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This Planet Earth (You'all may never speak to me again)

  
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
17:29 / 07.07.04
I don't know when it became more important that Barbelith be safe than that it be transformative.

Ah, well. I think that's where there is a degree of confusion. I think we mean different things by "safe". By "a safe space", I mean a place where people can feel that they can say things and be things that they may not be able to say or be elsewhere. To me, that *is* transformative,and quite wonderful, and the extent to which we have managed to maintan it through people ranting about baby-killing Bengalis, workshy scrubbers, sinister Jewish conspiracies and attention-seeking woofters is something I think we can all be proud of.

Conversely... saying that you don't mind gay people, but why do they have to have Pride marches and expect us all to approve of it, or that men who have sex change operations are fooling themselves if they claim to be women,because they are biologically male, in't they? Safest thing in the world. Safe as houses. You have *literally* millions of people backing you up. JAMM could have done that in almost any environment in his locale and been pretty safe,I ween.

As such, the *safety* to make such a statement without aggressive confrontation is not something I feel it is very important for Barbelith to maintain.

Now, whereas I am seeing "transformative" as something inherent in the possibilities of being yourself in the company of others, and also in seeing a group of people who have decided not to tolerate the low-level bigotry and intolerance that buzzes like a fly-killer across so many lives,I think you are seeing transformative in terms of somehow curing or saving JAMM, either from his homo/transphobia or, I think more probably, from his low self-esteem.

Now, I disagree with this analysis on a number of levels. I do not believe that this ignorance is necessarily a product of low self-esteem rather than simply one of ignorance.I do not believe that attention-seeking through making ill-informed statements is necessarily a function of self-loathing, or that self-destruction and ignorance cannot live in harmonious autonomy in a single breast. Nor do I believe that hugs and puppies would have worked any better, since JAMM has showed no interest (did I say this already?) in even takign to time to click on a link that has been provided for him, to read pre-chewed gender/queer rights discussion.

Ultimately, I don't believe that it is the function of Barbelith to "transform" or "save" people. If it happens, that's great. But it is a place where there is very little contact, there is no compelled contact, and there is no therapeutic set-up. Barbelith can change people - it has certainly changed me - but I don't see why it should be expected to transform people, or why we should either want or be expected to change our behaviours in order to make a concerted attempt *to* transform people. Would JAMM have reacted any differently if we had given him a kitten before explaining about sex and gender? Seems unlikely, since he had decided to write off any response as the actions of "knee-jerk PC wankers", on surprisingly little evidence. Simply put, if the entire trend of somebody's life so far has not predisposed them to be open to the possibility of being wrong or of those who are not agreeing with them not just doing so to be difficult, I doubt that a bit of electronic communication is going to help. As I say, if you want to test that hypothesis, PMing JAMM is probably for the best, and I wish you luck. However, right now the only thing or person in this thread which we know to be transformative is Starscream.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:49 / 07.07.04
(this is not to say, btw, that I don't see a transformative capacity in that sense as appropriate to or ever achievable on Barbelith, only that I don't see a valid dichotomy here)
 
 
Ganesh
18:29 / 07.07.04
Agreed. On a more personal note, when online, I reserve the right to eschew the responsibilities of attempting to 'transform' someone's obnoxious, bigoted viewpoint, in favour of merely venting (rather than swallowing) my own anger at the aforementioned viewpoint. If I'm not actually being paid to sublimate my rage into constructive, 'transforming' engagement, increasingly I can't be bothered. I have neither the energy nor the Blair-esque faith in my own persuasive capacity - and, sometimes, it's not about the bigot. Sometimes, my own feelings come first.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
06:50 / 08.07.04
Well, only six of the seven pages of shitstorm that I predicted. However, given the current state and position of this thread and taking into consideration that arguments/discussions contained herein, I would think that this is a good place to lock this thread or move it to the Headshop. It seems fair to say that it has far exceeded the bounds of Conversationality and this is not the place for the circular trading of theory blows.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:23 / 08.07.04
There has been, as far as I know, no discussion of theory in this thread to speak of. Gender politics, homophobia, transphonbia, yes, but not much theory. If anything, it might logically go to the Policy. Personally, I don't want it in my nice shiny Head Shop, and will continue to maintain that unless severe edits are approved. It would make more sense to put it in Policy, as it largely concerns how to deal with homophobic and transphobic posts on Barbelith.

Otherwise, I see no reason t move it, really, or to lock it. And I don't see anything much in the way of a shitstorm, either - some shouting at the start, followed by a decent degree of well-reasoned discussion. To call the last three or four pages a shitstorm would demand a very low setting of the conflict bar...
 
 
gornorft
13:10 / 08.07.04
The best response I've seen so far that actually has anything to do with my reality is "JAMM perceives and acknowledges the world, but it has interest for him only in so far as it makes him feel bad. So he finds ways to poke it with sharp sticks." If everyone just paid attention to this then perhaps the whole thing would have made more sense to you all (abbreviated to "y'all", I admit wrongness in my original version, sorry, I was pissed). I did mention that I was in a bad mood at the time, right? Stabbing at the world with pointy sticks is what makes me feel better when I'm in a bad mood, although this is not justification for offending people, I know.

Sorry, again.

Yes I do have friends in the real world and no, contrary to the forums' generally expressed belief, they do not consider me to be an emotional dwarf or mentally unstable. I sent, by email, a copy of my initial rant (and yes, I knew it was a "rant" when I posted it, most of it not based on reality anyway - I've never had that conversation with a Greenpeace operative f'rinstance, it was just something I wrote for my own amusement several months ago based on how I imagined a conversation with one might go should I be approached whilst in a bad mood and feeling belligerent - I'm famous among those who know me personally for my ability to rant on any given topic) to several friends of mine, those who share my love of the internet and the interactivity of the "forum" (including both a gay male and a gay female, should that matter, which it doesn't to me) and their resposes were all variations on a single theme: "God, you WERE in a bad mood! *L*". But then, they know me.

In a way I appreciate that some of you have posted links from which I could learn more about the associated themes of gay and lesbian rights and parades, transexualism etc. No I have not clicked on a single one of them. No I'm not sorry to have not done so, as that action would run contrary to the belief that I expressed in the first place that so many people seem to have had a problem with. I don't CARE about sexuality. At all. This is the central point that almost everyone seems to have misunderstood.

To direct me to a website or a discussion with information about the thoughts/beliefs/history/whatever for/of any particular sexual orientation is to try to make me engage and/or care about said orientation and, as I thought I'd made perfectly clear, I have no desire to care about such things. I prefer to judge people on their actions as a friend/associate/enemy/person. Sexual orientation is not a necessary criteria upon which to formulate an opinion on somebody and no link I follow is going to convince me to judge a person differently according to their beliefs in anything that may run contrary or otherwise to my own peculiar beliefs, such as they are. Shit, I have a friend who believes in L. Ron Hubbard's Church of Scientology but I still love her to death because she is a fabulous person. I have a friend, a lesbian, who, when I confronted her about the non-existent grammatical difference between "gay" and "lesbian" just laughed and called me mad. I guess it's all in the delivery and, I admit, in the case of this topic my delivery was, apparently, bad.

As has been pointed out, I knew full well that I was going to piss people off, or else I wouldn't have worded the title as I did. What exactly was going through my mind at the time I cannot recall to be honest but, even now, after all these hostile responses, when I read it back to myself I just laugh and wonder why anyone took it so seriously. But then, I know me too.

I have, and will have, nothing more to say on this or any other topic. There is no point addressing any further comment or material directly to me as I shan't be returning to read it. If it makes you feel better to think that you have won and that I've skulked off with my tail between my legs, beaten, then fine, think so. The reality is, however, that ever since I stopped using forums for reasons other than light banter and frivolous fun, I have found them increasingly unhealthy for me. I don't really know why this is but it doesn't necessarily have to matter. I can, after all, just stop.
 
 
Ganesh
13:31 / 08.07.04
Okay, bye.
 
 
illmatic
13:46 / 08.07.04
I hate to shout at the back of a departing bus, but the discussion has never been about who you like personally, or how you judge people. A lot of it has been about accepting other people's defintions for themselves rather than imposing your own. Pity you've failed to grasp that and are still refusing to think about it. I could go on at length but I feel like I'm standing in this bus depot all alone, and it's about to close.

'Bye.
 
 
Nobody's girl
14:00 / 08.07.04
I see this thread as neither a "witch hunt" nor a "hounding out"

Yet, as we can see JAMM has left the building and guess what? It appears he has left here learning jack-shit about discrimination. Good job, guys.

Damn I love getting to say "I told you so".
 
 
Cat Chant
14:08 / 08.07.04
Just to make the point again: I don't give a fuck whether JAMM learns anything, and a few other people have made it clear that they don't either.

You may think the best use of your energy is to direct it nurturingly and painstakingly at one bigot at a time, nobody's girl; I think my time and energy is too precious (and too large a proportion of it is already spent defending myself against homophobia, transphobia, environmental disaster and stupidity) for me to bother.
 
 
Nobody's girl
14:14 / 08.07.04
You may think the best use of your energy is to direct it nurturingly and painstakingly at one bigot at a time, nobody's girl; I think my time and energy is too precious (and too large a proportion of it is already spent defending myself against homophobia, transphobia, environmental disaster and stupidity) for me to bother.

Fair enough. But perhaps you wouldn't have to spend so much time defending yourself from phobia's of all distinctions if you were a bit more proactive in stopping discrimination? Just a thought.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:19 / 08.07.04
Yet, as we can see JAMM has left the building... Good job, guys.

Thanks!! It was my pleasure!
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
14:30 / 08.07.04
Hooray, we lost a moron!
 
 
.
15:36 / 08.07.04
Hooray, we lost a moron!

But are left with so many...
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
15:43 / 08.07.04
Um, no, not really, little anonymous dot-person. I can't recall another post that spewed forth such piffle for quite a while (barring the innercircle-fest).

Feel free to contribute your thoughts and opinions and explain why you feel JAMM is so hard done by. By his own admission, he couldn't care less about learning more about trans/queer issues, so it's no big loss, actually.
 
 
Seth
15:51 / 08.07.04
I will go to his house to love him and save him.
 
 
Papess
15:53 / 08.07.04
I hate this thread. What a waste of everyone's time.
 
 
.
16:11 / 08.07.04
I'm not saying that JAMM is hard done by, he acted like an arse and got a kicking. Fair enough.

But there are a few people on this thread who are just as obnoxious, sanctimonious, passive-aggressive, and unhealthily prejudiced in their own ways. People in glass houses and all that.

Anyway, I've got no desire to argue the point, so I'll shut up now.
 
 
the cat's iao
17:58 / 08.07.04
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:56 / 08.07.04
I've never had that conversation with a Greenpeace operative f'rinstance

Never would have guessed. It appears that JAMM has won every argument he has ever had with the people in his imagination.

Good for him!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:53 / 08.07.04
Yet, as we can see JAMM has left the building and guess what? It appears he has left here learning jack-shit about discrimination. Good job, guys.

I realise it must be quite hard to read the small print from the top of that very high horse, NG, but JAMM made it clear, again, that he does not *care* whether he is making LGBT people unhappy or uncomfortable, *and never has*. Because it doesn't matter to him. He doesn't think it is worth thinking about sexuality. Which means he has a hall pass to upset and offend whomever he likes.

It's lovely that you want to give him a great big tolerance huggle, but he doesn't care about your tolerance. Tolerance is not relevant to him.

The words run from left to right and then back to left again.
 
 
Ganesh
07:20 / 09.07.04
For future reference, JAMM (if your shade is lurking around the empty depot - in order to change your online name, say), I feel obliged to point out that taking the time to start a long online rant about homo/transsexuals may not be the best way to demonstrate one's complete indifference to their existence...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:26 / 09.07.04
What are you suggesting? I don't care about sexuality. I just don't care about it *at great length*.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:39 / 09.07.04
But perhaps you wouldn't have to spend so much time defending yourself from phobia's of all distinctions if you were a bit more proactive in stopping discrimination? Just a thought.

Hmm. I think we're probably at cross-purposes here, slightly.

Most of the phobias/fuckwittery that affect my life, and mean that I (like other queer, trans, queer-and-trans-friendly people) continually have to keep my shields up just slightly higher than other people do, doesn't come from individuals - or, if it does, it's in a very mediated form (been published in the Guardian, been proposed as a law, etc). Most of it comes from institutions and/or cultural representations. So just living in the straight world, without dealing with individuals' open or explicit homo/transphobia, tends to be a little tiring and energy-sapping. So I prefer to put the energy I have into building queer alternatives and supporting other queer people - diverting my energy away from the straight world. So, no, converting individuals would have almost no effect on the levels of energy I have to spend defending myself against transphobia, homophobia and environmental fuckwittery. I consider that contributing to queer culture is a way of being proactive in stopping discrimination, and one that works a lot better for me. (IOW, I don't think it's my responsibility to educate homophobes: I think heterosexism gets enough of my resources as it is.)

Here's an analogy, which isn't exact, I know. Imagine you and I live in the same town, and the mainstream bookshop (let's imagine it's independently owned) is refusing to stock gay/lesbian periodicals because the manager is a homophobe. Instead of going and patiently talking the manager round (which might be what you would do), I would rather go and get my books from the lesbian bookshop on the next street, leaving heterosexuality to wither and die without the queer resources that have always sustained it... sorry, got a bit carried away there.

Anyway, so my point is that we probably need both approaches. So sorry if I got snarky with you. Obviously we disagree about the strategy we should use in situations like this, but I got pissed off that you (and Mink, come to that) seemed to assume that everyone who disagreed with you agreed that winning JAMM over was what we all wanted to do, and that we'd failed at it. I mean, okay, so we win JAMM over: is that going to stop the Guardian publishing Julie Bindel's toxic rants, or Will and Grace being so shit, or every advert break, billboard and mainstream Hollywood movie maintaining that heterosexuality is "universal"? Because that's what tires me out, not idiots ranting.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:28 / 09.07.04
To extend the analogy further, then, JAMM is the guy who's walked into that lesbian bookshop and started loudly declaiming that he doesn't see why it should exist, it's pointless and reductive that it does exist, the people who run the shop should never have bothered, although of course it's not that he's homophonic, it's just that he DOESN'T CARE.

Actually, add to that analogy that the person walking into the shop and doing the shouting has previously been a customer, and even on good terms with some of the staff. Because let's face it, while Barbelith isn't, has never and should never be an exclusively queer space, it strives to be, has always strived to be, arguably is and I hope will always be an exclusively queer-friendly space. This has never been a secret.

That's why some of the people here have been so appalled: because they considered that JAMM was a member of the community, who has understood the basic values cherished on the board, and had previously contributed things of worth to the board (although personally, you'd have to point me to 'em). To have been on the board for long enough that people feel they know you, and yet feign confusion when people react negatively to your trans/homophobic statements, demonstrated either considerable dishonesty or considerably poor powers of observation...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:47 / 09.07.04
And, of course, when it was pointed out to our prospective purchaser that actually there were quite a few people who felt that this book shop had a valid reason to exist, and that if he fancied taking a look in some of the many books they had on the subject, refused to on the grounds that if he read any of these boks he would be giving too much attention to the idea that it was worth thinking about something about which he had no opinion and which he believed to be irrelevant, despite standing in the shop, shouting.
 
 
Rev. Orr
13:50 / 09.07.04
At which point, the denizens of the magical bookshop formed a loud and rowdy coffee morning to discuss the shouting man who had left, popping back now and then to see if he was still loved. Much fun was had by all, many fine biscuits were dunked and everyone felt that the world was a nicer, shinier place. At least inside the shop.

Finally sated, they began to huggle.
 
 
Ganesh
00:57 / 10.07.04
And many fantasies were learned on that day.
 
 
the cat's iao
03:36 / 10.07.04
 
 
Jack Denfeld
20:31 / 10.07.04
I don't care if he's had his dick sliced and diced and turned inside out and shoved back up into his abdomen, he's still got Y-Chromosomes so he's still a bloke. He didn't "used to be a man", he's just a bloke with his dick sliced and diced and turned inside out and shoved back up into his abdomen. Get over it. It doesn't matter. Yes, there is "Something About Miriam", he makes a not very attractive man trying to pass as a woman. He still HAS a dick.
If someone decides they want to be a man instead of a woman, or a woman instead of a man, I don't see why it would make anyone angry. What's the harm?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:52 / 10.07.04
Ladies and gentlemen, this is why Mike Robot is King of Barbelith.
 
 
Jub
23:04 / 10.07.04
I thought he was King of Barbelith because there was no problem he could not solve with his fists!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:06 / 10.07.04
That too.
 
  

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