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US presidential debates

 
  

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ibis the being
18:10 / 01.10.04
Along the lines of Simplist's excerpt, I thought this was pretty absurd -

BUSH: Of course we're doing everything we can to protect America. I wake up every day thinking about how best to protect America. That's my job.

I work with Director Mueller of the FBI; comes in my office when I'm in Washington every morning, talking about how to protect us. There's a lot of really good people working hard to do so.


There was something about this response that indicated he's impressed with himself, and thinks we'll all be impressed, that he meets with Director Mueller of the FBI every day. Every day! He meets with the FBI director every day while our country's at war with terrorists! Wow, and I thought a President just ate cookies and watched cartoons.
 
 
lekvar
19:15 / 01.10.04
I have to admit that I missed the first half hour, and hear the debates on the radio, so my impressions may differ. But it seemed to me that Kerry won the debate primarily by the benefit of not being Bush, and not by his mad debate skillz. The fact that Kerry managed to keep his foot out of his mouth also counted in his favor. But come on- one of Dubya's stunned silences was so long I thought my radio had lost the signal.

Of course, to be honest I would only have been satisfied if Kerry had ripped Dubya's trachea out with his teeth. Maybe in the next debate.
 
 
lekvar
19:17 / 01.10.04
It was nice to hear non-proliferation make it back into the political landscape outside of being an excuse to invade Middle Eastern countries.
 
 
diz
19:32 / 01.10.04
And all those long gape-mouthed pauses aren't playing well.

i know they're trying to keep their distance from Michael Moore right now, but a talented ad guy could put those deer-in-the-headlights moments together with the My Pet Goat thing and make an ad that basically exposes Bush as someone who chokes under pressure when his handlers aren't around.

Also, did anyone catch this little gem when he was talking about a visit to a war widow?

"It was hard to try to love her as best as I can""


that was really odd and rather creepy, yes.
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:18 / 01.10.04
he was playing up the Good Christen thing with that. Remeber the "we prayed together" bit.

(almost typed Preyed which would've probably been closer to home)
 
 
ibis the being
22:08 / 01.10.04
On a pettier note, was anyone else as annoyed as I was by Bush's failure to speak proper English and en-un-ci-ate? Words like "wadnt" for wasn't, "tuh" instead of to, dropping the g's off all gerunds? It's one thing to be a "good ol' boy" (which, even then, I don't see as a spectacular plus in a President) but save that for the campaign trail at least.
 
 
Tamayyurt
22:23 / 01.10.04
I honestly don't think he can speak anyother way.
 
 
Simplist
00:11 / 02.10.04
Words like "wadnt" for wasn't, "tuh" instead of "to", dropping the g's off all gerunds?

Hey, don't forget "nukuler"...
 
 
FinderWolf
00:56 / 02.10.04
>> Also, did anyone catch this little gem when he was talking about a visit to a war widow?

"It was hard to try to love her as best as I can""

Bush actually said something like "It was hard for me, loving her and supporting her... when she had lost her husband". It was hilarious...and creepy.

Kerry's "I watch your daughters" was also funny in that unintentional lecherous, creepy way.

"You FORGOT POLAND!!" was brilliant, but the best Bush gaffe was the famous "The enemy attacked us on Sept. 11th!" and then "I -- I -- I KNOW it was Osama Bin Laden that attacked us!" Kerry's simple but forceful correction for the vague "enemy" was just what was needed.

Didja like how Bush tried to sneak in some Bible belt crap in his closing statement? It was something like "We will climb that great mountain and bask in the beautiful valley", some shit like that. Sheesh.

I was disappointed however, that Kerry didn't use the word "terrorism" or "Al Qaeda" ** ONCE! ** in answering the question 'what do you feel is the greatest threat to America's security right now? I mean, all that stuff about nuclear suitcase weapons stolen from Russia is all well and good, but how can you not at least mention terrorism or Al Qaeda in a Presidential debate in 2004!?? Bush got it right when he said "I agree with my opponent, nuclear weapons IN THE HANDS OF A TERRORIST NETWORK." I felt this was a no-brainer on Kerry's part and a missed opportunity for Kerry.

Kerry saying "I know what it's like to be concerned about your buddies' lives...to be in combat and not knowing what's around the corner" was heartfelt and terrific. He made sure we knew his combat experience but didn't wave a self-aggrandizing flag about his Vietnam service.

Kerry had a lot of missed opportunties, even though he did well overall - he could have said "Gee, Pres. Bush is all for a coalition of nations in having talks with North Korea but didn't really want to wait around or persuade a genuine, significant coalition to invade a country. In one case, he says other nations are more valuable than just going it on your own, in the other, he says America doesn't need a permission slip from other nations. Now who's the flip-flopper, Mr. President?"
 
 
FinderWolf
01:06 / 02.10.04
Also, Kerry could have pointed out that our MAJOR ally in the war, Tony Blair, just a few days ago pretty much apologized for wrong intelligence and acknowledged that he made a "mistake."

When Bush said "We saw the same intelligence," Kerry could have pointed out numerous accounts that the CIA and FBI felt they were being strong-armed by the Bush administration to produce intelligence that really wasn't there. He could have pointed out the assertion from a prominent book on the Bush administration that Bush pretty much wanted to invade Iraq from DAY ONE of his term as President.

He could have mentioned Donald Rumsfeld's now-infamous memo after Sept. 11 saying basically (here I paraphrase) 'how can we use this to go after Iraq' - (and I quote directly) "sweep it all up. Things related and not."

He could have mentioned the Abu Ghirab (sorry if I'm misspelling it) prison abuse scandal, and how we know know that top US brass knew about it a year in advance.

He could have pointed out that despite the President's rosy picture of Iraq, that Bush's own Secretary of State, Colin Powell, said just a few days ago that conditions in Iraq are (and I quote directly) "worsening."

He could have pointed out that it's not just a 'few bad apples' in a few cities that can be 'smoked out,' that the media now reports that EVERY MAJOR POPULATION CENTER IN IRAQ now has a hotbed of insurgency. Not just one or two or three cities.

He could have hammered a lot more about the reality of life in Afghanistan today, about the fact that the Taliban is regaining power as well as threatening citizens and their families that if they vote in any elections, they will be killed, warlords don't want to unite under Pres. Karzai, that we have left essentially a skeleton crew of US troops to restore order in the most difficult terrain and most historically chaotic country in that area of the world. He could have hammered home the fact that we have left many spent radioactive bomb casings and active land mines to blow up children and adults in Afghanistan.
 
 
FinderWolf
01:12 / 02.10.04
Also, Kerry could have hammered home more about the distinction between opposing the reasons for a war and still supporting the soldiers - an issue he personally knows a lot about from his Vietnam activism. And as far as Bush saying "Hey, I do what I feel is right and who cares if it's unpopular, my opponent is a flip-flopper," Kerry could have said "I stood before Congress when I was a very young man and took what was a pretty unpopular stance in denouncing the Vietnam war and the atrocities I saw committed there when the more conservative parts of our nation told me that to do so was un-American, dishonoring the soliders, and un-patriotic...Kind of like you're doing with me, Mr. President. I still have Vietnam vets who are upset with me now and think I was condemning ALL the soliders in Vietnam, and all I did was tell the truth - namely, that some soldiers, not all, were abusing their positions and committing serious violations. So I think I know something about going with my gut and taking moral stands despite politicial pressure."
 
 
Simplist
01:15 / 02.10.04
"You FORGOT POLAND!!" was brilliant...

Bush (approximately): "He says we didn't have allies? What does he say to Tony Blair? What does he say to Aleksander Kwasniewski of Poland?"

President Aleksander Kwasniewski of Poland: "They deceived us about the weapons of mass destruction, that's true. We were taken for a ride."

(Stolen from Reason Mag's Hit & Run blog.)
 
 
FinderWolf
01:32 / 02.10.04
Thank God Kerry made the point about the soldiers having to buy their own body armor. I've been hearing about that for months. If Bush is going to be a freaking hawk and rush into war, then he'd better at least make sure our soliders and vehicles have their fucking armor, for God's sake. I noticed Bush didn't have any real retort to the body armor and unarmored Humvees complaint - he just stammered something about "We're doing it, we're supporting them, we're spending lots of money" and then went back to his pre-scripted rant.

Kerry also could have pointed out that even Britain, our historically strongest ally, since Pres. Bush wants to list them as a biggie ally, is now apologizing for being mislead on WMDs in Iraq. And Tony Blair even said "Even politicans make mistakes," thereby admitting a mistake. The moderator asked Bush to explain what he meant when he said he made a "miscalculation" and all Bush had to say was "That's not what I said" (sort of denying a quote from the New York Times) and then said "We won so fast, we didn't know what to do! We won just so darn fast, cause our general was so darn smart, it took us by surprise!" I'm glad Kerry mentioned that the US (although he didn't mention Rumsfeld by name) ignored commanders' recommendations for more troops.

Cheney/Edwards should be hilarious. Cheney will doubtless play the terrorism/fear card and also attack Edwards' one term in the Senate and 'ambulance-chasing' (as some have accused Edwards of being) lawyer record. But that will likely be nothing compared to Edwards' intelligence, charm, good looks, and persuasive rhetoric saavy. I better hear a lot about Halliburton corrpution on that one.

And when the other Prez debates come up, I better hear many specific examples from Kerry about how the Patriot Act often treats citizens like Japanese interment camp victims. There's a lot of ammo there if he just uses it.
 
 
FinderWolf
02:21 / 02.10.04
from a fact-checker site on USA Today.com, I learned this:

>> Kerry asserted that he has not wavered. He said he voted in 2002 to give Bush authority to use force in Iraq as a way of strengthening Bush's hand in getting arms inspectors back into the country.

WHY DIDN'T KERRY MAKE THIS POINT CLEAR IN THE DEBATE??? AAAUGGHHHH!!!! This would have clarified Kerry's infamous vote as a strategic vote, not a carte blanche endorsement of war.

And as for Kerry voting against an $87 billion bill for Iraq, John McCain (a Republican with a military service record, it should be noted) himself even said months ago that sometimes HE voted against defense spending bills to make a statment, or to protest an administration or if he didn't like pork barrell shit that was hidden inside the bill. Kerry could have pointed out that sometimes people vote against bills to make a statement, and this is why he voted against the infamous $87 billion. But I guess his "I made a mistake in voting against it, but Pres. Bush made a mistake in invading a country [without just cause & intelligence] - which is worse?" was pretty effective too.

But what the hell did Kerry mean when he said "I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it?"
That was really embarrassing and gave those who cry 'flip-flopper' something to hone in on.

The fact-checking article also commented on Bush's statment that 75% of the big Al Qaeda leaders have been captured or killed: the article said that US and international intelligence agencies agree that those leaders that have bit the dust or imprisoned have pretty much all been replaced with new Al Qaeda leadership.
 
 
Simplist
04:31 / 02.10.04
Kerry had a lot of missed opportunties, even though he did well overall - he could have said [etc.]

Agreed, but I was still happy with a lot of what he did say. His advisers have obviously been surfing the liberal blogosphere--Kerry used many of the lines and stories bloggers have bemoaned his not using in the past. He used the Tora Bora narrative (twice), clearly debunked Bush's implied tie between 9/11 and Iraq, and generally delineated his position on the war very clearly. There were a bits that were good enough that I was almost moved to cheer there in my friend's living room, though admittedly there were more entertaining Bush flubs than Kerry triumphs. Still, I was pretty happy with Kerry overall, particularly given my pre-debate trepidation over what I assumed what would be an entirely wooden performance by Kerry.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
10:07 / 02.10.04
Anyone know where I can download this as opposed to stream it? My LAN doesn't like bittorents.
 
 
Jack Fear
10:40 / 02.10.04
Kerry asserted that he has not wavered. He said he voted in 2002 to give Bush authority to use force in Iraq as a way of strengthening Bush's hand in getting arms inspectors back into the country.

WHY DIDN'T KERRY MAKE THIS POINT CLEAR IN THE DEBATE??? AAAUGGHHHH!!!! This would have clarified Kerry's infamous vote as a strategic vote, not a carte blanche endorsement of war.


I thought Kerry made this very clear, actually; he ran down the whole narrative—that Congress was essentially sold a bill of goods, that the resolution was to give authorization for use of force if X, Y, and Z, and that the Bushies then shortchanged the X, Y, and Z—at least twice in its entirety, and alluded to it several times more.

The problem is, as I noted earlier, it's a complicated story, difficult to sell in five seconds—particularly as compared to the simplicity of Bush's narrative.

What's interesting to me is that Team Bush's strategy seems to be to continue pretty much as if the debate had never happened; instead of actually responding to Kerry's forceful and eloquent laying-out of his principles, right-wing radio and punditry is still blathering about flip-flops and consulting the French before doing anything.

In other words, they're campaigning against the cartoon version of John Kerry that Bush trashes in his stump speech—instead of against the real man, whom voters have had a chance to see for themselves. It's another example of how insulated from reality these guys are. I'm hoping it's a strategy that will turn around and bite them on the ass.
 
 
Nobody's girl
13:21 / 02.10.04
The bit where Bush talked about not joining the ICC as a good thing made me furious. He didn't join the ICC because he's covering his ass! Got nothing to do with protecting americans from those scary foreigners and everything to do with evading being hauled up for war crimes. Coward.

On a tangent- I've heard people refer to the moderator as Lehrer. That wouldn't be Tom Lehrer would it?
 
 
Jack Fear
13:35 / 02.10.04
No. Jim Lehrer, co-host of PBS's NewsHour.

As noted elsewhere, it was in fact Bill Clinton who initially refused to sign on to join the ICC.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:51 / 02.10.04
grant Check out Talking Points Memo's grab of the Fox News site. They actually put up a page of unsourced, unverifiable (for non-journalists, that means "made up") quotes from John Kerry, talking about how great his manicure was after the debate.

Fuck me. If that, and the next post, were accurate as to what Fox were saying, then basically, they were trying to diss Kerry by saying he was gay. 'metrosexual', 'manicures'... Surely Fox are trying to suggest to their watchers/readers that Kerry is a goddam faggot?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:01 / 02.10.04
Just to clear something up, I don't think Kerry said voting against the $87 billion was a mistake, but rather that saying "I voted for it before I voted against it" was a mistake, becuse it allowed the GOP to caricature him as an equivocator. His words were:

Well, you know, when I talked about the $87 billion, I made a mistake in how I talk about the war. But the president made a mistake in invading Iraq. Which is worse?
 
 
diz
04:43 / 04.10.04
Fuck me. If that, and the next post, were accurate as to what Fox were saying, then basically, they were trying to diss Kerry by saying he was gay. 'metrosexual', 'manicures'... Surely Fox are trying to suggest to their watchers/readers that Kerry is a goddam faggot?

basically, yeah, or at the very least a soft Europeanized degenerate.
 
 
Simplist
06:22 / 04.10.04
Check out the latest comical slur, courtesy Drudge: Mom! Kerry cheated!
 
 
Sekhmet
13:42 / 04.10.04
Per this morning's news, the weekend polls showed Kerry gaining ground; the candidates are now neck-and neck, and in some cases Kerry is a couple of points ahead.

(*does a little dance*)
 
 
FinderWolf
13:58 / 04.10.04
I read in the NYT the explanation for Kerry's 'I voted for it before I voted against it' gaffe on the $87 billion. Apparently there was an earlier version of the $87 Iraq/Afghanistan bill which invovled denying a tax cut to Americans with $200,000/year income or more and would have taken most of its funding from taxes from those wealthy Americans. Kerry was all for that, and voted for it. Bush didn't like that bill, for obvious reasons (Bush wanted his tax cuts for the wealthy, or "across the board" as he puts it).

So then there was a later version of the bill that Kerry voted against.

If only he had said that at the debate, people wouldn't be giving him shit for the "I voted for it before I voted against it" thing. Hell, he should be explaining it daily in his campaign trail speeches. I had to get to paragraph 11 of a NYT Times story on page A11 of the Sunday Times to learn what the heck he was talking about.

BUT, the polls show that for the most part, as a result of Kerry's strong performance in the debates, Bush and Kerry are now pretty much in a dead heat. And tomorrow nite is Cheney vs. Edwards...a more stark, dramatic contest you'll never find....

The break-in to the Republicans' office doesn't seem to be getting much media attention, I notice...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:47 / 04.10.04
Meanwhile, Fox make half-hearted apology for the gay thing.
 
 
diz
17:40 / 04.10.04
It had been posted on the site, the network said in a statement, because of "fatigue and bad judgment, rather than malice."

"umm, we were, like, tired, and shit, and so we accidentally posted a story that said that one of the Presidential candidates in an incredibly tight race is a fucking homo who likes getting his nails done with all the other queens down at the beauty parlor. we didn't really mean it (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). while we all spend all our free time backstage talking about what a fudgepacking faggot this guy is, it doesn't affect our fair and balanced coverage of this nancy-boy's campaign for president. no malice here. we're totally objective. vote Bush or we all die.

next: an exploration of the various ways the legalization of gay marriage in Senator John Kerry's Massachusetts is going to destroy the American family structure and turn your son into a little queer who uses product in his hair."
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
18:55 / 04.10.04
But everyone uses product...
 
 
FinderWolf
18:20 / 05.10.04
I'm pissed that I'm going to miss Friday night's debate. I planned a month ago to visit my brother & his family in Pittsburgh, and my flight arrives at about 9:30 pm. By the time they drive me back from the airport, it'll be over. (and they're a little yuppie-ish, not so political, and had my flight been earlier, they might be like "you came all this way to visit us and you want to watch the debates when you arrive?!?")

Ah well. I can catch it on the news, transcripts, etc., but honestly, there's nothing like watching it happen live. Plus, the media only gives you the broad strokes and a few sound bites, a few of the best zingers & statements. At least I'll be able to watch tonight and the 3rd & final debate all the way through...
 
 
Bed Head
18:26 / 05.10.04
Ahhh. I’m looking forward to the Edwards/Cheney debate tonight, so I just listened to this one all over again. I love the way Kerry unfurled the subject of unsecured nuclear materials, bringing it in at both ends of the debate, like it’s his specialist subject, his theme, the serious undercurrent that Bush hasn’t been facing up to (...well, I had no idea that threats posed by nuclear proliferation and ‘loose’ nuclear materials would ever be such an issue, anyway. It’s the kind of thing we’d *never* hear being debated during election campaigns in this country). He brought the issue up, defined the dangers presented by nuclear materials, and sold the necessity of action, in a couple of 90-second bursts. The president’s best stumbling response? To helpfully point out the tax shortfall between what K says needs to be done on 'homeland security' with how much a Bush presidency would have to pay for it. How did this guy ever get to be president, anyway?

Kerry (sounding like a grown-up): And the test is not whether you're spending more money. The test is, are you doing everything possible to make America safe?

We didn't need that tax cut. America needed to be safe.


Bush (sounding like an idiot child): Of course we're doing everything we can to protect America.*snort* I wake up every day thinking about how best to protect America. That's my job.

I work with Director Mueller of the FBI; comes in my office when I'm in Washington every morning, talking about how to protect us. There's a lot of really good people working hard to do so.


It's not really a very soundbite-ready answer. What with all the talk of knockout blows and points victories, there was only one guy landing his jab with any force that I could see. In fact, if I didn’t know better I‘d say Georgie was deliberately taking a dive at this point. Or, is that a conspiracy too far? I mean, okay, maybe he’s not got the sharpest of intellects, but one thing I’m sure he’s always been good at is repeating the phrases prepared for him by a team of well-funded evil geniuses. As has already been pointed out in this thread, Bush repeating Kerry’s ‘wrong war, wrong time, wrong place’ line at every opportunity is a bizarre strategy. Repeating over and over again what a very hard job it is being president is surely *not* the way to present yourself as fit for reelection. Was he really just adlibbing, all those times? It’s a bit odd.

Almost as odd as yesterday's big gaffe by Rumsfeld. Maybe we can play 'conspiracy or cock-up' when the much-feared October surprise does or doesn't turn up. Until then, much of the right-wing attack since the debate seems to have focussed right in on Kerry’s line about a ‘global test’. Well, although it’s a bit of a sucky phrase if twisted or taken out of context, I have to admit to being kinda bowled over by the paragraph it led Kerry up to:

...we can remember when President Kennedy in the Cuban missile crisis sent his secretary of state to Paris to meet with DeGaulle. And in the middle of the discussion, to tell them about the missiles in Cuba, he said, "Here, let me show you the photos." And DeGaulle waved them off and said, "No, no, no, no. The word of the president of the United States is good enough for me."

How many leaders in the world today would respond to us, as a result of what we've done, in that way? So what is at test here is the credibility of the United States of America and how we lead the world.


...is that not beautiful? Yes, okay, it’s a silly, fantasyland version of international politics, but it's also a lovely narrative he's trying to write you into. It’s a resonant image that appeals all over: One of the reasons Bush and co are so utterly loathed around the world - apart from all the death, that is - is the way this *idea* of America has been ripped away from us all, and with it any hope of idealising your country. Which is a genuine and deeply felt loss, I promise you. It’s been really, really horrible seeing you over the last few years as a bunch of thugs, nutters and Halliburton employees have seized control, it’s been like finding out Santa Claus is a child molester. Or something.

But, the key line for me, the bit that almost had me whooping and punching the air, was still

You talk about mixed messages. We're telling other people, "You can't have nuclear weapons," but we're pursuing a new nuclear weapon that we might even contemplate using.

Not this president. I'm going to shut that program down, and we're going to make it clear to the world we're serious about containing nuclear proliferation.


Yeah. No more nuclear weapons, now that’s a defence policy. Leader of the free world. Lead me.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:58 / 05.10.04
>> In fact, if I didn’t know better I‘d say Georgie was deliberately taking a dive at this point. Or, is that a conspiracy too far?

Um...yes. Bush, Cheney & Karl Rove want this bad. as much as I'd love to believe a conspiracy theory that Bush & Co. want to lose this election, it's just not realistic.

But I see your basic point - that Bush fucked up bad and showed just what a moron he is at the 1st debate. Anyone who thought "Well, gosh, you have to be pretty smart to get elected President, right?" knows differently now, if they have an ounce of sense in them.
 
 
Bed Head
19:14 / 05.10.04
Hey, rope-a-dope, baby. When Bush is the one who's constantly repeating Kerry’s best line throughout the debate, you kind of think maybe someone’s got an answer, all ready and waiting. It's not about winning the debate. It's about using the debate to win the election.

Once is a gaffe. But, several times is a thing. That’s all.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
00:07 / 06.10.04
"You are still not being straight with the American people" - fuck Cheney up!

I can't wait until the future when they just make them fight. WITH CHAINS!
 
 
FinderWolf
03:13 / 06.10.04
I'd say that was a pretty strong showing by Edwards. In fact, I'd say Edwards pretty much gave Cheney a good thrashing. All the online polls I've seen said Edwards came out on top - some say around 67% Edwards won, 33% Cheney won, some say more like 55% Edwards won, 35% Cheney won, 10% it's a tie.

Cheney is clearly more intelligent and a better debater than Bush, and Cheney landed one or two good solid punches on Edwards. But Edwards landed a LOT of HARD blows, very vaild and plainly and compellingly spoken, on Cheney.

Edwards is a terrific, charming speaker well-versed in rhetoric and persuasive oration, thanks to his years as a trial lawyer. Several times, he reminded me of Clinton in his speaking skills. Edwards' closing statement would have sounded cheesy coming from most other politicians, but coming from him, it really worked.

Cheney's blatant and pointed ommission of thanking Sen. Edwards for being there (when Edwards thanked Cheney for being there) came off as petty, and several post-debate TV newscasters commented on it. I think this will really hurt Cheney.

Talking about body language - Cheney was hunched over and wringing his hand like Lady MacBeth most of the time. Edwards body language was much more inviting and open, and of course, Cheney can still barely muster up a sincere smile. In reaction shots, and even while he was speaking, Cheney's face was often showing a scowl in his upper lip or a cold, exasperated look.
 
 
FinderWolf
03:16 / 06.10.04
I was a little disappointed at Edwards' 'we can't really say we're for gay marriage since we have to court the Midwest and South, we can't even say we really like gays in general' stance, but I know that if Kerry & Edwards were to say things more embracing gay marriage and gay culture, they wouldn't get those crucial midwest and southern votes, or the votes of those Republicans/moderates who are sick of Bush.
 
  

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