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Seaguy #3

 
  

Page: 1234(5)6

 
 
Gus
07:27 / 10.08.04
You know, a lot of the symbolism in this issue is related to the tarot card The Moon, especially Crowley's interpretation of it.

The card from Crowley's Thoth deck shows the sea at the bottom, under which lies the egyptian scarab god Kephra (or Kephri) carrying the sun orb in his mandibles. The Moon is above, crying red tears. Before it stand two dark towers and two statues of Anubis, with Jackals (or a dog and a jackal) lying at their feet. It is associated with the sign of Pisces and is called the Gateway of Resurrection.

I'll quote the Book of thoth, because the last line is very telling:
"This is the threshold of life, this is the threshold of death. All is doubtful, all is mysterious, all is intoxicating.(...)This is a drunkenness of sense , after the mind has been abolished by the venom of this Moon.(...)the Dark Night of the Soul. but the best men, the true men, do not consider the matter in such terms at all. Whatever horrors may afflict the soul, whatever abominations may excite the loathing of the heart, whatever terrors may assail the mind, the answer is the same at every stage: "How splendid is the Adventure!"
 
 
diz
11:50 / 10.08.04
given that She-beard is still at large

i don't think that She-Beard is actively going to do anything. she seems more like some kind of Gnostic Sophia, a feminine wisdom figure for Seaguy to quest after, then an active hero in her own right. she already sees the situation clearly, and is basically waiting at that point of enlightenment for Seaguy to break free.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:56 / 10.08.04
Excellent interpretations.

The Book of Thoth quote you give is amazing. It moved me as I read it (seriously). Thanks for that.
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
15:09 / 10.08.04
There's also another way to understand the story in Seaguy:
Comic Fans = Superheroes (Well, not just comic fans, also toys, fantasy, sci-fi, etc)
Superheroes are opressed by Mickey Eye culture to stop being heroic, convincing them that their ideals (and costumes ) are stupid. Like this, many fans feel that they are repelled by their culture, because they think that society thinks that they are stupid for liking the things they like. Also, since the Mikey Eye corporation's plan is to eliminate the creativity (maybe for eliminating potential competitors) maybe they are kidnapping kids to expose them to the process they exponed Seaguy and Doc Hero at the end of episode 3. Or maybe to make Xoo out of them. Maybe Xoo is the thing they extracted from Jack Frost's friend on that institution in Invisibles vol.1.
(or the copletely opposite stuff, what they left in him, whatever created that submission state)

"Acomplished" Comic Fan = The Mummy on the Moon
With acomplished I mean a fan who then does its own comic.
The Mummy is an acomplished hero (he lived is adventure, made the Moon and put it in orbit) so:
Comic done by acomplished fan = the moon
The moon is symbol of creativity, that's why the chunks off the moon destroyed the Mikey Eye helicopters (creativity destroys Mikey Eye).
Finally, Mikey Eye bought the moon from the mummy, giving him sand (worthless). Think what Marvel did to Kirby's creations.

Even more rant to come.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:19 / 10.08.04
Nice!
 
 
Warewullf
17:20 / 10.08.04
I don't know if this has been mentioned before but I was really creeped out by the very last page which shows the moon with a huge eye on it. A gigantic eye in the sky, watching everything we do. Fucking horrible.

All the more creepy because I missed it on first reading.

"There is no good excuse on God's earth for this kind of talk..." = best bit of dialogue I've read in ages.

The art on this issue was amazing as well.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:26 / 10.08.04
Sorry, Nonexistent Man, could you run that one past me again? How is the Most Boastful Pharoah Of All like a comics writer, rather than say an architect, a film director, or perhaps a Pharoah?
 
 
FinderWolf
18:15 / 10.08.04
OK, some more points that I wanted to rave & praise before I emotionally put Seaguy #3 to bed in my mind...

This issue was just so good, I've re-read it several times now and found new little nuances and details upon each reading. And some moments are just always amazing no matter how many times I've read it.

The shot of the crab sitting on the XOO can with Seaguy's note for help in it at the bottom of the sea is just hilarious.

Evoking Grant's hypersigils: "I'll write us out of this sargasso deathtrap somehow."

All the crap piled in the mummy's tomb, stuff like doll's heads and 13th birthday cards...just great.

The yipping is so joycore!!!

"This must be one of the one or two wonders of the world!" Seaguy's world is so bleak that the 7 or 8 wonders of the world have been watered down in common parlance to maybe one or two at best.

"...the secret origin of the moon." Just a priceless way to put it.

I never get tired of reading (and even voicing out loud) the Pharaoh's "MOKK" and "LLAA"

What's the deal with the Pharoah's tail in the scene with his hot annoyed wife? He later mentions that the war between Z. and him has gone on for a long time, even mentioning that Z./Mickey Eye is so evil as to eat a proud man's tail. Any theories on this? Is it a real tail or fake/costume thingie, like his gothlike affinity for funeral rags? (which is also hilarious -- "Some people are just born mummies...I read it somewhere...it's true...")

I think I see a few monkeys kneeling to the Pharoah in the shot with the huge moon in the distance?

The pic of the moon being "launched" is truly amazing.

Someone in the posts about issue 1 mentioned naming the heroes in the battle with anti-Dad. I had named Robomonkey Chimpanzo (before I knew his Grant-given name) and I had named Jiminy Mimic The Dapper Grasshopper. Other names I took a shot at were Rex Cactus, The Red Bull (of course), Carbonite, and the Gnome 8 (that's how many I counted, anyway).

The butterfly just shows up out of nowhere all of a sudden when the Mummy says his heroic "for tonight, five heroes must turn the moon!" What makes the other 2 jackals heroes, I wonder? It's great when Seaguy is all "I'm a failure, I'm no hero" and the Mummy's says "Any kind will do for my bloody purposes." And when the butterfly says "I flew from earth to moon in one breath" (and we later see the boastful butterfly wheezing on his return), we're not quite sure what to make of the butterfly. I remember thinking "Oh, I like this butterfly, this butterfly's gonna be a real good guy!" when I first read this.

The jackal giving Seaguy his headdress/necklace/whatever for saving him. Excellent.

SG being bitten by the Zullibdig beetle - much is made of this. Hmmmm.....
 
 
---
20:56 / 10.08.04
A couple of things i noticed are that the room Seaguy is in with the screens looks like it's modern entertainment, the imaginative content has been taken out of it and it's been largely used just for profit (I-Pol and it's plans) and that Seaguy had a Fish to start with : Fish-Water-Unconscious, and then he returns from being re-programmed with a Parrot : Bird-Air-Conscious.

So i think this could mean that he's still conscious of what I-Pol and Seadog are doing.

Also if Nonexistent man is right, then the Moon being taken over by I-Pol could be pointing to original creative fiction being taken over by the watered-down fiction of the money making people, fiction that isn't for inspiration, but for profit.
 
 
---
21:10 / 10.08.04
Something a bit more obscure could be the Snailshell in the other room that we see.

This could be pointing to the more occult minded that this is the place where they make the shells, the fake programmed personas that society projects onto us if we refuse/don't know how to make ourselves. A bit like, or just like Invisibles 1 where the guy talks about making them into round pegs for round holes, that type of thing.

Kingdom of shells/qlippoth, etc.

"It's good to see he's coming out of his shell."

That type of thing too. (don't know of your familiar with this in America, coming out of your shell is the equivalent of getting over your shy phase or whatever, sign of growing up, confidence, maturity etc.)

So possibly, Seaguy is coming out of his shell, his fake programmed persona, and into the real world.

One thing i didn't put in the last post : the Parrot could be a sign of his heightened perception too, with Chubby-Fish-Unconscious being Seaguy's deeper mind that stops him from forgetting the sham he's in.

"They'll try ta make you forget." Chubby reminds his surface persona what's really going on.
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
15:35 / 11.08.04
Sorry, Nonexistent Man, could you run that one past me again? How is the Most Boastful Pharoah Of All like a comics writer, rather than say an architect, a film director, or perhaps a Pharoah?
It´s just a comparison, but not an isolated comparison, it´s a comparative structure; you have to consider: Hero = Comic Fan, "Acomplished Hero" = Comic writer or artist (We know the mummy is a hero because the he says "for tonight, five heroes must turn the moon!"; one is Seaguy, other is the butterfly, other two are the Anubis guys, and the other is him; and we know he's acomplished because made the moon and put it in orbit); and we know Mikey Eye wants to eliminate the heroes (or at least making them stop doing heroic stuff), so they are pressed by their Mikey Eye-influenced culture; that's the way many comic fans feel about our culture, witch includes its society, etc (And for those people, if there's still left any of them; It's all in your fucking head, society doesn't even care about what you like or dislike). That's the link between all the parts of the comparisson, feeling pressed! I don't see many architecture fans (for the lack of a better term) feeling that society is pressing on them.
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
15:45 / 11.08.04
Also; check out the last page of issue 3 and compare it with the first of issue 1; Seaguy and Death's position and dialog is inverted; maybe this time Seaguy is gonna loose and die because death cheats on him?

Shebeard reminds me of Ishtar, babylonian goddess of love and war, sometimes depicted with a beard (I think, can't remember too well)

b>Also if Nonexistent man is right, then the Moon being taken over by I-Pol could be pointing to original creative fiction being taken over by the watered-down fiction of the money making people, fiction that isn't for inspiration, but for profit.

Exactly.
 
 
Sekhmet
16:10 / 11.08.04
Gus - ooh, the Moon card - the tears of flame - the howling jackals - I had totally not made that connection, bless you bless you bless you! The card of dreams, visions, ill omens, deceit, illusions, and the awakening of the unconscious... So maybe Seaguy may be represented by the little shellfish rising out of the water, moving from the underwater world of unconsciousness (represented by Chubby, who only has seven seconds of memory) to consiousness, in the open air (represented by Lucky). And the empty snail shell would then definitely represent the molting of his character armor... so it's a progression from a state of infantile innocence, at the beginning, where all he's interested in is eating and drinking Xoo, it's the oral stage of development... (*dribbles off, muttering about Freud, Leary, and Wilhelm Reich*)

Must make something coherent out of this...

Vertzebelion the butterfly has to be some kind of demon, or a nephilim or something... It sounds like a Biblical Hebrew name; Vert-zeb-bel-lion, ve-ret-zeb-el-ion... It's impossible to translate Hebrew using Google, apparently; anyone speak Hebrew around here?

So a lot of this is obviously anti-patriarchy/corporate control. We have Anti-Dad the supervillain, who looks like a dark inversion of Lady Liberty - a bad oppressive tyrant father figure; we have the mummy emperor (who refuses to die and allow his son and granson to succeed him, and practically destroys Egypt building the moon-tomb) - a bad oppressive tyrant father figure; we have Seadog, who is like a father figure to Seaguy but is secretly head of the I-Patrol, so, a bad oppressive tyrant father figure; and we have Mickey Eye, the all-seeing, all-dominating, all-owning aspect of the corporate world/patriarchal monotheistic tyrant deity. All these figures stand against free will, romance, love, and procreation; they're about building edifices and theme parks to their own glory, and dominating people. The Mickey Eye people taking over the moon from the mummy is a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". Just as the mummy is ready to no longer watch the Earth (since Anti-Dad's fall crushed his favorite continent), Mickey Eye steps in and the moon itself now watches... The pyramid on the moon has no eye on its capstone, didja notice? But now the moon is ONE BIG EYE. Watching everything. World's biggest satellite camera, ha ha.

{Aside: The flag Seaguy is wearing on Easter Island is actually the Chilean national flag. (Note that the red band goes all the way across the bottom, whereas the Texas flag's red band is interrupted by the blue field with the star.) Easter Island being off the coast of Chile, this makes sense, and is therefore suspect, since nothing else in that damn sequence makes sense...}

Brain bubbling. Must re-read entire trilogy immediately.
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
15:04 / 12.08.04
Posted by me:
He (Seaguy) calls Death Gondolier (he forgot about Death, meaning he's still innocent, still ignorant about the price he might pay for playing the game,(the risk);
I thought about this; nobody calls the gondolier "Death" in issue 3, (I quote Seadog: "Well... we can still rely on silly games with the gondolier to keep Seaguy out of trouble. At least old bones is still good for something").
Maybe Seaguy calling Death gondolier isn't a bad thing. Maybe the gondolier isn't really Death, it's really Mickey Eye's intent to calm down the desires of Seaguy of having an adventure; in issue 3, Seaguy realises that and that's because he calls death gondolier. Besides, following the Tarot logic, death its a symbol of change, and since they played chess every week and Seaguy always win, nothing changed. Maybe he isn't death. And maybe Chubby isn't really dead!!! They "killed" him to scare Seaguy out of the adventures. I have my reasons to believe the real death is the giant beetle on the moon (he's the risk on the moon tarot card - maybe risk of death?-). I also have a theory about the milk he's in (taht ties with what I wrote here) but I might be reading too much into it.

In the cover of issue 1 the moon crying red tears isn't the only tarot symbol. We got the wheel of fortune (good fortune) at the left and the tower (bad fortune) at the right.

The snail shell comes from one of the superheroes fighting Anti-dad in issue 1

And if the talking horse died in issue 1, how come we see him alive on issue 3?

It makes sense that he restarts his normal life after being bitten by the beetle (symbol of death and rebirth, change) Quoting one I-Policeman when they're making seaguy forget: "Nobody actually thinks you're crazy... you just got bit by a crazy thing"
 
 
FinderWolf
13:38 / 13.08.04
OK, one Seaguy art question for Cam I've had since issue 1 and kept forgetting to ask:

In the "SG" logo on Seaguy's chest, in many shots there seems to be a little dot just to the right of the "S", in between the "S" and the "G". It kinda looks like Cam always wants this in there but only fits it in in panels where the logo is large enough to warrant it. So I ask you, Cameron -- is this always intentional? If so, what's the thinking behind adding this dot, as opposed to just the SG without the dot?

Silly question, but I was curious.
 
 
Gus
08:31 / 16.08.04
Glad I could be of help, Sehkmet. I like your interpretation (the whole patriarch-tyrant recurring theme). I think Morrison definetly used a lot of Tarot symbolism in Seaguy, it's just that it's less obvious (and, arguably, less important) than in many of his other works. It's not overtly occult, the way the Invisibles are, for example.

It can be interesting to reread another Moon-themed comic, Promethea #14 for a different vision of the occult meanings associated with the lunar realm (death, the underworld, the unconscious, dreams, fantasy, deception, the stepping-stone to the divine realms). Especially striking is the last page of the previous issue, with a full-page panel of Promethea solemnly sailing towards the Moon on a egyptian barge with a beetle-design on it, piloted by the boatman/gondolier of the underworld: Charon. There's even a pinkish sea serpent poking out of the water in the foreground. Compare it with the last page of Seaguy #1, with a full-page panel of Seaguy and Chubby (and Xoo) joyfully, foolishly sailing into the Moon at full-speed.

As for the butterfly: it's another symbol of change, transformation and resurrection (due to the whole caterpillar thing). It was often used in antiquity as a representation of the human soul on its journey to the underworld, paradise etc... It can be found carved on certain ancient tombstones. The ancient Greeks called the butterfly "Psyche", the same word as for "soul". As such, it is natural that it can travel to the lunar realm on its own.

Nonexistent's comment about Ishtar and Shebeard is correct. Ishtar is indeed sometimes represented with a beard, in her assyrian aspect as the Lady of Battles(!). In fact, the type of curly beard drawn on her is typical of mesopotamian art (look at statues of Gilgamesh, for example) so I think it's deliberate.

Also (and maybe contradictorily) the idea of her as a kind of Sophia figure is also probably a good guess. Beards are a symbol of wisdom, which is what "Sophia" means. Also, Beard in french is "Barbe" (from the latin "Barba"). Remember that "Bearded Stone" is one possible translation of "Barbelith" (Barbelo, of course, is a gnostic entity/concept: the first creative thought of the unknowable Godhead, the womb of the world, the "Sophia Above", mother of the "Sophia Below"). I think she fulfills the role of salvation/enlightement mechanism which Barbelith itself serves in the Invisibles. Only here she walks among men, instead of being hidden far away in the heavens, she is the Sophia Below.

In this interpretation, Seaguy would seem to be operating according to the rules of a different world. In the Invisibles universe, Barbelith is orbiting right behind the Moon, ready to help those who hear her message. But in Seaguy's universe, there is NOTHING AT ALL behind the Moon. There is no buoy, no lifeline to pull you up out of the waters. And so he falls back, he cannot escape his world and is replunged into it anew, the cycle repeats. He fails to understand that what he seeks is right there next to him, or perhaps he lacks the courage to truly face it. Note that he dares not approach Shebeard, but he finds it easy to muster the courage to launch off into wild fantastic adventures, when all he really needs to do is talk to that girl.
 
 
---
09:08 / 16.08.04
That's an amazing explanation Gus.
 
 
invisible_al
10:29 / 16.08.04
I'm kind of seeing She-Beard as the No. 6 figure here, does she know exactly whats going on? Or at least have some idea of the situation? I'm gettting a vibe of no. 2 sparring with no. 6 between Seadog and She-beard.

And hang on wasn't that donkey killed by falling moon rock in issue one?

Damm, will just have to wait until the next series. Which they'd better print, damm their eyes...
 
 
Ben Danes
11:04 / 16.08.04
Apparently, not only has it been decided that Seaguy will be getting a trade, but that it is already on the schedule, which considering it's DC must mean something, given how traditionally slow they are with their trades. So yay for this.

Also, there's plans for a Grant Morrison omnibus or something, apparently collecting stuff like Kill You Boyfriend and other little bits.

Oh, and Cameron's doing a What If? issue with Ed Brubaker for Marvel. I forgot what the title is but. I never liked the old What If at all, but I might have to pick this up given the two blokes doing it.

From Comicon Pulse's Wizardworld news.

Carry on.
 
 
Triplets
11:43 / 16.08.04
Yeah, that donkey did get its shit ruined in Issue 1.

But as we can see The Eye can create all sorts of talking animules.

One of Seaguy's former buddies? Nah.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:11 / 16.08.04
BrettE, thanks for the updates -- can't wait for the Seaguy trade and for the Kill Your Boyfriend reprint.

Gus, that was amazing. My nephew is named Gus and you've just added another reason I like the name Gus. Seaguy will go on death-defying crazy adventures to the moon but all he really needs to do is be brave enough to just talk to the girl. Brilliant.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:13 / 18.08.04
*bump* to see if Cameron can answer my question about the mysterious oft-appearing dot in the "SG" logo on his chest.
 
 
_Boboss
11:18 / 19.08.04
perhaps try holding your breath while you await an answer. it'll make your worry over this, if i may, piddling matter disappear all the sooner.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:37 / 19.08.04
hey, I was curious about it, I didn't say I was staying up late at night "worrying" about it. Let a man have his weird art questions.
 
 
_Boboss
12:59 / 19.08.04
sure sure sun, no aggro intended. sjust - it might make the waiting more fun!
 
 
CameronStewart
13:55 / 19.08.04
When I was a kid I learned to draw the Superman "S" shield by learning the shapes of the yellow negative areas - I didn't think of it as a red S on a yellow background, I just memorized those yellow shapes. Weird. Anyway, when it came time to design Seaguy's emblem I decided to take a similar approach for fun. As I wsa playing around with the shapes I noticed that one of them resembled a little fish, so I added an eye, which is the dot that you noticed in some of the closer views.

 
 
CameronStewart
13:57 / 19.08.04
P.S. - Yes, I am a terrible designer.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:15 / 19.08.04
Actually, I think that's very cute. Ah, Seaguy - he loves the little fishes... And then they die.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
15:23 / 19.08.04
that's funny... i read other artists saying that about superman as well, that their first visual understanding of the logo was of the two fish shapes, and that even when they realized it was an S, they continued to draw it that way, rendering the negative space first. in the introduction to some superman comic -- was it alan moore's? -- was when i read that, don't remember the artist.
 
 
Mr Tricks
15:39 / 19.08.04
When I was a kid I learned to draw the Superman "S" shield by learning the shapes of the yellow negative areas - I didn't think of it as a red S on a yellow background, I just memorized those yellow shapes.

Scary, but I rememebr John Byrne saying almost the exact same thing way back when he revamped superman. He event did a sort of spoof comic where superman has 2 fish on his chest shield. Appariently he's also color blind so he never saw the red & yellow as red & yellow either.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:41 / 19.08.04
See? I knew there was a story there! And I thought it would have something to do with the famous "Superman's 's' is two fish swimming past each other" image. Thanks Cam - that's fun to know that about the process of the SeaGuy chest logo!
 
 
LDones
19:10 / 19.08.04
That notion is where the abstracted 'Three Yellow Ovals' on the chest of the Superman from the 853rd Century in DC One-Million comes from, I believe. I liked the idea that as time passed, those three yellow spaces (the third is below the 'S') would become the symbol for Superman, rather than simply the 'S' itself.
 
 
■
22:35 / 29.08.04
Gosh, lots happened on this thread without my noticing!
Anyway, just thought I'd point out that Titan are currently subbing a Seaguy TPB for January release... It might just be DC putting their toes in the water to see what the market is like, but I guess asking your bookshops for a copy might help boost demand enough to get it released.
 
 
Sensual Cobra
16:43 / 04.09.04
I've got a review of Seaguy #1-3 on Popmatters, here. There's no discussion board there, so if anyone has comments, feel free to post 'em here.
 
 
Billuccho!
17:32 / 04.09.04
Methinks you mean Here. Your HTML must've been screwy, or... something.
 
  

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