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Underground > Comic Books >

House of M

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21:30 / 02.11.05

You'll still keep buying though, won't you, Fanboy?

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

22:00 / 02.11.05

Quick HoM #8 Thoughts...

Despite some complaints about the length of build up I really dug it overall... As far as "permanent" changes go, let's see:

Wolverine has all of his memories.

Hawkeye appears to be alive (not a surprising turn of events).

The Xorn is/is not Magneto thing seems resolved in a way that is still lame but 100x less lame than "he was an impostor".

Iceman, Scarlet Witch and Magneto are powerless. Xavier is powerless or dead.

And... well... ther'es around a million less mutants. Literaly.

Thoughts? Hmmm. I thought it was, overall, engrossing and well handled. There's so many good little character moments. Eventwise, I don't know if I can get behind the "Decimation" or not... it certianly derails much of the stuff from Morrison's run* but most writers weren't really doing anything with those concepts (or were doing it poorly) anyway.

It certianly has me interested in what happens next. There's so much story potential for Emma, Doctor Strange and Wolverine, at least. And I'm very curious about how the fall-out will work out... especially the ecosystem/evolutionary stuff.

*Although, it could be argued that it was nullifying Sublime that allowed this to happen.

rabideyemovement

22:39 / 02.11.05

I really enjoyed the last issue. Wolverine's memories flooding back opens up all kinds of possibilities for his writers. And I always liked the Marvel U better before there were so many mutants and the ugly ones had to live underground.
I bet the next time we see Hawkeye, he will be royally pissed off.
I'm wondering if Whedon's Astonishing will ever fall into the post-House-M continuity. I hope to see him use the decimation plot in his book.

22:43 / 02.11.05

The Exiles are on a World Tour now, but just before they start that storyline, they let us catch up with Beak and Angel.

SPOILERS:

SPOILERS:

SPOILERS:

Beak and Angel are human, and so are their kids. Except Tito. Yes, probably that Tito.

It's a nice touch.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

22:53 / 02.11.05

That makes me both kind of smile and cry at the same time. I guess it was too much to hope that he'd be one of the 198 or whatever.

And wasn't Tito the Beak's grandson? Still, it's a nice touch.

The ad placement in HoM #8 was refuckingdiculous, though.

Keith, like a scientist

23:51 / 02.11.05

i liked the issue overall, but...it's sort of pointless, too. There is just no possible way that Magneto will remain powerless for more than 6 months. Kind of zaps the intrigue out of the whole thing.

rabideyemovement

00:00 / 03.11.05

zaps the intrigue? Is there no intrigue in a story where Magneto must live as a flatscan? I'm looking forward to this. Magneto is one of the most complex and interesting characters in the Marvel U. He's been hero and villain. Now he has the opportunity to examine his philosophy up close as a human again. This will be good. I'm assuming the Professor is baseline human as well.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

00:25 / 03.11.05

If you discount events because "they won't last", then why are you reading franchise superhero comics? This isn't meant as an attack, but the "well, that can't last so it isn't interesting" attitude is one I see a lot. It's franchise capes; nothing will last forever.

I have no doubt that eventually Maggy will be re-powered and there will be more mutants in a year or three. But I had no doubt that Mags would appear after his decpitation, that Spider Man's black costume wouldn't last and that Superman would rise from the grave. It's the nature of franchise capes.

Re: the depowering of Maggy... I kind of like it. I mean, throughout House of M, Magneto has been pretty impotent with lits of sound anf fury but no real meaning... just like in Morrison's run.

I'll miss mutant culture and it's place in the MU something fierce, though.

Matthew Fluxington

02:39 / 03.11.05

That's nice. It'll be nicer when it's all totally retconned within two years. They made sure of that by depowering Iceman, Magneto, and Scarlet Witch.

What a total waste of time.

Matthew Fluxington

02:41 / 03.11.05

He's been hero and villain.

Will people please get over this? He's not a hero, he's a genocidal master-race fuckhead! It's totally creepy when people try to play the "hero" card with that guy.

Matthew Fluxington

02:49 / 03.11.05

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions - yeah, we know that very little is going to be permanent, which is why it's totally tedious when they go through with these moronic sweeping changes that derail the company's biggest franchise for a year or two. Why bother even publishing these stories? Why bother reading them? It just feels like they are cheating the other writers and the readers by making it more difficult to tell worthwhile stories out of the existing mythos. It's not playing nice with the communal toys, if you will.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

06:30 / 03.11.05

If there was something else going besides the physical change of mutants being depowered, I would agree with you, Mongoose, but the only effect this storyline was a baseline alteration of the status quo, that, like Matthew said is absolutely guaranteed to not last. The only footnote that House of M will ever really contribute in the long run (and this is a big if) is "Logan Remembered His Origin".

By comparison, the effect of something like Infinite Crisis seems to be more significant, because it's not about physical alterations, it's about perception. Short of claiming Max Lord was a robot (never say never), Wonder Woman's public perception is probably never going to go back to normal until she's replaced by Donna Troy some day, and even then...

That being said, I'm not entirely unintrested in taking a general pass at all the post-HoM mutant titles just to see what's happened to who, out of general curiosity, but it really doesn't have a leg to stand on when, aside from the barest minimum, every popular mutant in a current title still has his or her powers. Say what you will about Claremont, he fucked with the status quo non-stop during his run, from Storm's powers, to Psylocke's everything, to their HQ, to Xavier. It was a total free for all and no-one was safe.

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:42 / 03.11.05

Yes, in many ways he was the Geoff Johnzzz of his day.

Matthew Fluxington

11:55 / 03.11.05

No, in his original run Claremont changed the status quo in ways that were much more drastic but essentially played fair with the writers and didn't fuck with the BASIC CONCEPT OF THE SERIES, as House Of M has. It's totally retarded to think about how for the time being, the only mutants at Marvel are FUCKING SUPER HEROES. As if that's the only good way of telling stories with mutants! So ridiculous.

Mister Six, whom all the girls

11:57 / 03.11.05

That moment when Peter was asking for it to go away... that was my reaction.

Well... not that passionate or anything, but... yeah.

If the series had been longer, actually been reflected in all of the monthlies in a cohesive fashion so we could see how each character had been changed, that would have been something. The problem is that while certain characters got huge changing moments, their character or identity more or less stayed the same. Magneto sneered and pouted and posed, white flash, more of the same, white flash, more pouting and less posing. Bendis or Marvel editorialor whoever just didn't get behind this idea enough to really use it.

I know that the common complaint is 'it won't keep' and it is a valid one as in the past few years we've seen massive editorial changes that have the X-Men don leather civies in one issue and then denounce them as 'creepy' the next. There's no centralized vision in Marvel anymore and THAT is the main problem behind this story meaning anything in that how is Spider-Man going to convey he lived a fantasy life (which he also was miserable in) to his wife let alone the reader when Peter David has his own massive storyline going on?

Just as Millar's Wolverine storyline had no bearing on anything and after it was over no one spoke a word of it, so will this House of M change little and more importantly never get mentioned.

Being a Marvel Zombie back in the day, I hate to slam Marvel, but the company just has no idea what it wants to do. It even pumped a 'universe-changing' miniseries where the final issue was a veritable 'who's on first' routine between Iron Man and Spider-Man.

I'm sorry but if you enjoyed this you're lucky because it looks like tons of minis are coming your way but for me this was the nail in the coffin for my reading Marvel Comics. The stand-alone Wolverine, Cap and Black Panther issues were incredibly well done, but I just felt hosed.

House of M came out of nowhere (the only build-up being events that took place in Disassembled which barely crossed over into any of the other titles despite the cover proclamations... separated by a year of issues), was mentioned and reflected in hardly any issues (Bendis who is even writing Avengers doesn't bother to do a tie-in issue??) and then issolved into a flutter of off-shoots.

How sad.

Excelsior.

12:41 / 03.11.05

No iteration of the X-Verse has ever been very cohesive or stuck to for more than one writer at one go. Morrison did Old versus New; Lee seemed inclined to do whatever crazy Jerry-Springer-esque drama with robots and terrorists he could get away with; Lobdell had family issues and big cosmic-time-changing-things; Joe Casey did flamethrowers versus the X-Men; Claremont had the racial-allegory, Malcom X/Martin Luther King thing and the space opera thing and the family togetherness rise above the individual villain thing and Australian schools-out-for-the-summer lets kick the shit out of some cyborgs thing.
If you go by Austen, the basic tenet of X-Men is that nobody ever gets laid. Despite the bubbly psycho-stalker nurses, remarkably buff and self-conscious young heroic mutant leaders, and ex-hookers desperate for some blue velvet with a face and German accent.
Personally, I like Stan Lee's methodology and Grant Morrison's execution more than all the other long-term writers. There's some wonderful Claremont and some bad Claremont, but to state that there was any overall and cohesive ideology or thematic resonance to the whole bag of tricks?

14:47 / 03.11.05

>> I'm wondering if Whedon's Astonishing will ever fall into the post-House-M continuity. I hope to see him use the decimation plot in his book.

Whedon has said his run will use post House of M continuity, definitely.

>> Just as Millar's Wolverine storyline had no bearing on anything and after it was over no one spoke a word of it,

Not true, Millar’s run on Wolverine has been mentioned several times over in Bendis’ New Avengers, most specifically giving another justification for Wolvie joining the team (after killing a bunch of good guys while brainwashed, his public image needs some help). Hardly major major acknowledgment of it across the Marvel universe, but it is something. I think one or two of the ancillary X-Books might have had a line about people being a bit more scared of Logan than usual these days after his brainwashed killing spree.

Haven’t read HoM #8 yet, myself. Sounds like stuff actually happens in the final issue, which is refreshing when compared to the rest of the series.

rabideyemovement

15:08 / 03.11.05

"Will people please get over this? He's not a hero, he's a genocidal master-race fuckhead! It's totally creepy when people try to play the "hero" card with that guy."

I first picked up the X-titles in the mid-80's when Magneto was the school's professor (and leader of the New Mutants). He had freshly been acquitted in a war crimes trial, and he was coerced into promoting Xavier's dream during the headmaster's absence. He and Charlie used to work for the CIA also tracking down rogue Nazis after the war. It was his CIA handler that put a hit on Mags and ruined his faith in human government. He's a very complex character.
He has officially played the hero before (and hopefully will again someday) and his aims are usually noble, it's his methods that are extreme.

Besides... I hate to be the one to say it, but...

Matthew Fluxington

15:25 / 03.11.05

Yeah, but that's Magneto in 1985. The character has done some pretty horrible things in continuity since then, some of it on Claremont's watch.

Matthew Fluxington

15:29 / 03.11.05

Noble? How is aiming for the total subjugation and/or slaughter of the human race so that mutants (or more specifically, Magneto) can rule the world a NOBLE goal? The character is a megalomaniacal genocidal fuckhead, and has been so since the very beginning.

16:52 / 03.11.05

You'll still keep buying though, won't you, Fanboy?

WTF? I assume this was directed at me, since there's nobody in the thread named "Fanboy." I *didn't* buy it, actually. I haven't bought a single thing related to HOUSE OF M; I've only flipped through issues 1, 7, and 8 of the core mini. I haven't paid for a Marvel comic in quite some time, precisely *because* the build and story quality are often so very poor. It'd help if you'd turn your Righteous-Meter down a bit. Do I need to fax you the receipt for my copy of NIGHT FISHER to make my opinions valid?

That's not starting a flame war, honestly -- I'll say no more after this -- but Jesus, way to stink up the joint.

16:56 / 03.11.05

I actually enjoyed the build-up of this series but was entirely let down in the last issue. I'm not really for or against the changes, though giving Logan his memories is a good thing to explore, but I felt kind of gipped by the "finale". As someone who rarely picks up any X-titles these days, I feel like I just paid US$24 and I have no idea what actually happened. Oh Wanda is strolling through a market... okay... AND...???

I'm just don't care enough to go read all the Decimation crap to find out what actually changed. If the main idea of House of M was following the change through the Avengers and X-Men, is it really too much to ask to explain what has happened to the Avengers and X-Men without having to buy 20 more comics over the next two months???

Matthew Fluxington

16:57 / 03.11.05

I'm in the same boat with doyoufeelloved - I read a majority of the series, but I sure as hell would not buy it. Shoddy comics that can be read in three minutes at a comic shop = not a really good use of my money right now.

17:42 / 03.11.05

Why is everyone so upset at what happens to so and so characters in so and so universe? Yes we've all collectively established that these comics are awful, not worth buying and Brian Bendis should take a vacation already and return with Fortune and Glory 2.
Most of you are older than me and have been reading comics for much longer so can anyone explain when a crossover was ever good?
I'm not trying to mock anyone or belittle their sentiments but don't shitty stories, wrongheaded editorial mandate happen in every crossover every now and then some more wrongheaded than others?

Matthew Fluxington

18:13 / 03.11.05

I don't care if there are bad comics so much as I have a problem with altering the basic premise of a franchise so that it derails the series and damages good writers' ability to tell worthwhile stories with the characters.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:36 / 03.11.05

I'm out of this now but my opinion on stories being retconned has changed a little in recent years.

As someone who is vaguely interested in the stories but not enough to buy them, I find the idea of Magneto loosing his mutant status to be an interesting end to a story, whether or not they change it back down the road. What would be the shame would be if Magneto effectively disappeared from the comics until he gets his power back, I'd like some sort of story about his life amongst the normals, like a big version of that Mark Millar Ultimate story after World Tour where Charles talks to Erik.I'd also want some sort of acknowledgement by repowered Magneto that this experience has changed him, by turning him back to regular genocidal fuckhead would be a real lost opportunity.

Keith, like a scientist

20:48 / 03.11.05

If the story of Magneto was a novel with a definitive beginning, middle, and end, him losing his powers at the end would be a wonderful story. But his story is inherently perpetual (like almost all popular comic characters), and the constant upheaval of him being alive, good, dead, bad, cloned starts to really degrade his root character. We all know that in very short time Marvel will want him back as the main mutant villain, and his entire time as a regular human will likely have no lasting impact on him.

10:04 / 04.11.05

I don't care if there are bad comics so much as I have a problem with altering the basic premise of a franchise so that it derails the series and damages good writers' ability to tell worthwhile stories with the characters.

This is the point that seems to be being missed. It doesn't matter that the status quo has changed - yet again - and will be retconned, as all changes are. That's ongoing comics, that's the biggest probem with continuity. Go on for long enough and core concepts will always be undermined, and things will become a god awful mess. Fact o' life. What matters is when dull-headed editorial policy fucks with good creators.

What interests me, here, is the idea that Marvel might think that they are returning to core concepts, that mutants as an analogue for the civil/gay rights movement is better served when there are far fewer mutants in the Marvelverse than there were this time last year.

10:14 / 04.11.05

By the way, I think I should stress that I have no problem with Magneto losing his powers as part of a narrative, if that was the case I'd have a problem with how Morrison represented the character - because ultimately everything is going to be undermined/retconned/whatevered. Continuity insists that things will be fucked with, that's why I'm only loosely concerned with continuity between creative runs, and try to see changes in creative teams as pushing the reset button - it stops me from feeling that all the good work that has gone before counts for nothing. I suppose it's where you put your emphasis.
As much as you can pick the two apart, I'll take story (a self contained creative run, with a beginning, middle and end) over continuity anyday. This probably has something to do with how I read comics, in that I tend to follow creators and not characters.

Matthew Fluxington

11:58 / 04.11.05

At this point, I don't know why the writers even bother with Magneto unless they are receiving an editorial mandate to do so. People are better off coming up with new villains that deal with the similar issues, as Morrison did with Quentin Quire.

12:04 / 04.11.05

Absolutely, it's possibly a sign of the aging readership that new villains aren't more popular. As a kid I loved the endless procession of new evil weirdos.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:12 / 04.11.05

To be fair, Whedon & Morrison aside, recent X-Men writers' attempts to create new villains have hardly had glorious results. Mr Clean. The Church of cocking Humanity. Nightcrawler's dad, The Devil.

13:05 / 04.11.05

The Church of cocking Humanity. Nightcrawler's dad, The Devil.

Was that Austin? Fuckeye, that's awful.

13:37 / 04.11.05

It sure was Austen.

Bought #8 (the only issue I actually bought, the rest I read/skimmed in the store)....eh. The idea of spinning off the scientific principle that 'energy cannot be destroyed or created, it can only be moved around, so where did all the energy from various energy-related mutant powers go?' is kind of interesting.

The reveal of Wolvie remembering everything could have been written/executed/paced better, I thought...they went straight for the blatant full-page shot that tells you verbatim "I remember everything!" and then move on to another scene.

I used to think Copiel's art was really good, but his faces seem to be becoming increasingly more distorted and rectangular...ditto the upper bodies of most of the male characters.

Matthew Fluxington

17:44 / 04.11.05

Church of Humanity was actually created by Joe Casey. It was a bad idea to start with, and then Austin made it worse.

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