BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


US presidential debates

 
  

Page: 12(3)456

 
 
FinderWolf
03:29 / 06.10.04
Cheney clearly seemed uncomfortable when the moderator brought up his lesbian daughter, and I was impressed that Edwards praised Cheney's support of his daughter rather than going for the jugular on an attack, as he well could have at this point. Cheney seemed genuinely surprised at Edwards' compliment and his stunned "Thank you" was a rare moment of nice feelings betweent these two tonight.

I thought it was an unusual format that the two men were so physically close to each other, and they clearly broke the rule (well, Edward did in his first sentence) about not addressing each other directly and not looking directly at the other.

My "grade": Edwards, B+/A-. Cheney: solid B, maybe B+ if we want to take into account how the media will spin this.

(My grades for the first debate were: Kerry B+, Bush C/C+.)
 
 
lekvar
04:54 / 06.10.04
Ahhh, this is wonderful:

You'll recall that during the debate Edwards called Cheney on the kickbacks that Halliburton has been getting. Cheyney retorted that this was a distortion of the truth and that any interested parties would do well to go to factcheck.com

That's factcheck.com

Not factcheck.org which is a well-respected, non-partisan site run by the Annenburg Foundation.

factcheck.com now points to georgesoros.com a site run by the super-rich lefty liberal George Soros, and is dedicated to anti-Bush propaganda.

Brilliant.
 
 
charrellz
05:10 / 06.10.04
Here is a link to the transcript. Quote away!

I like this one
CHENEY: The senator has got his facts wrong. I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11, but there's clearly an established Iraqi track record with terror.

And the point is that that's the place where you're most likely to see the terrorists come together with weapons of mass destruction, the deadly technologies that Saddam Hussein had developed and used over the years.


Facts? FACTS? These are the guys who invaded a country on false pretenses, and are accusing other people of getting their facts wrong? And isn't it only the most likely place for terrorists to gather becasue there's a whole bunch of Americans with guns standing around?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:57 / 06.10.04
Does anyone have a link to a video? I'd like to see how this one played out, in the face of some extreme variance in the commentary...

I do hope the Dems take advantage of Cheney's claim never to have met John Edwards before; that was just dumb. It sends out the message that Bush/Cheney will lie about anything, in the expectation that they will not get caught - that they are not just mendacious, but mendacious and arrogant.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:34 / 06.10.04
Um...just to devil's advocate, how do you KNOW it's a lie that Cheney never met Edwards before?

There are lots of people in the Senate; I'm sure Cheney and Edwards have been in the same room many times, but perhaps it is true that they've never actually met in the personal, being introduced one-on-one sense.

Cheney's statement about AIDS - something like 'In Africa, many older and young adults are stricken and are dying from it...which means that there's not many people around to work' - made it seem like "Oh, the only reason it's a tragedy is it deprives a society of productive worker bees."

The media is honing in on the points I made earlier in this thread about Cheney's body, eye and hand language...very bad for Cheney.

That's awesome about factcheck.com!
 
 
FinderWolf
12:35 / 06.10.04
from the transcript:

>> The vice president, I'm surprised to hear him talk about records. When he was one of 435 members of the United States House, he was one of 10 to vote against Head Start, one of four to vote against banning plastic weapons that can pass through metal detectors.

>> He voted against the Department of Education. He voted against funding for Meals on Wheels for seniors. He voted against a holiday for Martin Luther King. He voted against a resolution calling for the release of Nelson Mandela in South Africa.

>> It's amazing to hear him criticize either my record or John Kerry's.


This was one of Kerry's strongest moments in showing the Prince of Darkness' true colors.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:37 / 06.10.04
Here's the direct quote from Cheney: HUMANS ARE NOTHING BUT BORG DRONES, MEANT TO BE PRODUCTIVE AND FUEL AN ECONOMY!!!

>> In some parts of the world, we've got the entire, sort of, productive generation has been eliminated as a result of AIDS, all except for old folks and kids -- nobody to do the basic work that runs an economy.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:42 / 06.10.04
The media seems to be spinning this debate mostly in Edwards' favor. One major news network guy said in minutes after the debate that they took a poll on what Americans' perceptions would be if Bush died somehow and Cheney became President, and 26% said they would be "Scared." The network newscaster laughed about that.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
13:03 / 06.10.04
i'm glad this is getting spinned to edwards (I think it's a bit generous to him, but...i'll take it).

largely he hit the right notes, but made a few major blunders (he caught most of them and corrected himself) and just seemed a bit uncomfortable sitting there.

cheney seemed pretty knowledgeable and in control. it was "impressive. most impressive." (I will not rest until everyone says 'Cheney Vader' when they refer to him.)

Peter Jennings referred to Edwards as Kerry within 5 minutes of the end of the debate...why do people keep flipping their names? I've noticed it a lot.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:11 / 06.10.04
>> "We are for more tax cuts for the middle class. They are for more tax cuts for multimillionaires," Edwards said. Cheney said there was a fundamental difference of opinion on tax policy, saying that the Kerry-Edwards plan would hurt small businesses.

Yeah..Cheney said 'small businesses' that make more than $200,000 per year (he put them in that category after Edwards listed his $200,000/year cutoff point for tax cuts). Sounds like a really small, struggling business to me!
 
 
FinderWolf
13:40 / 06.10.04
Vote on the MSNBC poll at:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/?GT1=5472

If that link doesn't work, go to www.msn.com's home page, click on the article about the VP debate, and scroll down about 3/4 of the way through the article, they have a poll to vote on. Currently it's something like 63% Edwards, 37% Cheney.
 
 
ibis the being
13:53 / 06.10.04
Cheyney retorted that this was a distortion of the truth and that any interested parties would do well to go to factcheck.com[...]Not factcheck.org which is a well-respected, non-partisan site run by the Annenburg Foundation.

I'm glad you went and checked that. I knew it was wrong when he said it but forgot to go check. Even if he'd said it right, wasn't that a weird move? FactCheck.org has plenty of dirt on everyone, but generally speaking the Bush Admin has more to lose (they lied about war, etc) than the Kerry campaign (they stretch the truth a bit to win).

Interestingly enough, immediately after the debate CNN called it a draw, Fox News called it a Cheney win but not by all that much, but MSNBC claimed Cheney had "obliterated" Edwards. Though they say you can't really draw conclusions until a couple of days have passed, that makes me think MSNBC is not to be trusted.

I agree that Cheney's body language was bad, but I think what may have been worse is the way he repeatedly ignored the question put to him in order to attack Kerry and Edwards apropos of nothing. Example -
IFILL: Mr. Vice President, 90 seconds.
CHENEY: Gwen, I want to go back to the last comment, and then I'll come back to Israel-Palestine.
The reason they keep trying to attack Halliburton is because they want to obscure their own record.


Personally, I have to admit I thought it was a draw as far as how it might after fence-sitters. Edwards was of course far more personable and had better things to say about their plans for the presidency - but I think Cheney's spouting off of "facts" and voting records might have come off as pretty damning. Edwards couldn't possibly explain in 30 sec how the last 15 factoids Cheney spat at him were distortions or lies, every time. I can see Undecideds sitting home saying, "Well, I hate the guy, but he's got some points there. What about those voting records?" After all, this is the way Undecideds have been thinking - "I don't like Bush, but Kerry hasn't proven himself." Which - you may already know how I feel about that (*cough*asinine).
 
 
grant
14:14 / 06.10.04


Here's Cheney and Edwards sitting (well, standing next to their seats) beside each other at the National Prayer Breakfast, 2001. Apparently, Cheney thanked him by name. They also met a few other times (check the link).

It means very little, but it seems to be one of the horses people are riding right now.

I listened to the debate on the radio, and Cheney has a much more solid, warm voice. Comforting, even though I knew he was lying about some things. And I was impressed that he didn't always use the time given to him to speak.
 
 
ibis the being
14:15 / 06.10.04
Um...just to devil's advocate, how do you KNOW it's a lie that Cheney never met Edwards before?

It certainly appears to be a lie.



(Daily Kos has another example up as well.)
 
 
ibis the being
14:16 / 06.10.04
oops.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:16 / 06.10.04
Cheney sounds WARM to you...? Wow, man...

Saw this on a blog site and thought it was pretty accurate:

>> One guy closed the debate with a message of hope and promise, the other of fear and diminished expectations of life in american by a false sense of security. You fought like a champ Count Cheney, but you had no answers, no alternatives, and a complete lack of class and decorum. Edwards may be a little wet behind the ears but at this stage in the game, we could all use someone who isn't a career politician in the mix.

So we know it was a total lie that Edwards has never met Cheney. Real warmth there.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:38 / 06.10.04
Other blogs I've looked at said Cheney voting against MLK Day as a holiday looked pretty horrible. One guy said "Man, just put the hood on him..."!
 
 
FinderWolf
15:17 / 06.10.04
I'm also glad Edwards brought up Paul Bremmer's recent comments, even if Bremmer himself is now backpedaling like mad on those statements.
 
 
ibis the being
15:33 / 06.10.04
Just thought I'd add that I think it's a good idea to go ahead and check out (the real) FactCheck, since they're covering the VP debate. As you or I may have suspected, Cheney misspoke and/or lied quite a bit. Edwards was a little off a couple of times.

It's true that it doesn't "matter" whether Cheney and Edwards have met before. But IMO it says something about Cheney's ability to just lie and lie and lie with that attitude of total confidence and authority. Add that lie to the misspoken FactCheck address, and it's almost as though nothing true can come out of his mouth!
 
 
charrellz
16:33 / 06.10.04
Just for keith:



I wish I had an insightful comment to go along with this to make my post meaningful, but I don't. Other than that I've been seeing some huge differences in poll results - from Edwards winning with 65% to Cheney winning with 55%. I'm always amazed how two people watch the same event and see something different...
 
 
FinderWolf
16:57 / 06.10.04
Love the Darth Vader/Cheney comparison shots!!!

And yeah, the media spin on this seems to be that most viewers thought after the dust settled, it was basically a draw, since some feel it was an even tie, Edwards supporters said he came out as the victor by a small margin and Cheney supporters said their man came out the victor by a small margin.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:58 / 06.10.04
ALTHOUGH, the media is also saying that Edwards kept on a strong offensive and the Bush admin, after these 2 debates, is more on the defensive than they've ever been before, which is good news. Plus, Edwards is far more charming, persuasive and personable than Cheney, also good news for the Dems.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:13 / 06.10.04
Yahoo is now running a main story on their home page an article titled "Edwards and Cheney have met before". YES!!! The article slams Cheney pretty bad. The Bush people say these 2 meetings of record were merely "inconsequential meetings."

Priceless!
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
19:24 / 06.10.04
Chukster, I love you! Say it with me "Cheney. Vader."

Now all at once: "Cheney Vader."

Hurray! Brilliant comparison shots.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:09 / 06.10.04
I wonder if some rabid Star Wars fan has ever made a Vader/Palpatine '04 campaign bumper sticker...?
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:33 / 06.10.04
No, but I saw a pic of Vader and a cronie with a "Re-Elect the Empire" slogan on it...

And then, I just found this.
 
 
lekvar
21:08 / 06.10.04
Yeah, someone made an Episode I sign for the protests before the "liberation" began. Really high quality work, and funny as hell. Let's hope we never see a spoof Episode III.
 
 
Simplist
21:18 / 06.10.04
All the online polls I've seen said Edwards came out on top - some say around 67% Edwards won, 33% Cheney won, some say more like 55% Edwards won, 35% Cheney won, 10% it's a tie.

Pardons if someone's already pointed this out (I'm just now making my way through the thread), but the online insta-polls all favor Edwards primarily because Daily Kos, Atrios, and the rest of the liberal bloggerati, along with Air America radio, directed their readers/listeners to vote for Edwards in as many online polls as possible. The various sites posted direct links to the polls as they appeared. One Air America host was even suggesting people clear the cookies from their browsers after voting so they could vote multiple times per poll. Of course, right-leaning sites were doing the same, but there are far fewer of them, and their readers are less fervent at present (though look for the situation to reverse itself if Kerry wins).
 
 
Simplist
21:33 / 06.10.04
factcheck.com now points to georgesoros.com a site run by the super-rich lefty liberal George Soros, and is dedicated to anti-Bush propaganda.

What's really funny about this is that during the debate Factcheck.com actually pointed to a spam portal, obviously set up to snag people who were trying to get to Factcheck.org; you know, the kind of place that has links to spammer offers (in this case "diplomas from prestigious non-accredited universities") and tries to reset your homepage to some online casino or other. Within an hour of the debate ending it was mysteriously redirecting hits to GeorgeSoros.com. Despite initial rumors that Soros had immediately bought the domain, or that Dem operatives had hacked it, it turns out the spammers in question are either Bush-haters or Kerry supporters (or both)...

Cheney Slip Sends Surfers to Wrong Site

Funny as all that is, I still wish Cheney had gotten it right. All but one of the stories on the front page of Factcheck.org was about various misstatements and misrepresentations by Bush, and the story Cheney wanted you to read (the one about Halliburton) addressed issues other than those discussed in the debate, ie. utterly failed to support the points he was citing it in support of. Still, I can't seem to access Factcheck.org right now, so I guess this second round of coverage is getting them more attention than their site can handle.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:51 / 07.10.04
from MoveOn.org, a list of erroneous things Cheney said at the debate (thankfully, these facts are also being carried in major news media stories across the country):

CHENEY'S MISLEAD: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11"

THE TRUTH: As the Washington Post reports today, Cheney has repeatedly insinuated and "strongly suggested" that Saddam Hussein was behind the attacks on September 11th.[2] And in its fact check column today, the Boston Globe says "Cheney has consistently asserted strong prewar links between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda, even after the 9/11 Commission definitively concluded that there had not been a collaborative relationship between the two. In a radio interview in January 2004, Cheney said: 'I think there's overwhelming evidence that there was a connection between Al Qaeda and the Iraqi government.'"[3]

On December 9, 2001, Cheney went on "Meet the Press" to perpetuate the now entirely debunked theory that one of the 9/11 hijackers met with an Iraqi official.[4] He went back on a year ago to describe Iraq as part of ""the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9/11."[5]

Most recently, Cheney has claimed that Iraq harbored the terrorist Abu Musab al Zarqawi, and said Zarqawi "is an al Qaeda associate who took refuge in Baghdad, found sanctuary and safe harbor there before we ever launched into Iraq."[6] But yesterday, a report Cheney himself requested found that there is no conclusive evidence to support that claim. An administration official said, "The evidence is that Saddam never gave Zarqawi anything."[7]

CHENEY'S MISLEAD: "900,000 small businesses will be hit" by the Kerry-Edwards plan to roll back tax cuts for people in the top income bracket.

THE TRUTH: As the Washington Post writes this morning: "This is misleading. Under Cheney's definition, a small business is any taxpayer who includes some income from a small business investment, partnership, limited liability corporation or trust. By that definition, every partner at a huge accounting firm or at the largest law firm would represent small businesses. According to IRS data, a tiny fraction of small business "S-corporations" earn enough profits to be in the top two tax brackets. Most are in the bottom two brackets."[8]

CHENEY'S MISLEAD: "We have added 1.7 million jobs to the economy."

THE TRUTH: On November 2nd, George Bush will be the first president in 70 years to lose jobs. There will be about a million fewer jobs than there were when Bush took office -- and about 7 million fewer than Bush's own post-9/11 estimate. Cheney's using fuzzy math: 1.7 million jobs have been added, but millions more have been lost.[9]

CHENEY'S MISLEAD: "The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight."

THE TRUTH: This one-liner was one of Cheney's best zingers of the night, but even it isn't true: Cheney and Edwards have met in public at least twice. They met when Edwards escorted Elizabeth Dole to be sworn in by Cheney as Senator and at the National Prayer Breakfast. At the Breakfast, he even called Edwards out by name, starting his remarks with the words, "Thank you very much. Congressman Watts, Senator Edwards, friends from across America and distinguished visitors to our country from all over the world, Lynne and I are honored to be with you all this morning."[10] You can actually watch video of the two of them shaking hands at www.democrats.org.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:23 / 07.10.04
Ladies and gentleman of Barbelith, I give you what should be Kerry's main argument for Friday's debate:

All Kerry has to do is open with: "Vice Pres. Cheney said on Thursday that the report which showed Iraq HAD NO WMD AT ALL totally JUSTIFIES THE U.S. decision to go to war!!! When we were told that the REASON for going to war was that Iraq had huge stockpiles of WMDs which could be launched within 45 minutes!!! Who's the flip flopper now?? I don't know what they're smoking, but it's not something that a Presidential administration should be smoking."

-----
Cheney: Weapons Report Justifies Iraq War

1 hour, 17 minutes ago
Yahoo News
By TOM RAUM, Associated Press Writer

MIAMI - Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) asserted on Thursday that a report by the chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq (news - web sites), who found no evidence that Iraq produced weapons of mass destruction after 1991, justifies rather than undermines President Bush (news - web sites)'s decision to go to war.

The report shows that "delay, defer, wasn't an option," Cheney told a town-hall style meeting.

While Democrats seized on the new report by Charles Duelfer to bolster their case that invading Iraq was a mistake, Cheney focused on portions of the report that were more favorable to the administration's case.

Although it says Saddam's weapons program had deteriorated since the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites) and did not pose a threat to the world in 2003, the report also says that Saddam's main goal was to get international sanctions lifted.

"As soon as the sanctions were lifted he had every intention of going back" to his weapons program, Cheney said.

Cheney said the report also concluded that the United Nations (news - web sites)' "Fuel for Food" program "was totally corrupted by Saddam Hussein (news - web sites). There were suggestions employees of the United Nations were part of the scheme as well."

"The suggestion is clearly there by Mr. Duelfer that Saddam had used the program in such a way that he had bought off foreign governments and was building support among them to take the sanctions down," Cheney said.

That being the case, there was no reason to wait to invade Iraq to give inspectors more time to do their work, Cheney said.

On Wednesday, the former head of the U.N. weapons inspection team, Hans Blix, said: "Had we had a few months more (of inspections before the war), we would have been able to tell both the CIA (news - web sites) and others that there were no weapons of mass destruction (at) all the sites that they had given to us."

-------
 
 
FinderWolf
20:19 / 07.10.04
Debate #3 tomorrow night! And I'm gonna miss it -- but should be interesting to see how Bush tries to recover (today he's saying Kerry's strategy is "one of retreat, not victory" and the especially brilliant "how can you be a strong leader if you don't like fighting?" - that's a direct quote) from the first debate.

Also how he tries to recover from the relentless day after day reports and comments that Iraq didn't have WMD and wasn't even close to having big weapons, and that we didn't have enough troops.

The 2nd Presidential debate tomorrow night at 9 PM will apparently be in a town hall type setting, with questions from the audience. I wonder just how screened those questions will be...
 
 
Hieronymus
23:52 / 07.10.04
As screened as screened can be, I suppose.

From Salon.com: Friday night, Bush and Kerry will take questions from audience members identified as "soft supporters" of one candidate or the other; the Commission on Presidential Debates wanted an audience of undecided voters, but the Bush-Cheney campaign worried that "undecided" was another way of saying "not on board yet" with the president.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:39 / 08.10.04
from Yahoo news today:

>> Only the debate's moderator and the 15 to 20 people chosen to ask questions know what topics will be raised during the town-hall session at Washington University. Kerry has momentum from polls showing he gained from his performance in the first debate while Bush goes in on the defensive. The president watched tapes from the first debate as aides sought to avoid a repeat of the scowls that contributed to negative reaction to his appearance.
 
 
ibis the being
17:50 / 08.10.04
Holy crap. Have you all heard about the Mystery Bulge?

Some observant bloggers apparently spotted a rectangular bulge on the President's back during the first debate, and rumors are flying that he was wired and being fed his answers through an earpiece. Salon takes on the rumor and the evidence is pretty disturbing -

- they reviewed the CSpan footage and the bulge is real (i.e. photos were not altered)

- at several moments the Pres stared into space without speaking. was he being fed his answers?

- as Salon points out, 'Even weirder was the president's strange outburst. In a peeved rejoinder to Kerry, he said, "As the politics change, his positions change. And that's not how a commander in chief acts. I, I, uh -- Let me finish -- The intelligence I looked at was the same intelligence my opponent looked at."'

- an official for the Commission on Presidential Debates confirms that there was a condition stating the candidates couldn't be filmed from behind at all, though Fox broke the rules and did so.

- many people believe Bush has used this wire technique in other public speaking engagements, because he is so prone to misspeaking and is reportedly dyslexic as well. The type of wire he is purported to use employs radio frequencies.

- on a D-Day event in France, CNN accidentally picked up a frequency on which someone appeared to be reciting Bush's lines a moment before Bush himself spoke them.

- "frequency specialists" at the RNC went around asking cameramen what frequency they were using. This did not occur at the DNC.

Freaky, no? See also Isbushwired.
 
  

Page: 12(3)456

 
  
Add Your Reply