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Mink, you know it *really* doesn't do you any favours when you make these terribly world-weary statements like:
I just can't keep saying this in different words. You either get it now - whether you agree or not - or you don't.
Have you considered, rather than saying it in different words, addressing people's concerns and responding to them as if they were adults to be discussed with rather than children to be explained to? I don't think anyone here doesn't "get it". I think, conversely, that you have fallen into the Platonic trap of believing that if somebody is disagreeing, it is probably because they do not get it, rather than because they do not think it is right.
Now, it strikes me that Deva has nailed it. Since JAMM demonstrated that he was not interested in becoming in any way better informed on the issues, we have pretty much forgotten about him as anything other than an example for discussion of how best to handle posts which, if left unchallenged, would potentially upset and alienate people we want very much to have on Barbelith. This strikes me as a more useful exertion of energy than engaging further with JAMM. If he wants to add anything, to ask for some more information, or to call us all PC wankers again he knows where we are.
As for emotional infancy - I think it is pretty patronising to assume that somebody is expressing views for no other reason than this; even if it is true, we must presumably assume that somebody on Barbelith has signed a hypothetical tick box saying "I am an adult and am generally happy to be treated as such". Again, I think there is plenty of *understanding* of JAMM. Peple have understood his position, disagreed with it, explained why they disagree with it, provided references. People have understood that his opinions might be ill-understood, might be poorly thought out, might be attention-seeking, and have reacted in kind. If you mean that we cannot possibly be mean to somebody in their 30s or 40s until we have ascertained that they are completely emotionally robust and able to cope in a mature and sensible fashion with criticism, then we can try, but I suspect that right now the population of Barbelith would stand at Torquemada, Leap, JAMM, Sirius, Laila and the Fetch. Although Barbelith can be therapeutic, it canot be relied upon as a therapeutic space.
But we are talking about two separate objectives. You want to stop JAMM thinking this way. I think that many others would certainly like this very much, but acknowledge also that JAMM poses little physical threat to Pride marches or transpeople, and is unlikely actually to meet many or be able to think of anything to say if and when he does, so although it would be very nice if he had a think and some more information (see those threads I linked to), to root out every hint of prejudice from his mind is not the only objective of worth, and may in fact detract, at least int he short term, from other objectives, such as making clear that this is the language of prejudice, and that we are not as a group going to create a safe space for that prejudice to be proposed or postulated.
So, different aims. If anyone wants to give JAMM some huggles and draw him out on this, rather than just tell us all that we have handled him all wrong, I think PMs might be the way forward, since there is no way to certificate that he is not going to get called a tosser by one of Barbelith's members in the open field. However, since it has been established that he has no interest in changing, examining or supplementing his opinions with fact, you might be in for a lengthy period of coddling to no great effect. It's your right, however, to take the actions you deem appropriate. |
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