightwing has realised that in order to save Gotham he will have to follow a werewolf around the city to save it from a set of incendiary bombs activated by a shapeshifting squid and his mates, while Renee Montoya races to save Batwoman from being sacrificed according to the dictates of a holy book written in the most godawful Denis Waterman cockerney ever encountered, he mutters "No. This is just ridiculous", gets into his batwingnightplane and pisses off to Bludhaven, there to change his name and sell insurance, as Gotham glows red on the horizon.

Keith, like a scientist

12:52 / 03.05.07

Seeing it that way, I guess I would have probably stopped reading it at some point, then.

12:58 / 03.05.07

*lol* I had to google Denis Waterman since I'm not familiar with him. Yeah, the Bible of Crime is an odd notion, isn't it? Did Darkseid (I assume he wrote it, since it's supposed to have come from Apokolips) just decide to sit around one day and write his thoughts on everything that's horrible and eeeevil, and How To Be A Highly Effective Evil Being? Although I was amused by the faux-grandiosity of the Bible's text, this was a weird plot point to be sure. Especially since old Crackly-Grey-Face Darkseid himself has been absent from the DCU for a while (although I guess he's slated to return in Countdown or whatever the big upcoming DCU event is, from recent teasers).

13:56 / 03.05.07

So was Rip Hunter written by at least two people with completely different agendas? Because on one page alone, he goes from "We stopped Mr. Mind, but not before he wreaked unimaginable havoc on fifty-plus earths" in panel 3 to "That's not broken. That's the way it SHOULD be" in panel 9. So Mr. Mind is good in small doses... is that what you're trying to say, Rip?

All in all, I enjoyed 52 for what it was. It was marketed as an event comic, but it turned out to be an anthology series instead (an interview on Newsarama with Mark Waid seems to indicate this happened accidentally). Uneven, but compelling and fun.

Phex: Dorset Doom

14:14 / 03.05.07

...he mutters "No. This is just ridiculous", gets into his batwingnightplane and pisses off to Bludhaven

Or 'I bet Daredevil doesn't have to put up with this shit'. Unfortunately we can only speculate since Bludhaven was not only exploded, but double exploded.

As for Darkseid, his grey sausage-fingers were all over parts of 52- he set Devilance on the trail of the space heroes, the Four Horsemen were Apokaliptican, Intergang is basically his presence on Earth (hence their final ploy, which wasn't simply to detonate incendiary bombs but create one of those Apokaliptican fire-pits where Gotham should be). Lady Styx seems a little like Girl-Darkseid, and something tells me they might be linked somehow. When Countdown starts my guess is we'll be seeing him get off the sidelines and make a major play.

rabideyemovement

14:33 / 03.05.07

What about the experimental gun that Booster time-kleptoed from the Dominators over in Legion of SuperHeroes?
We never saw him use the weapon on Mr. Mind, so what was even the point of that crossover?

Phex: Dorset Doom

14:45 / 03.05.07

Ditto for the missile he stole from Steel and Natasha during WW3.

14:51 / 03.05.07

That wasn't Rip Hunter, that was Runt Hipster, alternate time-traveller from the DC series following Countdown, provisionally titled 'Every Second Counts'.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

16:17 / 03.05.07

Finder: Did Darkseid (I assume he wrote it, since it's supposed to have come from Apokolips) just decide to sit around one day and write his thoughts on everything that's horrible and eeeevil, and How To Be A Highly Effective Evil Being? Although I was amused by the faux-grandiosity of the Bible's text, this was a weird plot point to be sure.

No, Darkseid totally agreed to the book deal, got the advance, and then turned around and shouted until Vermin Vundabar or Kato (Cato?) shuffled into the room and agreed to write the book, and by agreed I mean got down on their knees and prayed he wouldn't Omega-Beam them like he did that time somebody scribbled "Darkseid Isn't" on a wall rather than "Darkseid Is." Only on Apokalips is grafitti so tightly ruled. Vermin, of course, sits around with Cato (Kato?) in a candle-lit chamber drinking whatever Apokalips considers equivalent to Absinthe, writing out the Cosmic Mein Kampf, the villainous How to Win Friends and Influence People (Using Psychic Domination Techniques!) while Darkseid goes off to eat babies or whatever it is he does on a Friday night. Meanwhile, of course, Desaad is making a backroom deal to write a tell-all and it's another six months before Darkseid ends up on E! True Hollywood Story with Granny Goodness being interviewed about some truly awkward trysts they had.

16:38 / 03.05.07

EXACTLY! Couldn't have said it better myself.

18:36 / 03.05.07

Kanto, actually.

But if anyone was the ghost-writer, I'd bet on Glorious Godfrey. Propaganda and swaying crowds is his gig (Remember LEGENDS?)

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

18:42 / 03.05.07

Nah, Godfrey's so over print media. He'll direct the straight-to-DVD Crime Bible Adaptation.

And Darkseid Is: The Musical.

20:34 / 03.05.07

Omega!
I just launched the beams named Omega.
And suddenly I'll see,
That you have ceased to be,
To me!

Omega!
Send it out, and there's no defending.
Watch them curve, as your life is ending.
Omega. I'll always be using Omega!

21:16 / 03.05.07

I'm going to have visions all day long. Mandy Patinkin as Cato. Barda; Patti LuPone. On platforms with heel-lifts.

Someone save me. Batman, save me! Quick, to the Photoshop!

The trades start coming out right after the last issue, roughly, yeah?

21:30 / 03.05.07

End of the month, apparently. I don't know if I'd especially recommend it as a trade, really; it was an 'of the moment' kind of book, really - what'll it be this week? "Oh Christ, Infinity Inc./Steel are on the cover - shite/Doc Magnus is on the cover - great." Reading 52 pickup, putting it down.

21:31 / 03.05.07

'it' there being the week's issue. I'm flagging on my reread, stalled at week 37 as we speak.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

21:46 / 03.05.07

BIG NEWS!

Kalibak praised for the startling rendition of "Sell me a dream (of destruction!)" at the top of the second act! Barbara Streisand weeps openly in the front row as old Kalibak ends up in a heap down stage, drowned in spotlight and whispering the last lines...

01:38 / 04.05.07

Just wait for the show stopping duet between Darkseid and a disguised Mister Miracle:

"Don't Cry For Me Armagetto"

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