BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


US presidential debates

 
  

Page: (1)23456

 
 
Bed Head
21:55 / 30.09.04
There’ll be 50 million Americans tuning in, or something; and if anyone in the UK is planning to still be up, apparently the first of these will be carried live and in full at 2 in the morning on Radio 5. Hopefully there’ll be links to transcripts popping up by tomorrow. Then post your reactions in this thread, let us celebrate...or despair.

And get in the mood for the debate by checking out this great thread which chews over what zingers/strategies Kerry could try. Should he be mean, or patient and measured? Is it a worse thing to be disrespectful to the president than angry with Bush? Is Dubya’s short fuse even more of a weakness than his slowness/arrogance? Etc etc. It’s the discussion we didn’t have here.

Just, please God, don’t let Kerry cock it all up tonight.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
01:13 / 01.10.04
Gosh, I accidentally turned the TV on and this straight sucked me in... I wish it seemed more like Bush wasn't just reading the same quotes over and over, often seemingly out of context, because that's all he knows. I only wish that because he frustrates me so much, but ugh, I can still see people falling for his shamless mugging. It's like he doesn't understand anything with shades of grey... or... I dunno, he's seems like he only has a set amount of phrases that he can repeat, but the scariest thing is I can imagine a lot of people thinking his "conviction" and seeing things in stark black and white as being the best option.

It all seems very surreal, I can't turn it off.
 
 
Mazarine
01:41 / 01.10.04
Like I said in the lateshift, I haven't heard so many panicked umms during a speech since middle school. Personally, I think Bush got schooled. Lehrer ran a pretty tight debate, Kerry looked pretty human, and Bush looked like he was tweaking. I'd call it a Kerry victory, but I wasn't undecided, so it doesn't much matter.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
01:57 / 01.10.04
(threadrot)
*sulks*

it's not fair. the USA president gets to decide our foreign policy, yet we don't get a chance to vote. i'm gonna start a campaign "No foreign policy without representation!"
(/threadrot)

Kerry came across eloquently and confidently but Bush was consistent at criticising his opponent and had a more direct message.
 
 
Bed Head
02:05 / 01.10.04
BBC Radio 5, they’ve just had all sorts of pundits lining up to rate performances. Some journalist has just this moment scored it 18-6 to Kerry, purely as a *radio* debate. Man, I’d go with that. Bush = snorts, pauses, got audibly flustered in the middle section. Kerry = steady voice and properly structured sentences. Fab.
 
 
gridley
02:19 / 01.10.04
Thinking of the debates at a tool to persuade moderate vote, I think Kerry almost certainly won. And this should have been Bush's strongest showing. Kerry should definitely be able to beat him on the domestic affairs debate.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
03:01 / 01.10.04
I'd already decided to vote for Kerry, so this wasn't a huge factor for me, but I will say I feel a lot BETTER about my vote after watching Kerry soundly defeat Bush in this debate. Where Bush was whiney, repetitive, and meandering, Kerry was direct, resolute, and, most importantly, intelligent. It's should be pretty obvious who has the bigger brain. I hope to hell this sways the undecideds, and the "guess Bush has done alright"s.

Kerry's big flaw is unfortunately the same as Gore's...he's just not as friendly as Bush. Except Bush is just friendly in a car salesman way...he just looks like he laughing and lying to our faces...argh.

I don't think Kerry made any mistakes in his tactics tonight. He was civilized, clear, and thorough. Bush was just vague and childish.
 
 
*
03:10 / 01.10.04
I was personally pleased to hear Bush repeat "Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time" fifty thousand times. Nice way to wage linguistic warfare on yourself.

Kerry did a great job. Of course, all he really had to do was not fuck up. Bush also did a great job of utterly immolating himself. George W. Bush is a loser. He didn't have the courage to face Kerry on live television, he doesn't have the courage to tell the people the truth, he doesn't have the courage to see this race through to the end. Bush is cracking, I tell you. Cracking.

Bush loses this debate, and Bush loses the election. Keep enchanting, and keep hacking the post-debate spin.
 
 
Simplist
03:58 / 01.10.04
I was really, really happy with Kerry's performance. I was concerned this was going to be basically a barely animated tree versus a smirking chimp, advantage to the chimp for being energetic; but Kerry shook his usual sonorous vegatative persona right off for the evening and came as close to talking turkey as a presidential candidate really can in a debate. The mainstream media talking heads are spinning it as a Kerry win, while conservative blogs are calling it "a draw", which bodes well for the "Kerry wins" meme lasting through tomorrow's coverage. All in all, a great night for Kerry, exactly what he needed at this point. If he hadn't won decisively I think it would've been effectively over.
 
 
Elbereth
08:37 / 01.10.04
on some of the extreme right wing boards that I I visit they are mainly attacking John Kerry's "Global Test" and distorting that. (I think he was just saying that we need to pay attention to international opinion about the morality and integrity with which we do stuff). They are also saying Bushe "stayed on message" and had a better Idea of What To Do than Kerry did. I didn't watch . What did you people think?
 
 
_Boboss
10:09 / 01.10.04
i stayed up for about the first half of it. kerry seemed a little bit shakey - maybe he stopped doing it later, but starting each sentence with 'i believe' was rreally getting on my tits. he also didn't ever just call bullshit on the 'resistance in iraq = zarkawi and his ilk' line and he should have.

both candidates seemed to have rehearsed about three or four statistics, and dragged them out whenever they were stuck for something good to say (quite a lot of the time).

bush just seemed more like a real president to me: frighteningly corrupt, desperately blinkered, dangerously amoral, and just the kind of person to lead an empire into collapse. but i think the prevailing spin, that kerry came out best, will have caused bush's standing a not insignificant amount of harm.
 
 
charrellz
11:01 / 01.10.04
I only caught little bits and pieces cause I was working at the time, but I swear at one point Kerry brought up Bush ignoring the benefits of stem cell research, and Bush responded by saying how 'great' the war in Iraq is going. Did anyone catch that or did I mishear something?
 
 
Tamayyurt
11:10 / 01.10.04
Yeah, I was there and I can tell you this debate didn't convince anybody. The Bushies just twisted everything around and they're saying that the reason Bush seemed repetitive was because he was asked the same question over and over again. The "He stayed on message" thing came up a lot.

Kerry won but it wasn't decisive. The good thing is that this is where Bush should have shined. War's his thing. It's all he knows. Kerry should more clearly school Bush in the next two debates.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:14 / 01.10.04
barely animated tree

Nice. I always had him down as looking like the evil doctor from "Re-Animator", personally.

Ah, the importance of TV debates. Democracy's fucked, isn't it?

(btw, in the middle of this pessimistic post, I'd just like to add a big Bush Loses. Invoke often, as they say.)

It HAS to be decisive... that's what scares me. If the same shenanigans occur as last time, a close victory ain't gonna cut it, and it's goodnight Vienna (and goodnight Iraq, Iran, Syria, fuck it, probably Wales... it's just goodnight, basically).

That said... Kerry making a good showing is a definite kick in the balls to Georgieboy, and a much-needed one. The real question is, can he carry on with the offensive?
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
12:26 / 01.10.04
Yup, Kerry really needs to start letting rip from now on. In one way I think he's been wise in not getting too aggressive early on, because I think that would have discouraged the swing voters - but now he has to keep the momentum going and collar Dubya on how he blatantly lied about war in Iraq being "a last resort", as Kerry can clearly wipe the floor with Dubya when debating US foreign policy. Kerry needs to start throwing some extra-dirty mud back in Dubya's face before the likes of Karl Rove can attack him again.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:02 / 01.10.04
The problem is that Kerry is a gentleman, or fancies himself as such. His attacks on GWB have been oddly muted, and he has backed away from clear opportunities for the kill--witness him backing off from the moderator's characteriation of Bush as "lying," and his behavior during Bush's weird brain-freeze moment late in the debate, when, in the middle of an answer about North Korea, Bush locked up for a second and then started talking about Iraq (again); when Kerry got his rebuttal, he continued to talk about Iraq, as if that had been the topic of the question from the get-go. Kerry has shown a real unqillingnbess to be that bad cop.

That said, I thought he did a hell of a job last night. His statements were articulate and punchy, he addressed himself to the issues, relied less on a small set of talking points, and looked confident, passionate, and, yeah, presidential. D said he looked like Lincoln up there. Dunno if I'd go that far, but he did have presence; Bush looked like a seventeen-year-old kid wearing his dad's suit, sitting in the principle's office appealing his suspension.

(And what was up with the way Bush was hunched over the podium? I kept thinking there must be a line of charley down there...)

The problem will be, of course, that Kerry's positions, however clearly he articulated them, are nuanced positions--and can therefore be distorted by the Bush spin machine.

Only a quarter of the electorate watched the debate: the rest will get the soundbite version today. And therein lies the rub. Look back at 2000; in polls, those who actually watched the debates themselves thought that Al Gore won all three, while those who only read/saw coverage of the debates came away favoring Bush. Kerry may face a similar bind.

There were no howlers, no real money lines, but it was more substantive than I was expecting, and our guy distinguished himself.

If nothing else, Kerry's performance should fire up the Democratic base, many of whom have been supporting him only reluctantly. I, for one, awoke full of piss and vinegar. (Two minutes later I was only full of vinegar, but still.) There's a smell of blood on the wind. I actually found myself getting horny as I watched. What had promised to be dull (if worthy) now has the potential to be a real scrap.

It's a good day to be a Democrat.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
14:25 / 01.10.04
As anyone who knows me will attest (and you don't), I'm not a sportsman. Last night I watched the debates with the vigor of a Red Sox fan rooting for the home team. I laughed at Bush's wild blank stares, cheered at his inept 'it's HARD WORK!' rants and wanted to kiss Kerry full on the mouth whenever he spoke. At the open, Kerry was very shakey and I was troubled. But he did just nearky tear off Dubya's arm with his firm handshake (anyone else catch that?).

Near the end I felt Kerry could have hit Bush harder, but yeah he is a gentleman. His closing speech was brilliant, though, and seemed... damn me... sincere.

The media is twisting the fuck out of this, saying that Kerry was a 'little long winded' despite the fact that he always answered calmly within the time limit and no one has mentioned Bush's wild response to John which broke up the agreed upon rules, resulting a laughing assured Kerry saying, 'No go ahead, we can just change the rules...'

Kerry is being robbed of a major victory. His website contains a page devoted to media feedback. I recommend everyone at least look at it. The big failure of the twity machine is that there is not one sound bite that makes Bush look anywhere near presentable.

So fight all you want, old order, you're done... (I hope).
 
 
ibis the being
14:37 / 01.10.04
For what it's worth, here are the CNN poll results. They have Kerry winning (according to polls) 53% to 37%. I'd say that's pretty decisive.

I'm a little surprised at how much cynicism's in this thread! I, like Mr. Fear above, felt totally energized by watching this first debate. I thought Kerry killed it. He was composed, at ease, he spoke clearly, he looked presidential. Bush's smirks and eye-rolling not only looked unpresidential, they looked unprofessional, and he was at a a loss for words way too much of the time - didn't he prepare?

It seemed to me that Bush started out on the defensive and stayed that way, and got emotional to boot, while Kerry was completely in control and never rattled. I thought the latter plainly came off as the "strong leader" everyone's after.
 
 
diz
14:38 / 01.10.04
There were no howlers, no real money lines

the one i worry about is "pass the global test." it looks like the Republicans are planning on hammering him on that one, and xenophobia sells in this country.
 
 
Sekhmet
14:41 / 01.10.04
I heard this morning that while the majority of the major polls are showing a clear win for Kerry in the debate, they also still show Bush ahead in the race. Rrrgh. Hopefully this will change over the next few days as people process the post-debate spin.

Dig the body language. Kerry: upright, face forward, with sincere expresions and controlled gestures. Bush: hunched over, scowling, shuffling through his papers. A commentator said this morning that if someone who didn't know better had been watching with the sound off, they would have thought Kerry was the incumbent. He looked more like a President (and much less like a monkey preparing to throw poop).

Bush lost the debate. The election is still open to question.
 
 
A fall of geckos
14:57 / 01.10.04
This debate was on the war - which is supposed to be where Bush leads over Kerry. Although Kerry didn't destroy Bush, he did make him loose his cool. In some ways this is more important. If Kerry had committed totally to attacking Bush, he would have lost sympathy. From what I can remember, this is the first debate Bush has been in since the last election - he doesn't appear to be used to people challenging him. Bush looked skittish and angry - Kerry looked in control. I think this is a great start. The democrats need to make use of this - see Faces of Fustration at www.democrats.org.

And the whole debate was worth it for this:

"Now I believe there‘s a better way to do this. You know, the president‘s father did not go into Iraq, into Baghdad, beyond Basra. And the reason he didn‘t is, he said—he wrote in his book—because there was no viable exit strategy. And he said our troops would be occupiers in a bitterly hostile land.

That‘s exactly where we find ourselves today."

You should have listened to your daddy. Beautiful.
 
 
_Boboss
15:01 / 01.10.04
Yeh i saw the handshake at the beginning - it looked like kerry held on for just a split second too long - while his body was already turning away, he let go just soon enough to stop chimp jr losing his balance. after this little slip bush headed straight for the comfort of the lectern, while kerry stepped forward waving to the crowd. pretty smooth. reckon the handshake thing must be a trick he picked up in Nam. how Nam are the dems playing the campaign by the way? 'we gotta get out of this place' as the campaign theme? 'let's take this fucken (capitol) hill' as the campaign slogan?
 
 
ibis the being
15:20 / 01.10.04
"The global test" was pretty bad, they're all over it today. But Bush had many more gaffes, I think. For example, calling the terrorists "a group of folks." He stumbled over "wrong war right - wrong - place..." and also "mexed missages." And all those long gape-mouthed pauses aren't playing well.

I personally thought it was hilarious when, in reponse to Kerry's brutal exposure of just who the "alliance" is (British and Australian and then a scattering of troops from smaller countries), Bush pipes us, "He forgot Poland!" and then did that bobblehead smirk he does when he thinks he's made a great point. It was so silly, especially without the thunderous cheers that usually serve to obscure his idiocy on the campaign trail.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
15:57 / 01.10.04
Bush broke so many rules. He was ill at ease, a fucking chimp of a man.

Also, did anyone catch this little gem when he was talking about a visit to a war widow?

"It was hard to try to love her as best as I can""
 
 
Bed Head
16:07 / 01.10.04
Full transcript here, if anyone wants one. I don't think 'mexed missages' made it, though. But apart from that, it's all joy today.
 
 
charrellz
16:18 / 01.10.04
Thanks for the link. I found the part I was asking about:

KERRY: ... and a great first lady.

But we do have differences. I'm not going to talk about a difference of character. I don't think that's my job or my business.

But let me talk about something that the president just sort of finished up with. Maybe someone would call it a character trait, maybe somebody wouldn't.

But this issue of certainty. It's one thing to be certain, but you can be certain and be wrong.

It's another to be certain and be right, or to be certain and be moving in the right direction, or be certain about a principle and then learn new facts and take those new facts and put them to use in order to change and get your policy right.

What I worry about with the president is that he's not acknowledging what's on the ground, he's not acknowledging the realities of North Korea, he's not acknowledging the truth of the science of stem-cell research or of global warming and other issues.

And certainty sometimes can get you in trouble.

LEHRER: Thirty seconds.

BUSH: Well, I think -- listen, I fully agree that one should shift tactics, and we will, in Iraq. Our commanders have got all the flexibility to do what is necessary to succeed.

But what I won't do is change my core values because of politics or because of pressure.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
16:28 / 01.10.04
Mexed Messages (MP3 format).
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:49 / 01.10.04
Was highly entertaining.

loved the We were attacked by the enemy bit when discussing Iraq.

Was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad Kerry picked up on that one. Seemed like GW used up all of his sound bytes with-in the first 20 minutes. It was then that it seemed Kerry needed to warm up while those 1st few questions seemed perfectly scripted for GW. Well into the debate it was Keary that was just on it... sounded like someone on a job interview; professional, competent, equiped. Meanwhile BUSH was repeating himself, complementing JK several times over and mixing up his (if you can call them) answers while repeating "wrong War wrong place" and "mu mu mixed messages."

SO looking forward to the Cheny vs. Edwards bought.
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:19 / 01.10.04
I just have to say how weird it is to me that someone else thinks Kerry looks like Doctor Hill from Re-Animator. I mean, apropos of nothing, but I thought it was just me.

End threadrot, save to say...uh...Bush loses. DAMN does Bush lose. Loser.
 
 
grant
17:21 / 01.10.04
Yeah, when is Cheney/Edwards again?

Jack sed:
while those who only read/saw coverage of the debates came away favoring Bush.

Check out Talking Points Memo's grab of the Fox News site. They actually put up a page of unsourced, unverifiable (for non-journalists, that means "made up") quotes from John Kerry, talking about how great his manicure was after the debate.

It's surreal.

There were no howlers,

Actually, the one line I heard a couple times on NPR this morning came close for me: "I know Osama bin Laden's responsible. I know that."

It's all in the petulant, huffy tone of voice.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:26 / 01.10.04
Cheney/Edwards is this coming Tuesday, the 5th, and it's gonna be a rrrrrrrrumble. The traditional role for veep candidates is as attack dogs for the boss, and between Cheney's snarling contempt and Edwards's populist fire, sparks are gonna fly.

FYI: these guys do a great job fact-checking the various claims and statements made by the candidates.
 
 
Francine I
17:44 / 01.10.04
Cheney v. Edwards is scheduled for the 5th.
 
 
Simplist
17:46 / 01.10.04
They are also saying Bush "stayed on message"...

If by that you mean "repeated the same thing over and over again," I guess it's accurate enough. My favorite bit:

In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard.

It's-and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work.

We're making progress. It is hard work.


A friend of mine who watched the debate in a liberal-filled bar in Boulder said by the end people were yelling "It's hard! It's really hard!" every time Bush finished speaking.
 
 
Francine I
17:52 / 01.10.04
Sorry for the redundant response there. I suppose I should click refresh more often. Cheney v. Edwards ought to be fascinating.
 
 
MJ-12
18:06 / 01.10.04
My mother opined that, "Landscaping is hard work. Breaking rocks in the hot sun is hard work. Trying to avoid roadside bombs is something else altogether."
 
  

Page: (1)23456

 
  
Add Your Reply