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Post-Modern Magick by Seth

 
  

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Tryphena Absent
23:43 / 16.05.05
Post-modernism, pop culture, memes... is this a reflection of the changing backgrounds of modern magicians?

I'd suggest that post-modernism has effected magic to the extent that it's undertaken parts of these other disciplines. I think it's a broader cultural change that has effected magic rather than magicians hitting on post-modernism individually by accident. Sorry, I'm not sure I'm expressing what I mean to here.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:40 / 17.05.05
It strikes me that there seem to be a fair few books out there which are taking ideas from art history, philosophy and cultural studies and applying them to magical practice. Post-modernism, pop culture, memes... is this a reflection of the changing backgrounds of modern magicians...

I think to some extent this has been going on for a while, Haus. If you look at the voluminous outpourings of the Theosophical society from the 19th century, the works are full of references to the scientific theories of the age - either using science to support the theosophical teachings, or explaining why science was 'wrong'. By the 1930s onwards, you've got a new generation of occultists heavily influenced by Freud, Jung, D.H. Lawrence (Dion Fortune, for example) whose writings are laced with psychoanalytic theory.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:04 / 17.05.05
Baiting this on? Really?

Anathema; I think he deserves a little better than the treatment he is getting here, if only for the courage to take you all on in this little gang bang. That struck me as interesting - that you reached so quickly for the idea that those you do not like are having this metaphorical gang bang. As opposed to the manly, entirely unsexual feelings of affection that drove you to protect Mr. Elwood from the bad people whose criticisms you had not actually read. So, yes, in answer to your question. Anyone who deliberately ignores the subject of a discussion, attempts to shut other people up with personal abuse, does not give others the simple courtesy of reading what they have written before bowling in and insulting them... that I call trolling.

Regarding moderation, I suggest you read the FAQ. That will tell you lots of interesting things about how moderation functions on Barbelith. Right now, you are pretty clearly not interested in talking about anything except yourself and how much better you are than all the dirty sex-having people who don't understand Mr. Elwood the way you do. Mr. E. has asked for productive discussion. To do that, you need to say something about something other than yourself and how much better you are than the rest of us. Personal attacks and talking about yourself are very easy and undemanding, and I can see why they would be tempting pursuits for young minds, but if you want to stay in this thread and ultimately on Barbelith, which may be useful for telling other people how much you like them and are looking out for them in a way that those dirty sex-having gaylords never could, you really should try to discuss the topic, not the people. A number of possible spin-off threads have been proposed, along with potential ways to carry on the discussion here. If you have no interest in either, but just want to carry on picking fights, do so in the Conversation. Otherwise, you are trolling.

TaylorElwood: The fact of your he-ness was not in question - if you read back a little, you will find yourself addressed as "Mr. Elwood" passim. The point was that I imagine Anathema tends to form these close relationships primarily with men. It's a role-model thing.

Trouser: Very good point. To extend it, perhaps the antique stuff is itself a form of vogue - another thread of modern fascination. In effect, the ancient occult law is not even a certificate of validity - it's another way that a modern sensibility can find a structured metaphorical system comprehensible to them in which to practice magic. So somebody whose experience of the world was primarily through cultural objects like The Matrix or The Invisibles might see that metaphorical framework in terms of King Mob or Neo, whereas somebody else who has come in through a different route couches the same basic aspirations and process in terms of Ghede or Apollo.

From there, is there any way of hierarchising the process, or is _all_ magic postmodern in the Nina Clamourity sense - a soup of potential significations that can (should?) be approached as elements rather than limiting systems? If so, are pop culture magic (tm) and the wisdom of the ancients (tm) just two exclusionary filtters applied to a vast set of potentially usable conceptual resources or magical entities?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:14 / 17.05.05
Haus

I think the notion of modern v antiquity is in itself a trope - it'd be interesting to examine situations where these two elements collide and collude. Take the Golden Dawn for example - on the one hand there's the purported link to "ancient wisdom" (the legitimation, if you like) provided by the cypher ms and the Fraulein Sprengel correspondence to Westcott et al; there's the scholarship of whizz-kid SL Mathers who spends his days in various museums - and then there's the modern influences - the temple furniture & paintings by Moina Mathers (graduate of the Slade), the huge influence on G.D. ritual from actress & diva Florence Farr (who wrote several books on magic), Yeat's theories of language etc.,. So one might say that the Golden Dawn was at once both "ancient" and "modern" simultaneously.

As to the postmodern notion of bricolage - a position taken by some early chaos magicians was to attempt to detach contemporary magick from the notion that it is a perennial 'tradition' handed down from 'ancient sources' (i.e. something fixed & unchanging) to the present-day. Of course this was seen as a 'new' approach (and therefore good) and an attempt to 'modernise' magic (and arguably a reflection of how western culture privileges the 'new' over the 'old'). And of course there have been sporadic calls for 'modernisation' ever since, with a continual shifting of the goalposts as to what constitutes 'new' v what is deemed to be not-new.

Of course, its not uncommon for magicians to want to have their cake and eat it, in the sense that there seems to be a continual scurry of authors turning up with ideas which are simultaneously ancient and modern - or at least ideas that are legitimised by positing a link (with varying degrees of tenuousness) to some earlier source - but of course updated for the modern reader. I'd suggest that, rather than trying to hierachicalise these tensions - or indeed to continue to cast them as binary oppositions (a point I made earlier), it'd be perhaps more effective to interrogate the notion of how contemporary magical practice borrows from its surroundings using Deleuze and Guattari's notion of rhizomatic thinking.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:28 / 17.05.05
Everything's coming up rhizomes...

I was thinking along those lines, trouser, admittedly in my rather muddled way. It struck me after posting that part of what we're talking about is symbolic or experiential languages, in a way. I mean, we had someone on Barbelith asking about the meaning of το μεγα θηριον a while back, which Crowley wrote presupposing that the reader would either speak Ancient Greek or have access to the resources whereby an Ancient Greek phrase could be interpreted - a Liddell and Scott, a friend in the clergy, and so on. Whereas the fellow who was asking had no means of working out what it meant and no place to start - he had been cut off from that system of shared language or shared experience (of a world in which that language is accessible).

He did have the option of seeking knowledge of the language or finding a resource, but without knowung where to start, and in particular if confronted by a different language, which makes your usual search tools (Google, libraries, that kind of thing) much harder to use, what's a mage to do?

I believe that somewhere in Post-Modern Magic the proposition is made that nobody now speaks Latin or Greek, and therefore that forms of practice depending on knowledge of Latin or Greek are no longer functional - Mr. Elwood says something similar earlier regarding the respectfulness or otherwise of using languages outside that native to the object of propitiation. I'd suggest that that is wrong on two counts, but the next step would indeed be that Buffy is probably the way forward. On t'other hand, as you say, rhizomic approaches would not antithesise this - Mr. Elwood earlier shares his frustration with people who can "quote Crowley at the drop of a hat", but have refused to learn about more modern forms of magic, which does indeed seem a bit unwise. However, if we look at Buffy, there are an awful lot of ways to add richness and depth to Buffy by applying earlier knowledge skills - I mentioned archetypes earlier as an aside on discussing "pop culture" (cult) and "mainstream", and for that matter one's understanding of these older traditions can be informed by Buffy, or Xena, or similar. As I also mentioned earlier, you can't lock down comprehension - as long as you know about Hercules from two sources, two sources will play a role in how you see Hercules.

Another possible departure point here may be how acculturation can deform information, and how that functions. F'r example, this thread has seen some things that come from Latin, may look like Latin to the writer and communicate the sense of the latin terms they are based on, but are not Latin. We have "persay" for per se (possibly based on the assumption that the English verb "say" is involved somewhere along the line), and "visa versa" for vice versa (possiby based on the assumption that seeing - vision - is invovled somewhere along the line). These have kept their meanings but lost the structure that locates them as the property of a particular language culture that created them; it becomes a question of how they are being used, and how successfully they are communicating meaning. το μεγα θηριον has a symbolic function - it looks cool, essentially - that a translation wouldn't. Likewise, Buffy has a symbolic load that may be more effective to some people than a less Sarah-Michelle-Gellarish figure like Penthesilea or Artemis. Butbut, comprehension of both Buffy and Penthesilea allows for an intermingling of symbolic and factual (quote unquote, natch, and that's before we even get onto the instability of those terms) content.

A rhizome approach might also break down some of the binaries that have accreted here around mainstream/subversive, cool/uncool, magic-user/uncunt. Is pop culture magic subversive? Is pop culture magic more subversive than non-pop culture magic? Is pop culture magic subversive if it is being used to achieve "mainstream" ends? Is pop culture magic using Conor Oberst more subversive than pop culture magic using Phil Collins? And so on...

GL - localisation of deity. Ask that again, if you have a moment - there's something there that is worth looking into, but I haven't quite got the question clear...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:30 / 17.05.05
Local versions: If you look at living traditions such as Vodou and Santeria and their sister religions, most of the God/desses and Spirits tend to have a multitude of "versions" of themselves that you can interact with. For instance, Erzulie in Haitian Vodou is an extremely complex example. There are several Erzulie's, such as Erzulie Freda - the beautiful Mistress; Erzulie Dantor - the tough single mother with a knife between her teeth; Erzulie La Flambeau - the fiery volatile Petro version; Erzulie Ze Rouge - the vicious, red-eyed, scorned persona. Each of them are different, containing their own specific mysteries, but they are all Erzulies and express different related aspects of feminine identity in Haiti.

Because these religions are not organised or regulated by any central governing body, there are a lot of localised forms. Haitian Vodou practiced out in the country is different from Haitian Vodou practiced in Port-au-Prince, and you sometimes find local versions of the Spirits that are unique to a geographical area; local versions that are unique to a single temple. Indeed, there's the idea that each Vodouisant has their own personal versions of the Lwa that they have inherited from their ancestors. A useful metaphor might be that each of the Gods is a great river with many streams branching off from it.

Trouser has mentioned in previous threads that you find a similar thing in Tantra. For instance, Kali worship in one region of India is completely different from Kali worship in another, and the Goddess is considered in completely different terms so that the sense of Her as a single consistent entity is undermined. There are points of commonality, but fundamental differences in the way the deity is understood and interacted with.

So if you can see this process operating in these living traditions, it makes me wonder if the Gods and Goddesses of no-longer-active traditions were understood in a similar way by their followers. There's a general tendency among occultists to consider a God or Goddess as a single unchanging monolithic thing. Zeus is simply Zeus, with no variation or discrepancy to his personality and range of influence. So I was wondering to what extent this understanding of classical deity is accurate. Is there any evidence for "local versioning" in the religious traditions of ancient Greece? I suppose you can see it a bit in the Roman appropriation of Greek deities, but is there any evidence that the nature of the Gods shifted and changed at a village-to-village level. Is there any evidence for secondary aspects of the Greek Gods, along the lines of an Apollo La Flambeau, or Apollo Ge Rouge.

If you can trace something like that back into more ancient traditions, then perhaps it has some bearing on pop culture magic. If the nature of a God is to be expressed through many varying local aspects and versions, then the model that posits pop culture entities as aspects of older Powers - expressing themselves through contemporary media images - perhaps gains a little more credence.
 
 
Bruno
12:50 / 17.05.05
So if you can see this process operating in these living traditions, it makes me wonder if the Gods and Goddesses of no-longer-active traditions were understood in a similar way by their followers. There's a general tendency among occultists to consider a God or Goddess as a single unchanging monolithic thing. Zeus is simply Zeus, with no variation or discrepancy to his personality and range of influence. So I was wondering to what extent this understanding of classical deity is accurate. Is there any evidence for "local versioning" in the religious traditions of ancient Greece? I suppose you can see it a bit in the Roman appropriation of Greek deities, but is there any evidence that the nature of the Gods shifted and changed at a village-to-village level. Is there any evidence for secondary aspects of the Greek Gods, along the lines of an Apollo La Flambeau, or Apollo Ge Rouge.

Most Greek myths exist in a lot of versions differing from place to place (and time period I would guess); for example there are many different origin myths for Aphrodite, and there are different epithets for her.

I think it's unlikely that a deity in a tradition could ever _not_ differ according to time period and place; look at Jesus and how differently he was viewed by, say, catholics in the middle ages, byzantium, rastas & other african diaspora, mainstream american christianity, etc etc, even though in christianity there is a universal text.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:01 / 17.05.05
Haus
re: richness & depth in Buffy. I'd say Buffy already has a high degree of richness & depth - otherwise it wouldn't be such a successful series. A further way that the Buffy 'universe' gets fleshed out is through the many Buffy novels. A friend recently drew my attention to Ray Garton's (better known for his adult vampire novels) Resurrecting Ravana in which Sunnydale is plagued by a group of rakshasas which herald the return of Ravana who is portrayed as an Indian demon capable of destroying the world. Obviously the plot is based on an Americanised reading of the Ramayana (of course there are many different versions of the Ramayana), but something else Garton brings to the Buffy table is the character of Benson Lovecraft, an occult collector who appears to be based on Aleister Crowley (he's actually introduced as an associate of Crowley). One could argue that the Buffy (and by extension, other series-novels) allow for a greater diversity of imagery and exploration of themes that don't get dealt with in the main TV series.

Incidentally, here's the article examining performative identity in Buffy from a Bulterian perspective.
 
 
Bruno
13:14 / 17.05.05
Taylor:

1) derive
See, to my mind this is what Pop Culture magic does...it derives from spectacle. But I'm guessing we'd disagree/have different definitions.


You're right. It's a french word the Situationists/Lettrists used in their psychogeographical theories: "In a dιrive one or more persons during a certain period drop their relations, their work and leisure activities, and all their other usual motives for movement and action, and let themselves be drawn by the attractions of the terrain and the encounters they find there. Chance is a less important factor in this activity than one might think: from a dιrive point of view cities have psychogeographical contours, with constant currents, fixed points and vortexes that strongly discourage entry into or exit from certain zones." (from Theory of the derive by Debord): http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/2.derive.htm

3) shouting or talking loudly. Doing this in public, moving to a state where you do not give a fuck how you SEEM (because everyone knows that in spectacle being has become seeming). Verbally abusing buildings and advertisements or other symbols of spectacle. Works best in the most gutter dialect of your native language.

Would you count glossalia as part of this?

Like I said before my own language is a marker of resistence and can be very powerful. But I realized it is not fair for people whose way of speaking is, through no fault of their own, fairly identical to the language of power. Glossolalia is a good way of breaking the spell, also things like mantras, chanting, gutteral/brutal singing, and I suppose the various magical languages some people use. I find it is a good way of breaking subvocal thought, which is often influenced by media.

Taylor have you thought at all about subvocal speech and its relation to the sabotager that you mention on your web page about workshops?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:44 / 17.05.05
To avoid confusion, that's dérive, not derive...

Trouser:

re: richness & depth in Buffy. I'd say Buffy already has a high degree of richness & depth - otherwise it wouldn't be such a successful series. A further way that the Buffy 'universe' gets fleshed out is through the many Buffy novels.

Oh, absolutely. Buffy is without a doubt an incredibly rcih and deep experience, before you even move on to the subsidiary texts, and the relatiionship of canonical quality between the novelisations and comics and the TV shows (essentially, the novels and comics reference the events and characters of the TV show, the TV show does not acknowledge the events and characters of the novels or comics, at least until the pretty abysmal Fray tie-in), and the way that publishing schedules at times create impossible continuities (for example, Child of the Hunt, presumably because the events of the Series 2 season finale were not revealed, has IIRC a Season 3 world in which Giles and Angel are on rather good terms) then opens up a canon/non-canon ambiguity which leaves, in my opinion, space for the legitimation of fanfiction, which broadens the number of tales and interpretations of Buffy almost to infinity. Even now, I imagine Buffy fanfiction is still being written faster than a single human being could read it.

That's one of the interesting things - it seems to me far easier to learn Ancient Greek than to learn Buffy, not least because Buffy as an entity has more words in it.

However, I'd suggest that a part of Buffy's richness is its interinvolvement with other texts, both its own deviant (non-mainstream?) readings (the Spander moment in Season 7, say) and those of others. So, while it is perfectly possible to enjoy This Year's Model or Season 4 without being aware of The Modern Prometheus, I would suggest that awareness of the one informs reception of the other, and vice versa. In rhizome terms, they are flat and entwined, perhaps.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:46 / 17.05.05
There's a general tendency among occultists to consider a God or Goddess as a single unchanging monolithic thing. Zeus is simply Zeus, with no variation or discrepancy to his personality and range of influence.

Well that's exactly the attitude which we've been critiquing earlier - which also ties in with the notion that all entities are anthropomorphic, discrete individuals (and therefore 'real' individuals). The very fluidity of - for example - deities becoming other deities is a recurrent theme in Hindu religiousity - there's a story in the Mahabhagvata Purana for example where Kali appears on earth as Krishna, and Shiva appears as Radha. Lucky Liquid made a very striking point on this thread when he noted that:

In my understanding, all the various God and Goddess names in Hinudism are in fact, verbs, not nouns. They denote activites and expressions of the underlying god-reality, not distinct "individuals".

Anyone used to the rather rigid geneaological approach to deities in western esotericism is in for a rough time when approaching the gods & goddesses of the Indian subcontinent.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:23 / 17.05.05
Anyone used to the rather rigid geneaological approach to deities in western esotericism is in for a rough time when approaching the gods & goddesses of the Indian subcontinent.

I think that's potentially a little unfair, most obviously because my pantheon's better than yours yar boo sucks. Sorry, start again.

Genealogy is certainly very important to Greek mythology, just as family and tribal membership was vital to early Greek society, but the unity that people tend to identiify as "Greek" (or, God help us, "Graeco-Roman) is anything but - they are a motley collection of deities, spirits and cult heroes gathered up from a Greek(ish) sphere of influence that at various times extended to Marseilles in the West and India in the East (no, honest. Probably. It's hard to tell). At different times different attempts were made to impose order on this insane quilt, and some of those attempts were more successful than others (Homer's anthropomorphic deities), but even the relatively limited sources we have - Proclus on the cyclics, Apollodorus, Homer, pretty much everyone else at various points - contradict each other.

Key elements here are geography, local cult and syncretism. Geography sees different deities being worshipped, and being worshipped as different things and in different ways - your classic here is the spread of what apppears to be some form of Isis-worship in the Eleusinian mysteries in Athens, the tales of the march of the worship of Dionysus across Greece, the Orphic elements (Thracian, I think - you get some weird stuff about an Orphic/Thracian shamanic figure being Pythagoras' slave).

This is then complicated by local cult - some gods, while generally accepted as divine, are considered _more_ divine in certain places. This is often a place with a historico-mythical connection to the entity in question - Apollo is credited with killing the (cthonic) Python in Delphi, Athene with patronage of Athens. In other places, the line of human and divine is blurred - in the Peloponnese, f'r example, you've got reasonably convincing evidence of an active cult that worshipped Helen - the poet Stesichorus appears to have written two poems, possibnly for performance north and south of the isthmus, one criticising Helen's lack of morals and the other rejecting this previous finding and claiming that she was in Egypt throughout the entire Trojan War, a story picked up by Euripides as well.

Syncretism, as you know, is the process whereby local divinities acquire the properties and characteristics of more broadly known divinities as they come into contact with each other. It's a kind of divine instantiation of Occam's razor, I suppose, except that rather than compressing to a single deity you usually ended up with a multi-purpose deity in some ways discrete from both minor and major deity.

Bruno mentioned epithets above in the context of Aphrodite, and they are useful. Just as Schrondinger taught us that observing a cat resoolves its state, naming a deity actually creates a different kind of deity. Given the odd origins of some of the deities to start with, this can get very confusing indeed. So, Zeus is the father of the gods. He is also something outside the gods, either a transcendent divinity or a force equating to fate that possibly not even Zeus himself can buck (boulder, meet God). He is also the regulating force of various institutions - as Zeus Basileus, Zeus Xeinios and Zeus Hiketesios are simultaneously Zeus being appealed to in different capacities, and also sort of different kinds of Zeus, and also personifications of instantiating principles on which the society that created them functioned. This ties into the idea of Hindu deities as verbs-not-nouns, I guess, in some ways - Greek deities are nouns, but often quite a lot of nouns...

So, yes.
 
 
*
20:00 / 17.05.05
I would add the Mater/Kybele complex as another example of the often overlooked complexity of "Greek" deities. She entered the Greek sphere from Phrygia in the 6th c. BCE, and was conflated with Rhea, with survivals of an indigenous tradition called Meter Theion, and sometimes with Artemis and other goddesses of the wilds.

One difference I see here is that the deities in the examples given for India are fluid in the emic perspective (the narratives told by the practitioners), whereas Kybele appears more fluid from the etic perspective (archaeology and history as "known" by outside scholars). But even in the Greek emic perspective (that is, surviving Greek literature) Kybele is seen as fluid and embodying several contradictory truths. For instance, Rhea and Artemis are not the same figure in Greek myth, but Kybele can be either or both of them, sometimes in the same story. And the Pausanias account of Agdistis/Rhea/Kybele and Attis/Adonis is rather complex in that regard as well.

Of course, I suspect trouser is probably referring more to the way modern western esotericism has popularly seen/used the Greek pantheon, which does tend to oversimplify such complexities, than the actual ancient practice. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
 
TaylorEllwood
01:05 / 18.05.05
Tell me more about subvocal theory please. I think I have an idea of what you're talking about, but I'd rather get a sense of your meaning first, to see if what I have in mind rings true with it.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:41 / 18.05.05
I suspect trouser is probably referring more to the way modern western esotericism has popularly seen/used the Greek pantheon, which does tend to oversimplify such complexities

Indeed I am. And lest I be thought to be dragging this already tangled discussion in yet another direction - it's these local differences/variations which interest me in relation to characters drawn from popular culture. Gypsy (and others) have posited the notion that pop-culture characters can be viewed as 'updates' of older characters - effectively making them old wine in new bottles. But, I wonder, do pop-culture characters follow the same pattern in the sense that over time, they will themselves be subsumed in 'newer' representations, and will we see local/geographical variations of them appearing in different cultures? Further, will they merge with other mythic characters? Would Buffy, over time, take on some of the characteristics of, say, Pippi Longstocking in Germany?

I would guess not. I referred to Simon Danser's book on myths a few pages back. Danser makes a distinction between mediated productions (i.e. television shows) and folkloric productions (primarily transmitted through oral retellings). Successful instances of both can be effective due to the narrative's combination of specificity and ambiguity - a point that dear old Dr. Johnson made back in the 18th century. So Buffy is an effective narrative because it presents characters/situations which are specific enough that we can identify with them, and yet at the same time ambiguous enough so that we can fill in the 'gaps' with our own phantasies, dreams and desires. However, with respect to shows like Buffy, there is also the issue of consistency expectation.

here's a rather intriguing article which examines consistency expectation by borrowing the notion of diagenetic spaces from geology:

When fans enter into a programs diagenetic space, whether to consume or to create, they rely upon the assumptions of that space remaining recognizably constant. Entire books have been written by Star Trek fans detainling the precise coordinates of fictional stellar systems, and other books exist which point out the times when those codes are broken -- "blooper" books are not merely an effort to elicit humor; they are also an expression of betrayal from fans who have come to depend upon the mythological system portrayed by the show, and their sense of dismay is tinged with both pride at their own ability to hold those diagenetic rule-sets constant, and annoyance at the producers' inability to do so.

Which leads me to suggest that mediated mythologies may not be as flexible - in some ways - as folkloric productions. Consider Slash fiction. There's no problem with slashing, say Buffy & Faith, or Xander & Spike, but can Buffy ever become (even temporarily) a man? I'd suggest that gender-play (a very common mytheme found in a variety of folkloric narratives) of this kind would be considered too much of a departure from the 'rules' of the Buffverse.
thoughts?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:54 / 18.05.05
I think you're right, if we're talking about slash and fan fiction. But I'd speculate that if we're talking about living magical practice, then these things are probably a lot more flexible. I reckon if you really worked with the image of Buffy on a day-to-day basis and internalised that relationship, it would start to take on a life of its own. The version of Buffy you relate to would probably become fairly unique to you and diverge further and further from the canon.

This process does take place within fiction, but it tends to be regulated by the fact that fiction is generally intended for consumption by an audience - so it has to remain recognisable and stay within certain defined parameters in order to be accepted as Buffy fan fiction, or whatever. Less so with Buffy as a magical ally, because it's generally a going to be a much more private and personal process. I daresay Buffy/Pipi Longstocking syncretism could take place a lot easier within a person's magical work than it could within the context of fan fiction.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:12 / 18.05.05
but can Buffy ever become (even temporarily) a man?

Oh, Hell, yeah. I've never seen that particular version, but gender-impossible activities by use of science or magic occur in science/magic-oriented slash all the time. Mpreg (male characters getting pregnant and having babies) is probably the stand-out example.

However, you might argue that at that point the characterisrtics of this fanfic Buffy is so far from ur-Buffy that the relationship no longer serves to carry resonance.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:04 / 18.05.05
Most Greek myths exist in a lot of versions differing from place to place

I think what I'm getting at is less the question of whether local versioning of deity actually took place, which seems to be a fairly safe bet, and more to do with how this versioning may have been considered by worshippers. I'm interested in whether this idea we have in our culture of the Gods as fixed and finite things has actually got any precedent in the polytheistic cultures we apply it to. Or if the worship of these God/desses might have taken place with a similar level of flexibility to what you find in religions like Vodou, where it is widely accepted that deity will express itself through many forms and aspects.

He is also the regulating force of various institutions - as Zeus Basileus, Zeus Xeinios and Zeus Hiketesios are simultaneously Zeus being appealed to in different capacities, and also sort of different kinds of Zeus, and also personifications of instantiating principles on which the society that created them functioned.

This sounds very close to the sort of thing I'm getting at. Could you talk a little more about that? What do the various aspects of Zeus you list there actually do? What differentiates them from one another? It sounds quite similar to the example I gave above of the different kinds of Erzulie, each one functioning in a different capacity and each one personifying some specific element of the culture and society they exist within. Is that a fair parallel?

Is there any evidence about how worshippers of Zeus thought about these different aspects? Did the different versions exist as competing localised forms, with worshippers arguing and disputing the essential nature of Zeus from village to village? Or was it generally accepted that Zeus has many faces, so if you wanted to appeal to him to address one problem you would call on this particular version, and for a different situation you might call to him in a different aspect?
 
 
Bruno
10:15 / 18.05.05
Taylor:
Tell me more about subvocal theory please. I think I have an idea of what you're talking about, but I'd rather get a sense of your meaning first, to see if what I have in mind rings true with it.

It is very slight movement of the vocal chords which can't be heard. We all do it when we read an alphabet or syllabic script (but not ideograms). Subvocalization and reading on wikipedia (short article).

Watson, an old school behaviorist, proposed that all thought is subvocal (i.e. that all thought is just talking to ourselves subvocally, and therefore all thought is linguistic). The experiment that disproved that all thought is subvocal is described here. But some thought is subvocal, or to be more accurate: either a. some thought is accompanied by subvocal movement or b. some subvocal movement is accompanied by thought.

What exactly did you mean by the sabotager? Is it your term?
 
 
illmatic
10:27 / 18.05.05
I have nothing to add, I suspect, but Good Gods, this is a good thread. With regard to the Greek gods were talking about, I wonder is anyway aware of Western practioners being aware of, or following, this kind of multi-faceted approach? I'm thinking of Crowley here - would he have been aware of the potential richness and multiplicity of the Gods he was invoking?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:47 / 18.05.05
But I'd speculate that if we're talking about living magical practice, then these things are probably a lot more flexible.

Indeed. And even a cursory look at Indian religiosity will, I think, demonstrate the heterogeneity of approaches to deities and their related practices. I'd suggest that Kuhn's phrase - the disciplinary matrix (by which he refers to the interrelationship of theories/models - both public & private, approaches, practices - performances even) is a useful term in this respect.

I mentioned the Ramayana earlier. The protagonist Ram is understood to be an avatara of Vishnu, and he is often revered as a moral exemplary. However, Ram is also recognised to be flawed in respect to his treatment of his ever-loving wife Sita, which many Hindus, over the centuries, have felt to be overly harsh. So there have been numerous attempts to revise the narrative of Ramayana in order to 'reform' Ram's behaviour and thus rewrite/redefine his relationship with Sita. Moreover, in the region of Mithila (from which Sita came), its still customary for people to honour Sita in marriage rites, but not Ram, due to his treatment of her.
What's interesting about Hindu deities is the relationship between deva and devotee is highly complex. The devas are not generally thought of as all-powerful and infallible. When they manifest, they are as equally subject to dharma as human beings. Thus, in some versions of Mahabharata, following the great battle of Kurukshetra, Krishna is cursed by Gandhari, the mother of the Kauravas (who are all dead) that he too will witness the death of his children and die at the hands of a low-caste man - and Krishna accepts this curse with equinamity. Also, humans can influence the devas through devotions and ascetic practices. Again, in some versions of Ramayana, the 'big bad' Ravana, is a devotee of Shiva. In rural areas, its not uncommon for villagers to with-hold food offerings and worship to local deities when they fail to answer prayers.

Of course, conflict does occurr between groups of devotees. In the medieval era for example, there was great rivalry between devotees of Vishnu and devotees of Shiva - and some scholars see the emergence of Hanuman as a popular deity as an attempt at reconciliation between the two schools.

A final point is that this religious diversity allows for the 'creation' of new devas. A fairly recent example of this is the devi Santoshi Ma. Santoshi Ma shot from relative obscurity to stardom virtually overnight due to a highly-successful film made in the mid-seventies. It featured a 'dispute' Santoshi and the devis Lakshmi, Parvati and Brahmani - and at the end revealed that the dispute was in actuality a 'test' of Santoshi's devotion - that Santoshi is their grand-daughter and thus one of them. Acccording to devotees of Santoshi interviewed by Stanley Kurtz, Santoshi Ma is not considered new or indeed seperate from other Indian goddesses, and notes that she is frequently called upon in all-night festivals where devotees become possessed by her.

More on the relationship between Santoshi and possession here

Even more recently, there's Aidsamma, 'created' by a science teacher in the village of Menasikyathannahalli, as part of an AIDS-awareness campaign. What's interesting here is that an American researcher came across the story and visited the village in order to find out more, and (as many villagers had never seen an American before) found herself becoming part of the story.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:02 / 18.05.05
I reckon if you really worked with the image of Buffy on a day-to-day basis and internalised that relationship, it would start to take on a life of its own. The version of Buffy you relate to would probably become fairly unique to you and diverge further and further from the canon.

It'd be useful if someone could perhaps give an experiental account which confirms this proposition. I've been a devotee of Shiva (on and off) for many years, and have interacted with 'him' in many ways (ritual, dream, vision, dialogue, dance, art, etc.) and thus encountered him in various aspects. But alongside the practice, I've continually read up on the deva through the many texts (both traditional and modern). Given that the diagenetic space (I like that phrase!) with regard to Siva is pretty wide to begin with, I can't honestly say that my experience of Siva has departed widely from his range of representations, though of course my practice has been shaped by my personal interests & identifications.
 
 
TaylorEllwood
14:29 / 18.05.05
Hello Bruno,

Thanks for sharing with me.

Watson, an old school behaviorist, proposed that all thought is subvocal (i.e. that all thought is just talking to ourselves subvocally, and therefore all thought is linguistic). The experiment that disproved that all thought is subvocal is described here. But some thought is subvocal, or to be more accurate: either a. some thought is accompanied by subvocal movement or b. some subvocal movement is accompanied by thought.

What exactly did you mean by the sabotager? Is it your term?


The subvocal could definitely play a role in sabotage, because it can be used to program yourself or for that matter another person. whisper, subvocally, someone's name when that person is near you and see if the person reacts. I've doen that before and have sometimes gotten reactions.

Anycase, as far as I know sabotager is my own term and what it refers to is the tendency to sabotage yourself when in your situations you don't want to be in. The sabotage takes place through actions on your part, which on the surface may seem innocent, but consequently such actions get the person in trouble and lead to a situation where the person is ejected from where s/he did not want to be in the first place, but where such a person did not feel s/he had the power to do this by him/her self.
 
 
illmatic
14:33 / 18.05.05
Well, here’s Taylor’s Invoking Buffy article, though I would like to hear from someone who’s had a long term relationship with a PC entity. There's also a Buffy ritual in Julian Vayne's section of Now That's What I Call Chaos Magick (though this read like camp theatre to me.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find a figure like this becoming a mask of the psyche as I occasionally dream of pop culture figures (but never, ever, famous *cough* reality based martial artists. That would just be ridiculous). If you're involved to the extent of writing fan fic it'd seem an easy step to cross over into your dreams. Any slash writers here like to comment?
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:35 / 18.05.05
a thread could be started, a pop culture figure voted on by those that wished to participate in recording interactions and experiences.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:37 / 18.05.05
a pop culture figure voted on by those that wished to participate in recording interactions and experiences

The short list could be televised on channel 4 on sunday nights and viewers could phone in...
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:02 / 18.05.05
or text.
 
 
Bruno
10:19 / 20.05.05
The subvocal could definitely play a role in sabotage, because it can be used to program yourself or for that matter another person. whisper, subvocally, someone's name when that person is near you and see if the person reacts. I've doen that before and have sometimes gotten reactions.

Anycase, as far as I know sabotager is my own term and what it refers to is the tendency to sabotage yourself when in your situations you don't want to be in. The sabotage takes place through actions on your part, which on the surface may seem innocent, but consequently such actions get the person in trouble and lead to a situation where the person is ejected from where s/he did not want to be in the first place, but where such a person did not feel s/he had the power to do this by him/her self.


You make a lot of sense, I have definitely done that before. Being apparently innocent but setting up a negative effect for another person who doesn't realize it.

I thought by the sabotager you might have meant the part of ourselves that subconsciously works against the things we want, the most obvious example if you are hitting on a girl you really like and for some reason you say all the wrong things.

Burroughs has an essay called 'Control' in the book 'The Job' which talks about this kind of self-sabotage among other things. There is also an essay on subvocal speech and ideograms if I remember well.

=bruno
 
 
TaylorEllwood
14:27 / 21.05.05
Greeting all,

I've started up a thread on a pop culture entity since one of oyu mentioned the idea of working with one for an extended period of time. come on over and join the fun.
 
 
Z. deScathach
10:48 / 26.05.05
*bump*

Okie Dokie, since people are apparently discussing the correctness of Pop Culture magick over in the working thread, I've bumped this so that the discussion, (or fight), can go on here. Things got said, hot got under collar. It seems this is an issue that don't wanna die. The problem is, the pop culture working thread isn't the place to hash it out, so here I am. Oh, btw, I gotta sleep, but I'll be back.

My personal view is that magick workers that work in non traditional ways have just as much value as those that work in traditional ways. Logic dictates that even traditional workings did not exist at the start of the human race, perhaps with the exception of base shamanic techniques. All of the pantheons that we now work with appeared at some point in history, and those who worked with them would have been seen as radically different than those who worked with the present cultural archetypes.

To me, the whole idea of saying that workers that use non-traditional methods are in some way personally inferior to those that don't not only misses the point, but produces needless divisiveness. It becomes just one more war in the spectacle of wars. One more big arguement that gets in the way of things getting done.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:28 / 26.05.05
mr z,

i think it becomes also a question of politics, those working with capitalist deities could be seen as supporting capitalism. those working in sacred traditions especially those belonging to colonised peoples are in someway attempting to make recompsense for there ancestors actions, or perhaps trying to understand something or address something within themselves relating to the respective culture they are studying. for me for example studying hindu culture, to a limited degree african culture, has helped me address some inherant racist attitudes i grew up with.

adopting pop cultural icons and there attendent myths could actually do the opposite for example, reinforce racist notions, sexism, homophobia. some of those values it could be argued are still inherant in some pop cultural icons. also by venerating capitalist icons and giving energy and devotion too them are you not just giving and feeding yourself too that capital system even more than you already have too to live? are you not reinforcing a consumer society in which one is either consuming or being consumed? a vampiric structure that feeds from the bottom to the top.
 
 
Seth
11:47 / 26.05.05
That’s not exactly doing justice to what’s been discussed so far in this thread.

My main point in this thread has been that as soon as you accept the theory that the origin of Gods is in the mind of man then you deny yourself the results that accord with the traditional definition of the term God.

Because your beliefs will have effected the results you’re likely to achieve or allow.

At this point you may as well stop calling what you’re working with a God, because it no longer fits the definition. Indeed, considering the belief that Gods are a product of man set the frame for these experiences, and that the experience of pop-culture entities is comparable, it’s not such a leap as to imagine that the two can be conflated. As many practitioners have done.

However, if you believe that Gods have their own existence outside of humanity and that they are beyond our ability to comprehend, then you’ll have significantly different results which are more akin to accounts from religious writings.

And it’s actually extremely apparent when you track back from the results of the practitioners who have the different sets of beliefs. They will have results that accord to the beliefs with which they originally operated.

Now what seems clear from this thread is many of the posters who are advocates of working with traditional Gods have a both/and approach. I’ve personally done the pop deity work, and I’ve also worked with Gods with the belief that they are something bigger, more phenomenal and more mysterious than us in the universe rather than the product of collective human enterprise (to quote GL).

I’ve noticed that there is a marked difference in the type of results from working with both. It’s not a case of superior or inferior. It’s a case of noticing a difference, a difference that leads me to suspect that those practitioners who believe that Gods are created by men therefore have not experienced deity in nearly the same way.

This is why I pissed people off earlier in the thread by my arrogant statements that as soon as you subscribe wholeheartedly to the belief that man made the Gods then you deny yourself the experience of what a God is truly like. I’ve yet to read or listen to an account that disconfirms that hypothesis.

To put this in simple terms, this is an instance in which the need to intellectually understand something before you work with it interferes with the type of results that you’re going to get. To reiterate my point from earlier, my bloody minded, irrational and impossible-to-prove beliefs concerning Gods gives me access to results that practitioners without those beliefs don’t seem to have had. On the reverse side I have also used the comfortably post-modern, explicable beliefs when working with other beings.

So this isn’t about superiority, it’s about different types of experience. I’m still of the belief that there are many practitioners who haven’t experienced the Godwork they think they have because their theories prevent them from having it. Which is fine if you don’t want those experiences, just don’t confuse them with mine and say they're the same when all indications seem to show that they're not.
 
 
Chiropteran
13:23 / 26.05.05
(Seth, just to be clear, am I correct that that was a response to Z.deScathach and not wolven angels?)
 
 
Seth
13:36 / 26.05.05
Lepidopteran: Yeah, that's right.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:03 / 26.05.05
Z, I really can't argue with you about this, because I'm simply not saying what you claim that I'm saying. You seem to have a really simplified understanding of this debate.

Seth has pretty much nailed what it is that myself and others are trying to get at. It's not a question of "inferiority" and "superiority" but an observed experiential difference that people are commenting on. It's almost like two different areas of magical practice.

My experiences of working with pop culture entities, or even older entities approached in post-modern terms as "thoughtforms" or "archetypes from the subconscious", have been fundamentally different at every level from my experiences of interacting with Gods as if they are Gods in all the primal, terrifying, wake up screaming at 4 in the morning, stay up all night in mystic revelation, witness impossible things happening in front of your eyes, sense of the word. So what's happening there? How can this be?

I've done plenty of both types of magic, and it really does seem that the former approach often sets certain limits on the type of experience you end up having. I think this is quite an interesting observation, particularly when my experiences also seem to be shared by other people on here, who have come to those conclusions independently.

It's interesting that the most vocal of opponents to this line of thinking are often those who seem to cling so dearly to the postmodern/chaos magic party line that the concept of approaching deity without a comfy postmodern condom is totally anathema. Unfortunately, this means they are highly unlikely to have ever had the specific type of experience that the other side of the argument are trying to describe. If you are unwilling to interact with deity as Deity, then you're not going to get the same sort of processes working in the same sort of way. Which is a shame, because as an area of magical practice, it's really amazing stuff.
 
  

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